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Featured Why God's Purpose for the Tribulation excludes the Church

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    That's right.

    For the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is already fulfilled, even though the prior, Millennial prophecy of Jeremiah 31:1-14,16-25 (Jeremiah 31:15 was fulfilled in the 1st century AD: Matthew 2:17-18) and the other Millennial prophecies haven't yet been fulfilled. For the making of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31,33) was fulfilled at Jesus Christ's crucifixion (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17), just as the New Covenant being made with the houses of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:31,33) has been fulfilled (Acts 2:5,36-41, Romans 11:1,17,24). And the New Covenant being not according to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Jeremiah 31:32) has been fulfilled (Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17). And the New Covenant law of Jesus being written on the hearts of Jewish and Gentile Christians (Jeremiah 31:33) has been fulfilled (Romans 6:17, Ephesians 6:6, Galatians 6:2). And "they shall teach no more every man his neighbour" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:27). And "they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:13). And "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:12).
  2. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Regarding "a future covenant with the modern State of Israel", do you mean a future covenant made by the Antichrist with Israel?

    If so, note he could make a covenant with a false Messiah in Israel.

    For in Daniel 9:26 the original Hebrew word (H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). But a future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are militarily defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So this future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

    This treaty will allow this false "Messiah" and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a) so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so they can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a) the future Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he's (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

    In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the future Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

    At the very end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the Second Coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the Church during the future Millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the Church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Note that the virgins in that parable can refer only to those who are already Christians, so that it's a warning like Romans 11:22, whereas Romans 11:23 refers to non-Christian Jews getting saved.

    Also, in Romans 11:25-29 the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like the apostle Paul (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish Christians (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile Christians (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become Christians they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It's the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect, genetic Jews who aren't yet Christians (Romans 11:28), but who will become Christians eventually (Romans 11:26).

    When the apostle Paul says: "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of Gentile individuals have become Christians, which won't happen until near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30); just as Luke 21:24 shows "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the future Tribulation.

    Immediately after the future Tribulation, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus Christ Himself from heaven (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all the still-living, unsaved, elect Jews will be ashamed and weep and become Christians when they see Jesus and realize He truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the Church at that time, just as when Jews become Christians now they become part of the Church. For there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    And the Jews who will become Christians at Jesus' Second Coming will all become part of the Church by receiving some measure of God's Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as Christian Jews today become part of the Church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles become part of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    Also, if the Jews who will become Christians at Jesus' Second Coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus Christ's Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18).

    Also, the fullness of the Gentiles coming in during the future Tribulation doesn't mean no Gentiles will be added to the Church during the subsequent Millennium, because they will be (Isaiah 66:19-20). For "fullness" doesn't have to mean "no more after that". For example, even after a cup has been filled with wine, more wine can be added to it so the "cup runneth over" (Psalms 23:5b). Also, it doesn't matter the new Christians during the Millennium will be added to the Church/bride (of Ephesians 4:4-6, Ephesians 5:30-32) after the marriage of the Church to Jesus Christ occurred at His Second Coming (Revelation 19:7). For as many husbands have discovered, a bride can increase in size sometime after her wedding.
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    They absolutely can not be Christians.

    Mat 25:12  But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.' 

    Joh_10:27  My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

    As for Daniel 9:27, the notes of the 1599 Geneva Bible found below, reveal that it is a reference to the New Covenant Messiah.
    The covenant with many in Daniel 9:27 is the same covenant with many in Matthew 26:28.
    There is no antichrist or "gap" in Daniel chapter 9.

    Daniel 9:27

    And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    (a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

    (b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

    (c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.


  5. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Note that the virgins in the 10 virgins parable can still be Christians.

    For Matthew 25:12 can be the same idea as Matthew 7:23, which in its context (Matthew 7:21-23) shows that both faith and obedience to God are required for Christians to enter ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24). And there's no assurance Christians will choose to obey (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46).

    Matthew 7:23a can be hyperbole, like Matthew 23:24b is hyperbole. For Matthew 7:22 can refer to Christians, believers in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31), who had repented from their sins (1 John 3:6) and performed many wonderful works for Jesus to the end (John 15:4-5). But at some point subsequent to their initial repentance they'd fallen back into some unrepentant sin (Matthew 7:23b; 2 Peter 2:20-22), so they had to be rejected by Jesus in the end despite their continued faith and good works (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Hebrews 10:26-29).

