Why is Hell permanent?

[Sadalmelik]

i see no one has produced any scripture, in relation to verses about hell, that specifically says, that they die, but are still alive.....keep looking.

you would think, that had romans or any other verse related to the damned wouldve been able to clear it up by saying.....'the wages of sin is spiritual death, but the wicked will remain alive forever to be punishment " thats actually what your saying, unforunately for you, it doesnt say that.

 

[dollarsbill]

i see no one has produced any scripture, in relation to verses about hell, that specifically says, that they die, but are still alive.....keep looking.

Whom do you suppose will be cast into the eternal fire? Certainly not God's BORN AGAIN people.

you would think, that had romans or any other verse related to the damned wouldve been able to clear it up by saying.....'the wages of sin is spiritual death, but the wicked will remain alive forever to be punishment " thats actually what your saying, unforunately for you, it doesnt say that.

You have ignored the Biblical terms 'death' and 'dead' while still being alive. If you don't know what they mean then the wording 'spiritual death' stands.

 

[Hillsage]

They tend to avoid spiritual death on the level that would put in question other meanings of the word "death" that would add more information as to why hell exists.

I don't use spiritual death because it isn't scriptural.

MAT 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Notice which part of man is missing above "IN HELL"????....the SPIRIT.

If one limits the definition of death to but two instances in scripture then it makes it a lot easier to say.. the flesh dies then the spirit dies.

Not Scriptural. The flesh dies AFTER the spirit DEPARTS...scripturally.

LUK 8:53 And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead.
54 But taking her by the hand he/JESUS called, saying, "Child, arise." :55 And her spirit returned, and she got up at once; and he directed that something should be given her to eat.

Scripture says Jesus her spirit was "called"...not resurrected.

LUK 23:46 Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last.

His spirit left and then his body died.

Spiritual death is not biblical...it is orthodox error. All spirits are eternal...to think you can kill a spirit is to think you could drop 'Casper the ghost' with a 357...ain't gonna happen.

The one definition of death avoided by your group is spiritual separation from God. By throwing away this definition of death, hell then has no meaning because it IS spiritual separation from God.

No, this 'part' of "the group" doesn't use 'Spiritual separation' because it is....ORTHODOX. ...No that's not why...I don't use it because it is UNSCRIPTURAL.

GEN 4:16 Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

I believe Cain was born AFTER Adam/Eve were booted out of THE GARDEN. Nothing was ever said about them being separated from GOD! Orthodox error. The garden was the blessing FROM God as a place for Adam/Eve to live...it was not the presence OF God.

That's why this forum is called UNORTHODOX...and not UNCHRISTIAN.

 

[dollarsbill]

"You have ignored the Biblical terms 'death' and 'dead' while still being alive. If you don't know what they mean then the wording 'spiritual death' stands."

 

[Hillsage]

"You have ignored the Biblical terms 'death' and 'dead' while still being alive. If you don't know what they mean then the wording 'spiritual death' stands."

Looking back at my/your post I see my opinion was backed by scripture and yours is backed by??????....YOUR OPINION. I think I'll stand on scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

A question I have been asking myself lately...

Why is damnation in hell permanent? Why not another chance after a certain duration of punishment?

1. In Matt 10:28 Jesus tells us that God will "destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" -- thus the torment of the lake of fire (second death) will eventually end with the destruction of both body and soul.

2. However - to your point - it is still an eternal punishment - no one that suffers the lake of fire (2nd death) payment for sins will go to haven "later".

The reason is that the only way to get to heaven is through the "New Birth" - to accept God's offer of love and forgiveness. Anyone who does not think God is loving and forgiving in this life - and so rejects the Gospel is not going to be "more convinced of God's love" after suffering some period of time in the lake of fire.

All the wicked will want release from torment - that is not the same as "loving God" or "being born again". Anyone can be made to accept an agreement out of fear, with a gun held to their head - but in God's plan the Gospel is to be offered to those who feel perfectly free to reject it if they so wish.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[dollarsbill]

Looking back at my/your post I see my opinion was backed by scripture and yours is backed by??????....YOUR OPINION. I think I'll stand on scripture.

You still didn't answer the question. What kind of death is this?

Matthew 8:22 (NASB)
22 But Jesus *said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead."

 

[Sophrosyne]

"You have ignored the Biblical terms 'death' and 'dead' while still being alive. If you don't know what they mean then the wording 'spiritual death' stands."

