Why Historians Date the Revelation to the Reign of Domitian

[precepts]

Ok, Im not sure you understand how a debate works.


If you make a claim, you have to back it up.


If you dont back it up, you forfeit the debate and admit concession by default.


So lets make sure EVERYONE is aware, you refuse to answer the question, then use the Bible to accuse me of being found wanting..

Hypocrites are easy to spot bro..

Let the record show, the game we play is to act stupid, make accusations, and dodge the facts.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

Let the record show, the game we play is to act stupid, make accusations, and dodge the facts.

Thats fine, you can keep thinking you are providing a rebuttal, but I am STILL waiting for you to break 70ad in the Bible down to me..

If you want to concede, and admit you cant, Ill understand.


Ironically, I can show you with ease, and you dont even realize it..

It is in the Bible..

 

[Interplanner]

re breaking down 70 AD. Try this:

Basic Integration of NT History
This is a concise coordinated statement about Luke-Acts, Jesus’ Prophecy and the ‘Great Revolt,’ (aka Jewish War) by a member with a research master’s degree and an author. The members here who spend most of their time trying to decipher modern events and pursue the ‘rapture’ do not grasp these points because they don’t know the basic historic elements of the church’s first generation:

Jesus’ prophecy (Mt. 24, Mk. 13, Lk. 19&21) is about the calamity of AD 66. It obviously weighs heavily on his heart, Lk. 23:29. The appeal of Christ and the apostles to their people was for them to become missionaries of the Gospel of justification by Christ’s righteousness, as Paul did. That was God’s messianic plan all along, but also was a sane solution to the mistake of confrontation with Rome.

By and large, Israel did not follow, and Judaizers harassed Christians in their endeavors, and agitated the arrangement with Rome, and supported at least 3 freedom-fighting ‘messiahs’ in the 60s. This is why Jesus’ prophecy (same passages) has such immediate and direct warnings about having to evacuate Jerusalem and Israel. Why would you have to worry about escaping for your life…on a Sabbath? Because of a police-state ‘purifying’ the land of Levitical law-breaking.

Finally, Christians expected a 2nd global and ultimate appearance of Christ on the heels of Daniel’s desolating disaster of AD 66, but God had other plans about that, to save even more people. This means passages in Thessalonian letters, so vividly written in the 40s about what was coming, no longer have specific application. They are still generally encouraging about the final victory of Christ, of course, as is Revelation, which was also written before the Jewish War. But much of the debate about specifics has missed has what happened historically.

The best recent non-scholarly treatment of this I’m aware of is J. Zens, “The time of great affliction” SEARCHING TOGETHER, Fall-Winter 2005, p47+.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[parousia70]

Ok, Im not sure you understand how a debate works.


If you make a claim, you have to back it up.


If you dont back it up, you forfeit the debate and admit concession by default.

You guys claim Nero stood in Gods temple and declared himself God.

You can't Back that claim up.
You forfeit the debate and admit concession by default

 

[Interplanner]

I didn't realize Nero-as-god was what ChristP thought was preterism. Nero was certainly flambouyant, but the leader of the "rebellion that desolates" (Dan 8-9) was prob who Paul was talking about. 3 leaders fought it out with each other in the middle stages of the Jewish Revolt; John of Gischala won. There was the apocalyptic belief at the time (found in Dead Sea scrolls etc.) that there would be a 'messiah' who would have God's blessing against the oppressor (Rome) and so there was an expectation that God would fight for Israel through that person.

As we know from Christ's own experience, this made a claim to be Messiah hazardous in those day. A person shouldn't do it because Judaism held it to be scandalous. But when Jesus described those times, he said many would, and would show up in the inner rooms of the temple or out in the desert; there are examples of both.

The important point being that whoever claims to be this figure would be of Israel and should have known better. An abomination that desolates could not be done by a foreigner which then caused Israel to be punished; that has no sense.

 

[precepts]

Thats fine, you can keep thinking you are providing a rebuttal, but I am STILL waiting for you to break 70ad in the Bible down to me..

If you want to concede, and admit you cant, Ill understand.


