Why is God hidden, invisible, unprovable?

[devin553344]

There is a big difference between YHWH in person, and Yeshua revealed in 3 dimensions. The reason YHWH cannot be seen is the same reason why a 2 dimensional person cannot comprehend or see what a 3 dimensional person looks like.
The book "Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions" explores this issue.

Flatland - Wikipedia
The History of Hyperspace: Physics and the Bible: – Lambert Dolphin – Koinonia House

Sure but the universe is only 5 dimensional. And we already observe that using physics.

 

[DamianWarS]

When you appear in the mirror, do you cease to be you? Sounds a bit like the sort of superstition that native peoples had about cameras stealing their souls to me.

A form is finite and God is infinite ergo is without form. When we ask for the form we ask for the finite.

 

[Anguspure]

Sure but the universe is only 5 dimensional. And we already observe that using physics.

The Human Brain Can Create Structures in Up to 11 Dimensions
How many more does YHWH live in?

 

[Anguspure]

A form is finite and God is infinite ergo is without form. When we ask for the form we ask for the finite.

YHWH is formless because we cannot comprehend what He is, but certainly He exists independantly from time and space. He created time and space itself, after all.
Certainly YHWH exists within the bounds of His self. But we are created by His very speech. I don't think the supposed finitude of the Creator is of any concern to us.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I skimmed through another closed thread that was supposed to address why God chooses to be invisible but it was mostly off topic with predictable subjects. I'm starting this new thread on the subject as I'll be addressing it differently. My science oriented perspective does not subscribe to Bible inerrancy and infallibility, multi-universes, god is on another plain of existence, time travel, precognition, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, omnibenevolence, miracles like magic. Note, will resist posts going off topic.
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That no one in modern times has been able to provide certain physical proof of god or even spiritual existences looking back through human history, is the strongest scientific evidence for atheistic resistance to belief in any god. We cannot obviously sense God. The Bible itself states God is invisible and that no one (on Earth) has seen his true essence except the Son. God does not with certainty sensually communicate with us although many believers will claim they can tell in some vague way that God is there guiding their thoughts. But if he exists, God could and may at least on extraordinary occasions do so under conditions that he has carefully evaluated as to be un-provable. Such might be described as un-manifested. It may also be that God as spirit is not visible by our organic visual system. The following Bible verses are examples showing God’s attitude in being secretive, hidden, invisible, un-manifested and how that was even understood at Jesus’s time. As to why, I'll speculate about that later:

Matthew 11:25-27 (NIV)
At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.“
Colossians 1:15 (NASB)
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Mathew 12:38>39 (NASB)
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;
Jhn 5:37 (NASB)
“And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form

Gee, it really is not that difficult. God is Spirit. We are not. We have physical eyes to see the material world. We have mental sight to give us insight into abstract issues - love, beauty, honesty and all kinds of things that are not physical. What we do not have naturally is spiritual eyesight. We cannot see God with the mind or the physical eyes. However, those who are born again gain a new kind of sight. It is the eye of faith. Hebrews 11:1 tells us that. Without faith, no one can see God. So He reveals Himself indirectly, through the creation, via his Prophets, through His Word and of course, through the Lord Jesus. We also know the reason why man is unable to see spiritually:

"the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." 2 Corinthians 4:4.

I have this faculty of spiritual eyesight. God is more real to me than people on the forum. I have a living and active communication with God that is enabled through Christ. I talk to God and Jesus about most aspects of life. I get answers. Sometimes I receive miracles. It is a relationship with the Creator of the universe that I've had for 48 years. God does not have to prove Himself to anyone. Look around you. If evidence were water, you would be drowning in it.

 

[Woke]

Woke, please actually go and read ALL my posts just not the first few sentences of my opening post that are there to show the secular perspective and not necessarily what I believe.