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 

[dollarsbill]

1. In Matt 10:28 Jesus tells us that God will "destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" --

You misquoted the Scripture.

Matthew 10:28 (NASB)
28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[dollarsbill]

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Imagine that, still alive too.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Imagine that, still alive too.

yup... Paul talks about such things a lot in the NT.

 

[Sadalmelik]

You misquoted the Scripture.

Matthew 10:28 (NASB)
28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

and there are those who think God just makes threats, 'as in matthew 10:28", for what other purpose would this statement have been made? answer me that? just to say God is 'able' to do something? give me a break, who wouldnt think God is able to do this? He made us, He could obviously do whatever He wishes, i dont think anyone would need a bible verse to tell us that., fortunate for us, He isnt in the business of torturing....therefore, He warns us of this, cause as in rest of scripture, that says the exact same thing....thats what He is going to do.

 

[Sophrosyne]

You misquoted the Scripture.

Matthew 10:28 (NASB)
28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Personally I think this translation fits better but it is just as much my creation as those who insist destroy = annihilate

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to ruin both soul and body in hell.

 

[Sadalmelik]

psalms30 1 I will extol you, O Lord, for you have drawn me up
and have not let my foes rejoice over me.
2 O Lord my God, I cried to you for help,
and you have healed me.
3 O Lord, you have brought up my soul from Sheol;
you restored me to life from among those who go down to the pit.[a]
4 Sing praises to the Lord, O you his saints,
and give thanks to his holy name.[b]
5For his anger is but for a moment,
and his favor is for a lifetime.[c]
Weeping may tarry for the night,
but joy comes with the morning.


hmmmm, appears to me like another contradiction to eternal hell/damnation...how could the 'punishment' be without end, (certainly a long time), and yet in psalms it states "His anger is but for a moment"?

 

[Sadalmelik]

yup... Paul talks about such things a lot in the NT.

funny you should bring paul up, let me ask you this....if paul was commissioned by God to preach the gospel to all nations, why did paul not preach of hell? youd think such an important subject would have been preached to all the nations, eh?

how much did he preach about hell?

 

[Sophrosyne]

funny you should bring paul up, let me ask you this....if paul was commissioned by God to preach the gospel to all nations, why did paul not preach of hell? youd think such an important subject would have been preached to all the nations, eh?

how much did he preach about hell?

Because unlike the Jews who needed salvation or they would go to hell, Paul letters were to churches of believers (already saved from hell).

 

[Sadalmelik]

if the demands of divine justice are opposed to the requirements of mercy, is not God divided against Himself? If the requirements of mercy are opposed to the demands of the justice of God, can His kingdom stand?

according to mark 3:24 it cannot.

 

[Sadalmelik]

Because unlike the Jews who needed salvation or they would go to hell, Paul letters were to churches of believers (already saved from hell).

uhhhhh....no, wrong answer....the reason is, is that in the early church, early christians, the concept of an eternal hell was not even a thought., the early church, and for hundreds of years thereafter, mainly believed in universalism, and therefore the idea of an eternal hellfire was not preached.

 

[he-man]

uhhhhh....no, wrong answer....the reason is, is that in the early church, early christians, the concept of an eternal hell was not even a thought., the early church, and for hundreds of years thereafter, mainly believed in universalism, and therefore the idea of an eternal hellfire was not preached.

 

[Sadalmelik]

Because unlike the Jews who needed salvation or they would go to hell, Paul letters were to churches of believers (already saved from hell).

are you serious about this? written to the churches, to be disseminated to the people, you left that part out...or were they to keep it in a secret vault somewhere, where only a few priveleged were able to read? come on.....and last i knew, as is the case today, and would assume was the case then, all who claimed to be christians and were 'of the church' as you put it, that makes them all 100% saved? so everyone who professes to be a christian is certainly going to heaven? ok and he/she has nothing more to learn, even if they are truly saved, what about the rest of humanity? are they not also are bretheren? those of the church of then, and now, are only supposed to preach to believers? perhaps you could elaborate a bit more on what you were trying to say, cause the more i try to rationalize what you said, the more im at a loss of words. paul was commissioned to be the apostle to the gentiles, the author of almost half the books in the nt, and not a word about hell....oh he preached about salvation, (INCIDENTALLY THE SALVATION THAT IS THE DELIVERANCE FROM HELL), yet he doesnt mention hell....is that supposed to make sense? cause it doesnt.