Why Jesus did not have pimples

[D-Lyte]

Originally posted by Andrew
D-lyte n Jesaiah,

Even if what you say abt Job is true (which i disagree), you need to come over to the other side of the cross.

The plain simple fact is that healing is part of the atoning work of Christ. IE CHRIST BORE OUR SINS AS WELL AS OUR PAINS AND SICKNESSES.

That's what all healing evangelists believe. So, you can quote from the OC till the cows come home and give -ve testimonies of people who are sick/not healed but it doesnt change the fact that Christ already paid for our sicknesses and pains 2000 years ago, just as he paid for our sins. It's a done thing. Period.

Now whether one can accept that and walk in the light of it is totally up to him.

As for me and my household, as well as Quaffer, were gonna walk in health and prosperity all the days of our long life.AMEN!

1)  As you say, if it's true concerning God's use of Job's infirmity...then why do I even need to go to the "other side?"  Do you truly believe we have the rights to actually "choose" what to accept and what to ignore even when it comes from God?  Christians = followers of Christ, we call Him "Lord" means we are under Him and "should" put His Will before ours.

2) God is more concern with our spirtual Health than our physical health.  If He concerns on our "pain and sicknesses" as much as atoning for our sins, then how do you explain the fact that most of the apostles died painfully?

3) The Bible is our guideline. IF these so-called "healing evangelists" are able to ignore these sets of rules only concentrate on preaching the Gospel and healing the bodies, then are missing out on the Big Goal of Christ.  What we need is not only to preach the Gospel, but help the new believers grow in Christ spiritually so they may in turn bring glory back to Him. 

4) If it means to walk in "my" own ways and deny His just to walk in your "light," then no thanks

5) For me, I will lay up my treasure in heaven, and pray that my spirit will be healthy and strong enough to do my part.  As long as I'm walking in His will, long life or not doesn't matter. 

 

[Andrew]

sigh, you still dont get it. The reason why Christians who believe in healing believe what they believe is simply becos Christ has already done it on the cross 2,000 years ago. Once you can see that, all arguments cease.

U see, its like debating whether Jesus died for sinners and whether God loves all and wants all to be saved.

I had started a thread called the Double Cure. It's explained there why healing is in the atoning sacrifice of our Lord.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/23201.html

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Andrew
sigh, you still dont get it. The reason why Christians who believe in healing believe what they believe is simply becos Christ has already done it on the cross 2,000 years ago. Once you can see that, all arguments cease.

U see, its like debating whether Jesus died for sinners and whether God loves all and wants all to be saved.

I had started a thread called the Double Cure. It's explained there why healing is in the atoning sacrifice of our Lord.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/23201.html

D-lyte n Jesaiah, 

We are not trying to sluff you off, it's just that we've already gone over ALL of the issues you've brought up.  

I don't believe I've taken Job out of context at all.  Blameless does not mean he had not sin in his life.  It's clearly stated, at the beginning, that Job did what was right because it was right.  Not because it was in his heart but because he was afraid of God. 

Job, instead of correcting his children merely did sacrificing for them.  It seems he was even more of afraid of them than he was of God.  Scripture commands, in the OT, to correct.  Offering sacrifices without correction means nothing.  And, one cannot offer sacrifices for the sins of another. 

Also, if you read the part where God steps in and answers Job, He's pretty ticked.    He corrects Job according to all of Jobs words.  Job was haughty.  He demanded of God that God explain to him why this was happening, because in his own eye's he was without sin.

At the end, in his own words, Job said he had sinned.  After repenting and praying for his friends God forgave and then restored everything that Satan had stolen from Job.

Job was as righteous as righteous could be before Jesus came.  He was not perfect.  He had an attitude problem and God worked it out by letting Jobs own words bring about his distruction.

 

[Ioustinos]

Quaffer,


Your whole argument rested on the fact that Job's trial was caused by a lack of knowledge. But in the scripture we find out that it was all according to God's Sovereign plan that He put Job through a trial. Not a lack of knowledge

Read Chapters 1 and 2 again.