Woke >>>"Your statement that God has not communicated with people in the modern world, is untrue. You can only speak to what you know, and you know nothing about that or your statement would not have been made. "

Davidz777 >>>"God does not with certainty sensually communicate with us although many believers will claim they can tell in some vague way that God is there guiding their thoughts."

You've twisted my statement that he is communicating to one of not communicating which my statement does not state.

As for scientific reasons for God's existence if such were obvious it would be admitted by the secular world of science. Of course they do not and that is the point of the thread, to provide reasons to those in the secular world of science why God would choose to be undetectable unprovable.

I don't always have time to read all posts David. I don't see that I have twisted your words in your first post. You claimed God doesn't with certainty sensually communicate with humans today. I said you are incorrect and don't know that because you personally have not seen it. I can only suppose that's why you are ignorant of the fact it is going on, which is the reason most deny it. I have been sensually contacted by God with certainty, and since I have it makes sense others have. In a similar way written records show the same thing has been happening throughout history. Not in the way you said some tell you God supposedly directs their thoughts, even though scriptures teach we have free will and are free moral agents.

I directed you to prophecy. That is the scientific proof of God's existence. It's not the proof does not exist. It's that many don't accept it. The main reason for that is they just don't want to.

 

[DamianWarS]

YHWH is formless because we cannot comprehend what He is, but certainly He exists independantly from time and space. He created time and space itself, after all.
Certainly YHWH exists within the bounds of His self. But we are created by His very speech. I don't think the supposed finitude of the Creator is of any concern to us.

if he exists in a form no one can see because no one has the capacity to comprehend what he is than that form would transcend all others and work at a higher level. Since we are unable to comprehend it that means we cannot describe it except that it is higher, it also means we can't prove it. We probably would say things like he's in a different dimension or realm.

It's like the flatland story (youtube it if you don't know it). a 2D shape was unable to comprehend a 3D shape when a sphere entered his realm all he saw was a circle that got bigger and smaller and when it spoke he heard it but it was disembodied to him unless the sphere entered his plane so he could see the shape but still only in 2D. Of course, the idea is that although we exist and understand our dimension that perhaps there are dimensions above us that we are unable to comprehend, and when we do see it all we see and explain is based on our own limits so never able to truly see or truly explain.

 

[Halbhh]

Another person that seems to have only read the first lines of my OP. I essentially related what you do...but you need to read my other posts.

It's because of the false dichotomy too many have between 'science' and the Creator (Who is of course creator of nature, thus...the sciences, by definition).

Many assume that if you know and accept mainstream science you must not believe, which is a tragic error on their part, based on faulty assumptions.

All of the mainstream science fits perfectly fine with the Bible, from having read through it fully twice (and soon it will be 3 times), and also from having a hard sciences background (physics), and reading broadly in the sciences. If anything, the more science one learns, the easier it would become to believe in God. It's only a shallow understanding in the sciences, or accepting the false idea that evolution somehow contradicts the scripture (which isn't true), that leads some to wrongly conclude science contradicts scripture.

Many (not a majority, but more than just a few) don't realize the that God creating all of nature means He created the basis of nature, the laws by which nature operates. Physics, thus all the sciences also, is His design of nature.

 

[public hermit]

I'll offer two reasons for why God has chosen to remain hidden, undetectable by the means of detection and understanding we find most productive in a physical world.

The first pertains to the ontology of the Creator in relation to the ontology of the creation. When someone asks for physical proof of God's existence, such as an obelisk made of eternal, indestructable material, they are either 1) asking for what has already been given, or 2) asking for what cannot be given.

Any physical proof we could want is given in the whole of physical reality itself. The whole creation speaks of it's Creator. Obviously, this physical proof is deemed insufficient by some. So, one must venture to ask, "If the whole creation doesn't convince you, how will one aspect within creation convince you?" Chances are, if God did try to prove God's own existence with an obelisk of eternal, indestructible material, peope would just worship the obelisk instead of God. Which, brings us to why it is not possible to prove God with a physical, observable proof.