Ironically, I can show you with ease, and you dont even realize it..

It is in the Bible..

Your game, your rules.

 

[parousia70]

I didn't realize Nero-as-god was what ChristP thought was preterism.

I don't think he does. He is just erecting a straw man so he can tear it down and say "look what I can do!".

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

I don't think he does. He is just erecting a straw man so he can tear it down and say "look what I can do!".

Ok, so Nero wasnt actually anyone other than a Roman emperor then correct?

He isnt the man of sin? He isnt the Lawless one? He isnt the Beast? He isnt the false prophet?

Its ok, I know you wont answer the question..


So I can safely assume that Nero has no prophetic meaning whatsoever.

Got it.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

I didn't realize Nero-as-god was what ChristP thought was preterism. Nero was certainly flambouyant, but the leader of the "rebellion that desolates" (Dan 8-9) was prob who Paul was talking about. 3 leaders fought it out with each other in the middle stages of the Jewish Revolt; John of Gischala won. There was the apocalyptic belief at the time (found in Dead Sea scrolls etc.) that there would be a 'messiah' who would have God's blessing against the oppressor (Rome) and so there was an expectation that God would fight for Israel through that person.

As we know from Christ's own experience, this made a claim to be Messiah hazardous in those day. A person shouldn't do it because Judaism held it to be scandalous. But when Jesus described those times, he said many would, and would show up in the inner rooms of the temple or out in the desert; there are examples of both.

The important point being that whoever claims to be this figure would be of Israel and should have known better. An abomination that desolates could not be done by a foreigner which then caused Israel to be punished; that has no sense.

I understand Preterism very well. I can sum it up in one word.

satanic.

 

[Interplanner]

My teenagers call their homework satanic too. You'll get used to it. It is real, historic scholarship. You'll join the ranks of Bruce, Metzger, Nolland, Cullmann, Hengel, etc. You might look for the short Fortress press production of Hengel's "Was Jesus a Revolutionist?" because it was written to defeat arguments by Palestinians that Jesus was a revolutionist. It shows from the gospels that Jesus was actually trying to persuade his generation of Israel not to join the Jewish Revolt.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

You can't Back that claim up.
You forfeit the debate and admit concession by default

From one of you satanic fanboy websites. We can do that all night, I didnt realize how corrupt preterist interpretation really was.

You guys might repent before the Lord.

Man of Sin[FONT=&quot][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot] Tradition among primitive Christians identified [/FONT] [FONT=&quot] St. Paul[/FONT][FONT=&quot]’s “man of sin” with [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]St. John’s[/FONT][FONT=&quot] “antichrist” and Revelation’s “beast,” many holding that these were references to Nero. Victorinus and Augustine we already heard from, above. In his fourth homily on II Thessalonians, St. Chrysostom (A.D. 347 to 407) states, [/FONT]
"For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work." He speaks here of Nero... But he did not also wish to point him out plainly: and this not from cowardice, but instructing us not to bring upon ourselves unnecessary enmities, when there is nothing to call for it.”

Reference
Man of Sin: Nero Caesar


[FONT=&quot]http://www.preteristcentral.com/Man of Sin.html#_ftn10[/FONT]

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

My teenagers call their homework satanic too. You'll get used to it. It is real, historic scholarship. You'll join the ranks of Bruce, Metzger, Nolland, Cullmann, Hengel, etc. You might look for the short Fortress press production of Hengel's "Was Jesus a Revolutionist?" because it was written to defeat arguments by Palestinians that Jesus was a revolutionist. It shows from the gospels that Jesus was actually trying to persuade his generation of Israel not to join the Jewish Revolt.

Sorry, Christians dont need much apart from their Sword, the Word of God.

I know you dont know what that means, but you will one day.


Keep looking for prophecy and Jesus in the annals of a loosely collaborated body of historical events that have no objectivity regarding prophecy.

Ill stick with the Word of God..