God Bless

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Jessiah,

I've read Job several times.

I still believe what I said. Perhaps you could re-read my reasonings. There were several problems with what Job did or did not do. All boiling down to a lack of knowledge.

Lack of knowledge. He uttered things he did not understand.

 

[Ioustinos]

Originally posted by Quaffer
Jessiah,

I've read Job several times.

I still believe what I said. Perhaps you could re-read my reasonings. There were several problems with what Job did or did not do. All boiling down to a lack of knowledge.

Lack of knowledge. He uttered things he did not understand.

Job uttered things he did not understand AFTER his trial began The trial began when God set out to prove that Job's faith was true, which Satan denied. Job Chapters 1-2

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Job uttered things he did not understand when he offered sacrifices for other peoples sins.

Satan was not denying Jobs faith in God. He was denying that Job's faith was not for nothing.

I don't have the time right now to answer you more adequately. I know that SnuP, Andrew, Hobart and Sunstone have also given thorough responses to the issue of Job.

Perhaps if you are able to search in some of the other threads regarding faith and or healing you will find them.

If they don't answer you before I'm able to get back to you when I have more time I will be more thorough.

Thanks,

 

[Ioustinos]

Quaffer,

You said:

Job uttered things he did not understand when he offered sacrifices for other peoples sins.

Could you provide a passage of scripture in which Job says such? Actually this was a common practice for as the Father of his family he also would serve as the priest and thus it would be his responsibility to do such activities.

You said:

Satan was not denying Jobs faith in God. He was denying that Job's faith was not for nothing.

What you are denying and what you are saying contradict You say that Job's trial was not Satan denying Job's faith but that he was denying that Job's faith was not for nothing. These two statement's are the same thing!!!!


Satan told God that the only reason Job had faith in Him was because God was blessing and protecting him, and that if God were to remove this "hedge" from around him then Job would surely curse God. If this is not denying Job's faith then I don't know what is; for Satan was calling Job's faith disengenuous Satan was claiming that Job's faith did not truely rest upon God, but rather the possesions God had given him.


The same thing happens concerning Job's own life.


God Bless

 

[LouisBooth]

"Job uttered things he did not understand when he offered sacrifices for other peoples sins. "

I'll back up J on this, Job was a man righteous in God's sight, yet he was allowed to be messed up pretty bad, though he was a faithful man.

 

[Andrew]

Job lived in fear, which is sin. He was constantly afraid that his sons might have sinned against God so he kept offering sacrifices for them. And it was not just normal fear, it was great fear for he did say "the thing which I GREATLY feared has come upon me".

And it was not God's idea: Satan came to God -- after Job had opened a doorway to him -- thru his lifestyle of fear. God allowed it. If God was the one behind such things, why wld the need for Satan?

Job wished he had an advocate -- he didn't get one. But we Christians do -- Jesus. So you cant just use job and apply it today leaving out the work of Christ. That is to talk as though Christ did not die.

as we've said countless times, God does allow bad things to happen to good Christians, but that doesnt mean he authored the bad things. How much clearer does the Word have to be? -- Satan comes to kill, steal and destroy, God gives life abundant! God is not the author of confusion!

But yes, God can turn an ugly situation started by the devil around for our good. If the devil throw lemons at us, God can turn it into lemonade for us if we call on him. But that dont mean God threw the lemons at us himself. Do you do that to your kids?

btw: you also need to address the fact the Jesus bore our sicknesses and pains besides our sins. that's a done thing. we dont debate any longer whether Jesus bore and died for our sins, whether he shed his blood for mankind, whether God's will is to save man from hell. So why do we still debate on whether God wants to heal?