The Creator and the creation have an asymmetrical metaphysical relation. Creation depends on the Creator; whereas, the Creator is not beholden to anyone or anything. The Creator is not subject to the gaze of creation. Or, to put it in more mundane terms, the Creator is not an object that is subject to the methods and deliverances of human inquiry. You can't put God under a microscope, you can't find God with a telescope, you can't quantify God with a formula. Your means of knowing are not capable. The only way God can be known is if the Infinite is somehow revealed within the context of the finite. As Christians we believe God has done just that in Jesus Christ. In other words, God has not chosen to remain hidden, so much as God is hidden to our ways of seeing. But, out of grace and love, God has revealed God's self to us. So, we are not ignorant of the hidden God.

The second reason God has "chosen" to remain hidden is because we have to be prepared to see God. God is pure Love. We are not just going to waltz into the fully revealed Glory of God, if we have not yet been prepared to enter into the Presence of Pure Life, Pure Love, Unalloyed Goodness. So, as Christians, we believe not only does Jesus Christ reveal the hidden God, but he prepares us to enter into the Presence of the fully-revealed God.

 

[renniks]

The existence of God is obvious to people that are actually seeking him. Someone who is determined not to believe, it's always going to find another explanation for God speaking to them or other miracles. I have had things happen that proved to me that God was talking to me. Someone else who was determined not to believe, would just pass them off as a rather amazing coincidence.

 

[Robin Mauro]

I skimmed through another closed thread that was supposed to address why God chooses to be invisible but it was mostly off topic with predictable subjects. I'm starting this new thread on the subject as I'll be addressing it differently. My science oriented perspective does not subscribe to Bible inerrancy and infallibility, multi-universes, god is on another plain of existence, time travel, precognition, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, omnibenevolence, miracles like magic. Note, will resist posts going off topic.
-----------------------

That no one in modern times has been able to provide certain physical proof of god or even spiritual existences looking back through human history, is the strongest scientific evidence for atheistic resistance to belief in any god. We cannot obviously sense God. The Bible itself states God is invisible and that no one (on Earth) has seen his true essence except the Son. God does not with certainty sensually communicate with us although many believers will claim they can tell in some vague way that God is there guiding their thoughts. But if he exists, God could and may at least on extraordinary occasions do so under conditions that he has carefully evaluated as to be un-provable. Such might be described as un-manifested. It may also be that God as spirit is not visible by our organic visual system. The following Bible verses are examples showing God’s attitude in being secretive, hidden, invisible, un-manifested and how that was even understood at Jesus’s time. As to why, I'll speculate about that later:

Matthew 11:25-27 (NIV)
At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.“
Colossians 1:15 (NASB)
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Mathew 12:38>39 (NASB)
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;
Jhn 5:37 (NASB)
“And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form

It takes a lot more faith to believe that this incredible world and universe is the result af some random explosion (big bang-and where did that come from? And since when does life come from destruction?...as if everything willed and wills itself into being... The only life that comes after destruction is the life that was already there) than to believe in a creator. The whole universe speaks of a creator; the way everything works together, the rivers, the ocean, the seasons, the beauty, even the way an orange is packaged and doesn't become ripe until after the first freeze - cold and flu season, when people need it the most...God is good.
Yes, the whole earth speaks of a creator, so man is truly without excuse.
And mankind is the only force which destroys, pollutes and alters the way God made everything work together. Man is the only animal that creates garbage that never goes away, including nuclear waste, once again proving that God is good and man is not.
So, to not have faith is akin to the saying you can't see the forest for the trees.
That is why God demands faith, because He is really quite obvious throughout the entire universe.
It actually takes quite a depth of stubborness and self-will to NOT believe.
Oh, and P.S.
Just look at a seed, a tiny miracle that feeds the world, one which man has yet to create.... Such a tiny little thing and yet...Oh, he destroys it, he alters it (terminator seeds) he messes with it and screws it up, but he does not create it.
My favorite joke:
So scienrists come to God and say "Okay God, we've finally done it; we've created life."
God says "Cool, show me."
So one of the scientists takes a shovel and shoves it into some dirt.
God says, "Get your own dirt."