 

[Biblewriter]

re breaking down 70 AD. Try this:

Basic Integration of NT History
This is a concise coordinated statement about Luke-Acts, Jesus’ Prophecy and the ‘Great Revolt,’ (aka Jewish War) by a member with a research master’s degree and an author. The members here who spend most of their time trying to decipher modern events and pursue the ‘rapture’ do not grasp these points because they don’t know the basic historic elements of the church’s first generation:

Jesus’ prophecy (Mt. 24, Mk. 13, Lk. 19&21) is about the calamity of AD 66. It obviously weighs heavily on his heart, Lk. 23:29. The appeal of Christ and the apostles to their people was for them to become missionaries of the Gospel of justification by Christ’s righteousness, as Paul did. That was God’s messianic plan all along, but also was a sane solution to the mistake of confrontation with Rome.

By and large, Israel did not follow, and Judaizers harassed Christians in their endeavors, and agitated the arrangement with Rome, and supported at least 3 freedom-fighting ‘messiahs’ in the 60s. This is why Jesus’ prophecy (same passages) has such immediate and direct warnings about having to evacuate Jerusalem and Israel. Why would you have to worry about escaping for your life…on a Sabbath? Because of a police-state ‘purifying’ the land of Levitical law-breaking.

Finally, Christians expected a 2nd global and ultimate appearance of Christ on the heels of Daniel’s desolating disaster of AD 66, but God had other plans about that, to save even more people. This means passages in Thessalonian letters, so vividly written in the 40s about what was coming, no longer have specific application. They are still generally encouraging about the final victory of Christ, of course, as is Revelation, which was also written before the Jewish War. But much of the debate about specifics has missed has what happened historically.

The best recent non-scholarly treatment of this I’m aware of is J. Zens, “The time of great affliction” SEARCHING TOGETHER, Fall-Winter 2005, p47+.

The "member with a research master’s degree and an author." Is also someone who is committed with a whole heart to denying everything the prophecies in the Bible say. This has caused him to wrest, not only the scriptures, but the historical accounts.

I do not deny his allegations about the history of this time period because I do not know about this history, but because I do know it. I devoted literally years to research into ancient histories, maps, documents, and monuments. I did not study about what the ancients said, I devoted years to studying their actual writings. And I assure everyone here that what this "member with a research master’s degree and an author" is saying is completely incorrect.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

The "member with a research master’s degree and an author." Is also someone who is committed with a whole heart to denying everything the prophecies in the Bible say. This has caused him to wrest, not only the scriptures, but the historical accounts.

I do not deny his allegations about the history of this time period, but because I do know it, and know for a certainty that the allegations he makes are simply and provably incorrect.

Well said, and played.

 

[precepts]

I didn't realize Nero-as-god was what ChristP thought was preterism. Nero was certainly flambouyant, but the leader of the "rebellion that desolates" (Dan 8-9) was prob who Paul was talking about. 3 leaders fought it out with each other in the middle stages of the Jewish Revolt; John of Gischala won. There was the apocalyptic belief at the time (found in Dead Sea scrolls etc.) that there would be a 'messiah' who would have God's blessing against the oppressor (Rome) and so there was an expectation that God would fight for Israel through that person.

As we know from Christ's own experience, this made a claim to be Messiah hazardous in those day. A person shouldn't do it because Judaism held it to be scandalous. But when Jesus described those times, he said many would, and would show up in the inner rooms of the temple or out in the desert; there are examples of both.

The important point being that whoever claims to be this figure would be of Israel and should have known better. An abomination that desolates could not be done by a foreigner which then caused Israel to be punished; that has no sense.

Here's some antichrist prophecies about the scriptural 8th Roman Emperor, Titus Flavius Vespasianus, the king/horn responsible for the temple destruction.

I post only for the innocent and the logical:

http://http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messianic_claimants13.html

http://http://carrington-arts.com/cliff/FlavSyn.htm

 

[parousia70]

From one of you satanic fanboy websites.

There! Good Job!
Why was that so hard? It was like pulling teeth to get you to use your google LOL!