 

[LouisBooth]

"Job lived in fear, which is sin. "

What in the world are you talking about? Job did not live in sin. LOL. Have you not read the book of Job at all? He does not live in sin, what a crock. The fear of God is a fear of respect, which you should have for God, and it is also spoken about in the NT, fear God who can destroy your soul don't fear those that can destroy just the body. Andrew, you're way off in left field on this one.

the word used is

03373 yare' {yaw-ray'}

from 03372; TWOT - 907a; adj

AV - fear 59, afraid 3, fearful 2; 64

1) fearing, reverent, afraid

It is used in places like Isa 50:10. The word you're thinking of fear, like a teenage in a horror movie is used in the word
02730 chared {khaw-rade'}

from 02729; TWOT - 735a; adj

AV - tremble 5, afraid 1; 6

1) trembling, fearful, afraid

You can see the contrast in Jdg 7:3.

"but that doesnt mean he authored the bad things. "

No, he did not create "evil" but he allows things you're saying that are "evil" to happen and he causes them sometimes.

 

[Ioustinos]

Andrew,

Job lived in fear, which is sin

Could you provide scripture reference saying that living in fear is a sin? And for that matter what type of fear is sin? For saying fear is a sin is a blanket statement, and it would be nice if you could give some specifics

He was constantly afraid that his sons might have sinned against God so he kept offering sacrifices for them. And it was not just normal fear, it was great fear for he did say "the thing which I GREATLY feared has come upon me".

Job's fear was that of God. He lived the righteous life that he did and made the sacrifices for his children (which was a common practice as the father and thus the family priest) because He feared God. We must fear or reverence God for He is holy and thus we should strive to be holy. Otherwise God may and does chastise His children who go astray. It was the Righteous judgment of God that he feared, and that is why Job could not understand his trial for he had lived a righteous life.

And it was not God's idea: Satan came to God -- after Job had opened a doorway to him -- thru his lifestyle of fear.

And here is where scripture contradicts your view. I will post the scriptures so that you will see the very words of God:

Job 1:8-12
The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
Then Satan answered the LORD,"Does Job fear God for nothing?
"Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
"But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face."
Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:3-6
The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."
Satan answered the LORD and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life.
"However, put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face."
So the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life."

Clearly from the scripture above we see that Job's trial WAS NOT caused by some sort of "sinful fear", but rather it was a test to show that Job's faith was true!!! For God knew that even if Job's belongings and even his health was taken away he would not curse God! The Book of Job is all about God allowing this trial and tribulation to occur in order to prove his faith and Job trying to figure out why this tribulation came upon him since he was a righteous man!


Job trial was not due to sin but because of God's divine plan for his life

 

[Andrew]

"Could you provide scripture reference saying that living in fear is a sin?"

I'm sure that you are familiar with the verse that says "anything that is not of faith is sin" or "perfect love cast out all fear". The fear I'm talking abt is not the "fear of the Lord" which means awesome reverence/worship.

The fear that is sin is eg fearing that you'll lose your job, fearing that you'll die of cancer, fearing that you'll not have enought to eat etc. And this is simply a sin cos when you live in this type of fear, you are not trusting in God, but walking according to the flesh/senses.

"Job 3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me."

I dont think Job was refering to God "coming upon him" here but the troubles. Today, as Christians, if we fear that a certain trouble will come upon us, eg shot by a sniper, then we sin becos we are not trusting the Lord and his Word. If such fear is okay, why does Rev say that the fearful enter the lake of fire (second or first, cant rem). Another place in the Bible (Psalms) says in the last days men's hearts will fail them becos of fear.

quote: "He lived the righteous life that he did and made the sacrifices for his children (which was a common practice as the father and thus the family priest) because He feared God."

I disagree. "for Job said, 'It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts.' Thus Job did continually." Job was fearful that his sons had sinned. Note the Bible does not say that his sons sinned. Job himself said "maybe" they sinned. And bcos of this, he offered sacrifices continuosly. Can you imagine a loved one of yours who's always thinking that you have sinned and is always asking God for your forgiveness on your behalf? Even if that was a 'right' practice then, do we the church do it today. Do we go around thinking others have sinned -- what abt looking at ourselves first, before pointing out splinters in our brother's eyes that may not even be there!