 

[Davidz777]

I think all we Christians are aware that many of us have had strange things happen related to our faith that we cannot prove to others, go beyond probable coincidence, and I am certainly one that could tell a few stories though none that has ever convinced even this person with certainty. Obviously there are hundreds of millions of Christian believers that feel God is regularly communicating in some ways, especially those that embrace a personal relationship with Him. Most of us let it be at that, content to believe from faith alone without a need to see or feel something physical like a gleaming obelisk with a sign IAMIAM .

The fact that some individuals are convinced God is sometimes communicating to them in sensual physical ways and use such personal accounts to try and convince others, is not going to convince secular atheist others because they will state such is internal delusion or purposeful manipulation for the sake of convincing others.

We've all seen some Christian tv shows where a person supposedly with some medical condition like being cripple is put up on stage in front of a camera and after some religious dialogue suddenly is up and about dancing as though healed by a miracle. What follows is fundraising as many phones start ringing the tv camera then pans over to. No one should be surprised as to how atheists will react and use such to laugh at anything that cannot be reliably proven to others.

If they state something like I see him with my eyes in broad daylight or I hear his voice clearly with my ears, secularists may reply with something like "ok prove it while I'm standing here", and then laugh when nothing ever happens.

I immediately rated Halbhh's post #9, Winner, as it pointed to faith, something that was surprisingly missing through many pages of the 2012 similar thread. Anguspure at post #31, Winner, likewise added the fine tuning and biological arguments. coffee4u at post #62, Winner, reiterated faith while other posts also mention such. And that is the purpose of the thread to move beyond what cannot be physically proven in order to provide reasons why God has wisely chosen to not be obvious. So as the thread has run its course, in the future when another atheist blurts out something like "Why doesn't God just appear in the clouds of the sky with an immense booming voice so all we non-believers know with certainty he is real.", we Christians have understandable reasons to reply with as to why God does not and why we believe due to faith alone without trying to argue in ways guaranteed to not change agnostic and atheist minds.

 

[Anguspure]

if he exists in a form no one can see because no one has the capacity to comprehend what he is than that form would transcend all others and work at a higher level. Since we are unable to comprehend it that means we cannot describe it except that it is higher, it also means we can't prove it. We probably would say things like he's in a different dimension or realm.

It's like the flatland story (youtube it if you don't know it). a 2D shape was unable to comprehend a 3D shape when a sphere entered his realm all he saw was a circle that got bigger and smaller and when it spoke he heard it but it was disembodied to him unless the sphere entered his plane so he could see the shape but still only in 2D. Of course, the idea is that although we exist and understand our dimension that perhaps there are dimensions above us that we are unable to comprehend, and when we do see it all we see and explain is based on our own limits so never able to truly see or truly explain.

You are right that we can't prove it. Proof is something that belongs to mathematics and "proof" is not something that can be given in other fields of thought or experience. What we have instead is evidence, and all of the evidence that we have points very strongly to a creative intelligence. Since there is no suitable candidate for this creative intelligence within the Universe, and it is clear that the Universe itself is created, then it follows that this Intelligence must transcend the Universe itself.
This God is the one identified by Abraham and Moses (and a few others besides) and is the one that when Moses enquired of His name called Himself I AM to which we say YHWH.

 

[PaulCyp1]

He is visually hidden because He is invisible because He has no physical body. However, it is rather foolish to say He is unprovable, since hundreds of millions of intelligent people know Him personally and live in daily relationship and communication with Him. There is no greater proof of a person's existence than to know them personally.

 

[SkyWriting]

He might have plunked down say at Jeruselum, some immense incredible gleaming structure like an obelisk made of materials far in advance of even what we have today that withstands disintegration over time.