Thank you CP! I had NO IDEA that certain preterists viewed Nero as the Man of Sin! I stand Corrected (I don't use those websites, I' pretty much stick to Biblegateway.com, so I'm admittedly not 100% up to speed on the trends of every stripe of preterist)

I of course disagree with those preterists who claim that, since they make the same error that most futurists do by conflating the Beast/antichrist and MoS as one person.... I also find it interesting that this Kurt fella quotes ECF FUTURISTS to support His view! So this preterist is quoting FUTURISTS who thought Nero was the Man of Sin... fascinating!

At any rate, You Futurists can't even agree on Pre-mid-post trib/wrath rapture/no rapure etc, so it's clear that eschatological disagreement amongst ourselves is hardly an exclusively preterist problem.

Anyway, I'm man enough to admit I was wrong.
Again I stand Corrected. Thank you for FINALLY providing the facts when asked.

 

[Interplanner]

ChristP:
Hope you read the livius.org site:

Messianic claimants (04) Judas the Galilean

That will help as you try to integrate Acts with its times, and Luke's gospel, too. Jesus validates some of the feelings Josephus had about those groups. The site is a miltary history magazine site.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

ChristP:
Hope you read the livius.org site:

Messianic claimants (04) Judas the Galilean

That will help as you try to integrate Acts with its times, and Luke's gospel, too. Jesus validates some of the feelings Josephus had about those groups. The site is a miltary history magazine site.

I know, you hope I will read anything, but the bible..

Youre a heretic.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

There! Good Job!
Why was that so hard? It was like pulling teeth to get you to use your google LOL!

Thank you CP! I had NO IDEA that certain preterists viewed Nero as the Man of Sin! I stand Corrected (I don't use those websites, I' pretty much stick to Biblegateway.com, so I'm admittedly not 100% up to speed on the trends of every stripe of preterist)

I of course disagree with those preterists who claim that, since they make the same error that most futurists do by conflating the Beast/antichrist and MoS as one person.... I also find it interesting that this Kurt fella quotes ECF FUTURISTS to support His view! So this preterist is quoting FUTURISTS who thought Nero was the Man of Sin... fascinating!

At any rate, You Futurists can't even agree on Pre-mid-post trib/wrath rapture/no rapure etc, so it's clear that eschatological disagreement amongst ourselves is hardly an exclusively preterist problem.

Anyway, I'm man enough to admit I was wrong.
Again I stand Corrected. Thank you for FINALLY providing the facts when asked.

If full preterism is the death of the Bible, then partial preterism is the disease that leads to it.


There is no "acceptable" levil of evil..


Regarding the rapture, the reason it is disputed is because we were never meant to know when it is..

We can come up with our understanding of the time frame, but not the exact day or hour.

Ultimately, futurists dont have to worry about the rapture, Its a promise that was made, it will come, in time..

I personally place the rapture after the mid point of Daniels 70th week, but it could just as easily be pretrib, it has no bearing on my faith..

Its a higher honor to die a martyrs death anyways..

 

[shturt678s]

There! Good Job!
Why was that so hard? It was like pulling teeth to get you to use your google LOL!

Thank you CP! I had NO IDEA that certain preterists viewed Nero as the Man of Sin! I stand Corrected (I don't use those websites, I' pretty much stick to Biblegateway.com, so I'm admittedly not 100% up to speed on the trends of every stripe of preterist)

I of course disagree with those preterists who claim that, since they make the same error that most futurists do by conflating the Beast/antichrist and MoS as one person.... I also find it interesting that this Kurt fella quotes ECF FUTURISTS to support His view! So this preterist is quoting FUTURISTS who thought Nero was the Man of Sin... fascinating!

At any rate, You Futurists can't even agree on Pre-mid-post trib/wrath rapture/no rapure etc, so it's clear that eschatological disagreement amongst ourselves is hardly an exclusively preterist problem.

Anyway, I'm man enough to admit I was wrong.
Again I stand Corrected. Thank you for FINALLY providing the facts when asked.

I seriously thought I was the only one refutable on this forum, ie, good thing I kept my day job.

Humble pie Jack, ie, good job!

btw I'm not one of those even partial Preterist, ie, believe in the Antichrist, beasts, and etc., as in Nowism, ie, no futurism.