Job continuously feared that his sons may have sinned and thus incur God's wrath. This was his sin and it opened the door to Satan. That's why God had to lift off the hedge becos Job's paranoia opened the door to Satan.

quote: "However, put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face."

so who's idea was it to strike Job? God's? Nope, Satan is speaking here. God just allowed it.

anway, remindme again but what has all this got to do with the fact that Jesus is the spotless Lamb of God -- the topic of the thread? Can we get back to the topic .pls

 

[LouisBooth]

"" 25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me."
"

Reference?

 

[Ioustinos]

I disagree. "for Job said, 'It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts.' Thus Job did continually." Job was fearful that his sons had sinned. Note the Bible does not say that his sons sinned. Job himself said "maybe" they sinned. And bcos of this, he offered sacrifices continuosly. Can you imagine a loved one of yours who's always thinking that you have sinned and is always asking God for your forgiveness on your behalf? Even if that was a 'right' practice then, do we the church do it today. Do we go around thinking others have sinned -- what abt looking at ourselves first, before pointing out splinters in our brother's eyes that may not even be there!---Andrew

Uh, sorry but this makes no sense at all Does your pastor concern himself with your soul? If so then he is sinning because he is fearing that you might not understand enough doctrine or that you might not walk a righteous life! This is the role of a Pastor; that is to concern himself with the state of your soul! The same can be said for Job for as the father he was the family Preist!Do you see how your statement has no effect? Job was concerned for the lives of his children. He was concerned over their souls. This is a natural thing.

Job's trial was not caused by fear but it was God's way of proving his fatih

The same is today, God can allow us to be sick even when we have been faithful and walked a righteous life! Yet bodily sickness does not necessarily equate a lack of faith or disobedience.

 

[D-Lyte]

Let me share what He had reminded me in the past couple days.

"If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from His love, if any fellowship with the Spirit...then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose..." then after more info it goes on to "All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you."

One of the reasons why the Church is divided into so many denominations today is because we all have differently interpretation on the Bible and how Christianity should be practiced. I admit, there are some issues that we stand up for but there are also some we can just "live" with.

I know sometimes we feel that “what I believe is absolutely correct.”  But don’t let that belief cloud our judgment and criticize others.  For the Pharisees of Jesus’ time, their pride on their knowledge of the OT blinded them from seeing what the true Messiah ought to be. Be open to ideas and use our guidebook (the Bible) to test those ideas


And instead of using our "swords" to poke one another telling the other guy "you're wrong," why don't we focus on what we do have in common? That Christ died for us and forgiven us of our sins. Instead of telling each other what we think God is saying, why don't we...as Paul say...allow God to tell us. And when a fellow bro/sis gets sick...let's not justify his faith nor criticize him/her--God will be the judge. Instead of wasting our time debating who’s right and who’s wrong (knowing that it’ll take forever for one side to convince the other), we can focus our time on helping each other grow in Christ, sharing ideas on how to preach our wonderful Gospel, and/or how to defend our belief against the unbelieving world. What do you guys think?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by D-Lyte
Let me share what He had reminded me in the past couple days.

"If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from His love, if any fellowship with the Spirit...then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose..." then after more info it goes on to "All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you."

One of the reasons why the Church is divided into so many denominations today is because we all have differently interpretation on the Bible and how Christianity should be practiced. I admit, there are some issues that we stand up for but there are also some we can just "live" with.

I know sometimes we feel that “what I believe is absolutely correct.”  But don’t let that belief cloud our judgment and criticize others.  For the Pharisees of Jesus’ time, their pride on their knowledge of the OT blinded them from seeing what the true Messiah ought to be. Be open to ideas and use our guidebook (the Bible) to test those ideas


And instead of using our "swords" to poke one another telling the other guy "you're wrong," why don't we focus on what we do have in common? That Christ died for us and forgiven us of our sins. Instead of telling each other what we think God is saying, why don't we...as Paul say...allow God to tell us. And when a fellow bro/sis gets sick...let's not justify his faith nor criticize him/her--God will be the judge. Instead of wasting our time debating who’s right and who’s wrong (knowing that it’ll take forever for one side to convince the other), we can focus our time on helping each other grow in Christ, sharing ideas on how to preach our wonderful Gospel, and/or how to defend our belief against the unbelieving world. What do you guys think?