Something like the entire Cosmos for example?

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely,
his eternal power and divine nature,
have been clearly perceived, ever
since the creation of the world,
in the things that have been made.
So men are without excuse.

 

[Woke]

It's because of the false dichotomy too many have between 'science' and the Creator (Who is of course creator of nature, thus...the sciences, by definition).

Many assume that if you know and accept mainstream science you must not believe, which is a tragic error on their part, based on faulty assumptions.

All of the mainstream science fits perfectly fine with the Bible, from having read through it fully twice (and soon it will be 3 times), and also from having a hard sciences background (physics), and reading broadly in the sciences. If anything, the more science one learns, the easier it would become to believe in God. It's only a shallow understanding in the sciences, or accepting the false idea that evolution somehow contradicts the scripture (which isn't true), that leads some to wrongly conclude science contradicts scripture.

Many (not a majority, but more than just a few) don't realize the that God creating all of nature means He created the basis of nature, the laws by which nature operates. Physics, thus all the sciences also, is His design of nature.

The proclamation that science proves God nonexistent is an excuse. Because that would literally be impossible. Because even if there was no God it would be impossible for science or anyone to prove that. That's why we know those that claim, "I believe in science, I don't believe in God, " are really lying.

On a Christian radio station I heard a teacher on a show that knew a man whose profession it was to give lie detector tests. He said the man performed a couple thousand tests. There was one question he asked on every test. The question was, "Do you believe in God? "
He said every time a person answered that question, "no, " his machine registered they were lying.

 

[Davidz777]

The proclamation that science proves God nonexistent is an excuse. Because that would literally be impossible. Because even if there was no God it would be impossible for science or anyone to prove that. That's why we know those that claim, "I believe in science, I don't believe in God, " are really lying...

You seem to have a tendency for twisting what others write, injecting meaning beyond what was stated. Your quoted post by Halbhh says nothing of what you wrote. If stating something original, one ought not quote others as though one is being critical of what they wrote.

 

[gideon123]

Davidz777

Here at the end of your thread i will give you the answer.

Exodus 33.

The Bible contains the answers for what we are seeking. Bur we must seek the Word of God every day.

Blessings!

 

[Yahkov]

The above post highlights it pretty well. I'd also like to add what Jesus said...

"Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" - John 14:9

and this...

"For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." - Romans 1:20

If anyone says God is unprovable, the Bible is in complete disagreement.

"He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"" - Luke 16:31

"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." - Romans 10:17

If God placed a gleaming structure that did not disintegrate with time, you think people would worship the Creator of the gleaming structure or the creation? Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of the world and rising on the third day is infinitely more incredible than some gleaming structure that doesn't disintegrate.

Maybe we ought to spend more time showing others there is a God by the way we live, and not by tackling such a task at an intellectual level. Let God's Word and the Holy Spirit transform your life and let God do the talking.

Reality is, people go around saying God is unprovable because someone else, not God, said so.

 

[Davidz777]

If God placed a gleaming structure that did not disintegrate with time, you think people would worship the Creator of the gleaming structure or the creation? Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of the world and rising on the third day is infinitely more incredible than some gleaming structure that doesn't disintegrate.

The "gleaming structure" you took from my "gleaming obelisk" could just as well have been written as God flying across the sky every generation with his Heavenly angels for all to see for the purpose of my meaning that unless people of each ancient generation actually experienced physical proof of God they were quick to become skeptical. In this modern era such does not apply because once a certain supernatural event beyond our science occurs, it will forever be recorded going forward. The advantage of the gleaming obelisk is once placed, God would not need to keep performing regularly for we mortals through millennia. If he thought some might begin worshiping the structure itself, he could have a booming voice recording state not to, a command by God. Simple solution but of course as was the purpose of this thread God apparently does not want us to know with certainty and that is why his resurrection is perfect because it is far from certain requiring considerable faith.