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Featured Why is God hidden, invisible, unprovable?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Davidz777, Oct 22, 2019.

  1. Davidz777

    Davidz777 Newbie

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    I skimmed through another closed thread that was supposed to address why God chooses to be invisible but it was mostly off topic with predictable subjects. I'm starting this new thread on the subject as I'll be addressing it differently.

    My science oriented perspective does not subscribe to Bible inerrancy and infallibility, multi-universes, god is on another plain of existence, time travel, precognition, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, omnibenevolence, miracles like magic. Note, will resist posts going off topic.

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    That no one in modern times has been able to provide certain physical proof of god or even spiritual existences looking back through human history, is the strongest scientific evidence for atheistic resistance to belief in any god. We cannot obviously sense God. The Bible itself states God is invisible and that no one (on Earth) has seen his true essence except the Son. God does not with certainty sensually communicate with us although many believers will claim they can tell in some vague way that God is there guiding their thoughts. But if he exists, God could and may at least on extraordinary occasions do so under conditions that he has carefully evaluated as to be un-provable. Such might be described as un-manifested. It may also be that God as spirit is not visible by our organic visual system. The following Bible verses are examples showing God’s attitude in being secretive, hidden, invisible, un-manifested and how that was even understood at Jesus’s time. As to why, I'll speculate about that later:

    Matthew 11:25-27 (NIV)
    At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.“
    Colossians 1:15 (NASB)
    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
    Mathew 12:38>39 (NASB)
    Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
    But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;
    Jhn 5:37 (NASB)
    “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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  2. Semper-Fi

    Semper-Fi Active Member

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    Archaeology Proves Bible History Accurate
     
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  3. solid_core

    solid_core Member

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    When we realize that the whole physical creation (the Universe) is in God, how exactly should be God visible inside it?

    The universe exists in Him, not He in the Universe.
     
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  4. Semper-Fi

    Semper-Fi Active Member

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    the spirit of deep sleep
    the spirit of slumber

    Isaiah 29:9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

    The next verse shows what was done

    Isaiah 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

    Paul confirms the same here in Romans

    Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

    As Jesus said

    Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

    "This people's heart"

    Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    -Then to His diciples (the remnant according to the election of grace) Jesus says, Mat 13:16
    But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

    -Whereas the rest are being shown as blinded...Paul himself repeats the same words of Isaiah to the Jews in Acts 28:26-27 And Paul finishes by saying to them

    Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. "They will hear it".
     
  5. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    IMHO that isn't proof of anything. There are all sorts of beliefs we have and that are favorites of materialists which aren't any more evident than that there is some sort of higher power.

    Well, there you are. God took on our nature so that we would know his reality and not be stuck with a purely theoretical god like some religions follow.

    Or it could be that we need to consider that if we are dealing with a being who is far above our abilities to comprehend properly or fully, it is entirely possible that there is a reason for his not being as omnipresent as dirt and as comprehensible as the alphabet.
     
  6. Davidz777

    Davidz777 Newbie

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    Before modern times God did not have to worry if he or his angel’s appearances or miracles were seen by one or even a few people because credibility even with the most important people like say kings or religious leaders was certain to be very low by just a following generation. In other words, if a king said God had appeared to him and then later he told those royalty and servants around him, those he directly told the story to might believe he really did see God but beyond his days, decades into following generations people would increasingly take the story with a grain of salt and suspicion, especially given the considerable superstitious nature of pre-modern eras. In the Old Testament that is exactly what happened in just a few short generations after the era of Moses, Joshua, and Samuel even among people closest to those events. People have good reason to be suspicious of supernatural claims as they live their own lives without ever experiencing such while throughout human history there have been endless such claims that are never verifiable and the source of regular derision.

    The actions by authorities during Jesus’s public years confirms the majority of them were also highly suspicious of supernatural claims much like today. In fact, it is likely numbers in the Jewish Levite religious tribe really did not believe there was a god and instead just played the game superficially benefiting from their special societal position. And that also shows in how corrupt immoral ruling classes that were close to them obviously shared such non-believing views as they freely sinned expecting no after life punishment.

    (more coming)
     
  7. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I don't believe there is any basis for that conclusion. The Jewish religion was of course spiritual, as most religious systems are. God, to them, was all the things you complained about in the foregoing posts, although their idea of the afterlife was not quite as ours is.
     
  8. Davidz777

    Davidz777 Newbie

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    Mathew 12:38>39 (NASB)
    Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
    But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;
     
  9. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Because God specifically wants us to achieve faith, in particular, as the primary goal -- we see this throughout all of the bible also. Before one gets any more confirmations. Faith is a strong form of trust.

    Why? Why is faith the goal?

    I think the answer is that without faith -- trust in God -- then eventually there will be war, in time. (we fight those we distrust) We read there was a war in fact, where some of the angels (1/3) rebelled.

    So, it makes a lot of sense God would require faith, right?

    Consider how hard it is to even relate to someone that distrusts you!

    Just reflect back, on how hard that was (is). I can remember meeting some people like that. They were impossible to make a good interaction with.