 

D-lyte,

I would agree for the most part.  However, from my point of view there are people on the forums who desire to grow in certain areas that God is leading them to grow in.  And then there are others on the forums who have already walked through those areas and can possibly ease the struggle of growth by sharing how God brought them through.

Then there are others who seem to think it their duty to warn those who sincerely want to know, to not listen to those who've actually walked the walk their talking.  That's really where the problem lies.

Some, I choose to no longer argue with.  But if I can shed some light in an area where there is darkness (and I'm NOT referring to sin) then I will do so.  If someone wants to tell me I'm wrong then that's their perogative.

I consider it an insult to my God and Savior to say that He Himself suffered with sickness while walking this earth.  I consider it an insult, not to me, but to Him.  What He did on the cross was complete and clean. 

I may suffer with sickness here on earth but it is not His Will.  He died so that I could enter into heaven and spend eternity with Him. 

Included in that sacrifice was my redemption, not only from sin, but from sickness in my body, and in my mind (spirit).  His sacrifice included my soul, my body, and my spirit. 

He did not die to make only 1/3 of me whole.  If that's all I give Him then I suppose that's all I'll get, but I'd rather be whole.  My soul, my body, and my spirit.

I'm sorry that some consider that Truth a threat to the way they live but I will continue to tell others that Jesus was the spotless Lamb of God, just as God declared Him. 

We are NOT at the mercy of our adversary. 

 

 

[LouisBooth]

"Then there are others who seem to think it their duty to warn those who sincerely want to know, to not listen to those who've actually walked the walk their talking. That's really where the problem lies."

Agreed, I would also say there are those that aren't seeking God's will in places and are sticking stubbornly to their own thoughts and not God's on certain subjects.


"I may suffer with sickness here on earth but it is not His Will. "

Case in point. The bible says it might be in his will that you are sick.


"but from sickness in my body"

Wrong. that's not what the bible says.


"He did not die to make only 1/3 of me whole. "

Quaf, you don't seem to get it. The body you are in now is going to PERISH and be remade!!! Thus at this time yes you are 1/3 whole. When you are remade with an imperishable body you will be whole.


"We are NOT at the mercy of our adversary. "

Agreed, but that doesn't mean you don't get sick.

 

[Andrew]

quote:"Uh, sorry but this makes no sense at all Does your pastor concern himself with your soul? If so then he is sinning because he is fearing that you might not understand enough doctrine or that you might not walk a righteous life! This is the role of a Pastor; that is to concern himself with the state of your soul!"

If you are refering to salvation the answer is obviously NO! I'm already saved. If anything, a Pastor wld concern himself with the state of the souls of non-believers.

If you are referng to right living YES, but certainly not by thinking everyday that I have sinned and making sacrifices to God on my behalf just in case I did curse God. I wldnt want such a loony Pastor! And your reasoning dosnt make sense also. My church has abt 9,000 members, how the heck is my Pastor going to make 'animal sacrifices for sins [that may not even exist' for each member daily?

---------------------


Excellent post Quaffer! U can't force others to listen. Up to a point, stop. its up to them cos God wont force belief either. Just look out for those who are want to receive, and then give the 'pearls' to them.

 

[Ioustinos]

If you are referng to right living YES, but certainly not by thinking everyday that I have sinned and making sacrifices to God on my behalf just in case I did curse God.---Andrew

First we no longer make sacrifices for Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. Again you must remember that Job lived during the times of the Old Testament and during such times the father served as priest in the family. Thus it would be his duty to make sacrifices if any were made.

And your reasoning dosnt make sense also. My church has abt 9,000 members, how the heck is my Pastor going to make 'animal sacrifices for sins [that may not even exist' for each member daily?--Andrew

Do you even want me to respond to such an absurd statement? Have you not read about the Old Testament sacrificial system?


The view that Job's trial was God proving his faith is the most common among both evangelicals and believers of Judaism. Only those in th FM hold to the idea that it was some sin of Job's that caused his trial.


God bless