    So....since faith is the primary, or first-things-first goal, then....

    ....it must not then happen that easy obvious proof of God could be available, so that even a skeptic could see He exists as a certainty.

    All easy proof would need to be removed!

    It would obviate faith -- preempt faith.

    God doesn't want those that are hard hearted, arrogant and such, we read in scripture. They have ears but do not hear, Christ said. It's explicit. You can read the variety of passages on various aspects of this.

    So, they are kept from turning to Him by not being able to see or hear the more subtle signs of Him.

    Therefore, there can never be easy proof, until Christ returns.

    Even something like the exact age of the Earth -- if that was given -- it would contradict the rest of the Bible extensively. Because once we figured out the real age -- about 4.55 billion years, then that would merely easily prove God exists, and then even the most arrogant and hard hearted person could cynically turn and repent, in mere self-interest, without any trust in God at all.
     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    What if you eventually find/discover/ Yahuweh Reveals/ that "science perspective" is entirely wrong/ in error/ unable to ascertain anything true/ unspiritual ?
     
  11. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Good.
    God's Attitude, Jesus' Attitude, is the attitude those who follow Jesus obtain.
     
  12. Semper-Fi

    Semper-Fi Active Member

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    Heres one

    Sodom and Gomorrah Proved by scientests.
    Recent scientific evidence corroborates
    an ‘impossible’ biblical miracle.

    “The 3.7kaBP Middle Ghor Event: Catastrophic Termination of a Bronze Age Civilization.“

    While scientists can debate whether or not such extraordinary destruction was caused by a meteor-type event or other heavenly phenomena, what is not debatable is the effect.
    And that destruction—in location,time and description—directly matches the biblical event.
     
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  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    You seem to be asking me to explain the New Testament to someone who has already said its contents are not persuasive. Is that right?

    However, what is it that you think this passage which seems to mean so much to you is telling us?
     
  14. Shema_Ysrael

    Shema_Ysrael A firm believer of monotheistic God

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    God cannot be seen or we may say that he's invisible because he is not made of flesh and bones which is visible to the eyes. We know from the Bible that God in his divinity, is a spirit and therefore cannot be seen by the flesh. That's why in the old testament. When God was communicating with Moses and the children of Israel, He manifested in different forms like a pillar of cloud and fire, a smoke and thunder. Or we can also call it "theopany". The Bible also described the Almighty as the "God who hides". God doesn't reveal His glory to all. But rather manifest to chosen people as He will it in different ways. If one would notice, Jesus Christ did the same in the new testament. He had hidden himself on certain occasions and had even hidden some of the miraculous things he did.


    who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
    I Timothy 6:16 NKJV

    Truly You are God, who hide Yourself, O God of Israel, the Savior!
    Isaiah 45:15 NKJV
     
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  15. Davidz777

    Davidz777 Newbie

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    Why might God choose to be unrevealed, un-manifested, invisible, hidden? If God and his actions were revealed out in the open public, all people, I reiterate ALL sane people, would believe he existed just like today there is no doubt the world is a round planet. Consider how God could have if he had thought that letting humans know he was certain, could have done so. He might have plunked down say at Jeruselum, some immense incredible gleaming structure like an obelisk made of materials far in advance of even what we have today that withstands disintegration over time. No words on the structure, no voice from clouds, no lightning bolts zapping out from, no need to keep reappearing himself every generation or so, to be certain skeptics might believe. Even some primitives on some remote island once seeing an image of such would respond like civilized scientists. But obviously as previously noted, God if he exists apparently does not want we humans to know he exists with certainty. He wants there to be great skepticism and doubt.

    (more follows)
     
  16. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    FWIW, I think that wisdom suggests that we not simply settle on some particular explanation of the mysteries of life--whatever they are--and then hold onto it like a bulldog, never allowing that there are other things about our existence which we do not yet know or understand which could modify that guesswork. Put another way, what I am reading seems as doctrinaire as the self-confident claims made by a Fundamentalist Christian at the other end of the creedal spectrum.
     
  17. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    God invisible? Then who was Jesus, Jesus is God and was not invisible.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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  18. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    Bible tells God is Spirit and love.

    God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
    John 4:24

    He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
    1 John 4:8

    Bible also tells that God lives in disciples of Jesus:

    But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
    Romans 8:11

    Now, I think we all believe that gravity exists. But how is that, we can’t see gravity directly? So, is gravity hidden and unprovable? I believe we all would say no. Gravity comes visible by its influence. I believe the same is with God.

    He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
    1 John 3:7-10

    If person is born of God, he is righteous. And if person is righteous, he does righteous actions. Those actions I think are the evidence for God. I think God comes visible in people who are loyal to him and do God’s work. Because I think it can be seen in some, I don’t think God is unprovable.
     
  19. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Right! :)

    Of course, He said, to Thomas...about us, later in time.... We want to be among those 'blessed' right. Today, there is no other way, for about 98 or whatever % of us. (not many will get a vision before they believe, though indeed some do it seems from testimonies)
     
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  20. David Neos

    David Neos Catechumen

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    More modernism and rationalism.
     
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