    Regarding the ability to cast out demons (Matthew 7:22), that's one of the signs people are Christians, believers in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Mark 16:17). People must be careful not to fall into the unforgivable presumption of Mark 3:22-30.
  6. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    This means those who are Jesus Christ's sheep (the elect) will hear His voice in His Word (the Bible) and eventually believe in Him at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b), while those who aren't His sheep (the nonelect) can't ever hear (accept) His Word and believe in Him (John 8:42-47). The elect come to Jesus and get saved only because they'd previously been given to Jesus by God the Father (John 6:37). And they come to Jesus only by God the Father drawing them to Jesus (John 6:44). Faith is a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2). The elect believe and are initially saved by God's choice, not their choice (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 15:16). But the ultimate salvation of the elect will depend on their choices subsequent to their initial salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30), for salvation doesn't take away free will.
  7. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Note that even in preterism there was a gap of decades between the 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a and the 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b. For 1st century AD Jerusalem wasn't destroyed until 70 AD, decades after the Crucifixion. Also, there will be a gap of 7 years between the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a and the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b. For the present Jerusalem won't be destroyed until right before and at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21), about 7 years after the future Antichrist "cuts" a 7-year treaty (Daniel 9:26a,27a) with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a) who will be ruling Jerusalem at the start (and then during the first half) of the possibly 7-year, future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.


    Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the Church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these five views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the Church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through the Tribulation.

    Preterism says the Tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says it happened over a long period in history, such as during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after. Pre-tribulation rapturism says Jesus Christ will return and rapture the Church into the 3rd heaven before the Tribulation. Symbolicism says the Tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which Christians have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some Christians have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says the Tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

    But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these five views have each tried to build up between the Church and the Tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the Church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the Tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These five views may have left some Christians unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these five views could even contribute to some Christians ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the Tribulation, when they will become "offended" that God is letting them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

    Even though the Church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future Tribulation, the Church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many Christians will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    Much, but not all of Matthew 24 is about the events of 70AD, as revealed by a comparison to the clear timeline in Luke's Gospel.

    Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

    Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

    Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)

    Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 

    Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

    (Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )

    Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

    (Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

    ( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

    Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 

    Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

    (Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )

    Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

    (Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 

    Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

    Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

    (Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )

    Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

    (Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )

    Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

    (Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)

    Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 

    Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 

    Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 

    Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 

    Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

    (Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )

    Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 

    Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

    (Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 

    Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

    Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

    (Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 

    Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

    (Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 

    Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

    Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 

    (Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )

    Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
    (Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)

    The Coming of the Son of Man

    Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

    (Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 

    Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

    Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

    (Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 

    Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

    (Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)
    From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

    "6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

    7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "

    Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
    Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.

    John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.

    The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them. Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Both preterism and historicism agree that all or the majority of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the 70 AD era, and constitutes what Christ referred to as "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21). Because He declared that it would be unparalleled prior to when it occurred, and would be unparalleled thereafter (Matthew 24:21), it can also correctly be referred to as "the great tribulation".

    The accounts of Josephus furnish unassailable historical evidence to corroborate the Scriptural predictions and descriptions.

    Unparalleled Tribulation

    Josephus, the Jewish historian, was an eye-witness to the unparalleled tribulation that ended
    in the fall and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. His detailed and scholarly account, Wars of
    the Jews, was published about 75 A.D., while the events of which he wrote were still fresh in
    the memory of thousands. His history provides a marvellous confirmation of the prophecy
    Jesus gave, even to fine details. Since he was not a Christian, no one can accuse him of
    slanting his material to match the prophecy. The references we will give in the account that
    follows are from Josephus.

    The trouble in Jerusalem began over differences between the Jews and the Romans. There
    were also differences between Jews--some favoured a revolt against Roman rule, others
    hoped for a peaceful agreement. Those who favoured revolt became very violent and began
    to kill those who disagreed with them. Troops were sent in to control the mob. War was on!
    Not only at Jerusalem, but throughout the land there was unrest.
    “Every city was divided into two armies,” Josephus says, “and the preservation of the one
    part was in the destruction of the other; so the daytime was spent in shedding blood, and the
    night in fear--which was of the two the more terrible… It was then common to see cities filled
    with dead bodies, still lying unburied; those of old men mixed with infants, all dead and
    scattered about together: women also lay amongst them, without any covering for their
    nakedness: You might then see the whole province full of inexpressible calamities while the
    dread of still more barbarous practices which were threatened, was everywhere greater than
    what had been already perpetrated.”

    The Jews in Alexandria that revolted against the Romans “were destroyed unmercifully; and
    this, their destruction, was complete ... houses were first plundered of what was in them, and
    then set on fire by the Romans; wherein no mercy was shown to the infants, and no regard
    had to the aged; but they went on in the slaughter of persons of every age, till all the place
    was overflowed with blood, and fifty thousands of them lay dead upon heaps.”
    In one hour, over 20,000 were killed in Caesarea and the battle continued until “all Caesarea
    was emptied of its Jewish inhabitants.... Galilee was all over filled with fire and blood, nor was
    it exempted from any kind of misery or calamity." Such horror was in the land that one
    prominent man, in order to save his family from a worse fate, took a sword and killed first his
    aged father and mother, his wife and children--all submitting to it willingly and then took his
    own life.

    In Jerusalem, those of the revolting party were known as Zealots. They “fell upon the people
    [who disagreed with them] as upon a flock of profane animals, and cut their throats.” In this
    way, 12,000 of the more eminent inhabitants perished. “The terror that was upon all the
    people was so great, that no one had courage enough either to weep openly for the dead
    man that was related to him, or bury him...those that mourned for others soon underwent the
    same death with those whom they mourned for.”

    Slaughter continued until “the outer temple was all of it overflowed with blood, and that day
    they saw 8,500 dead bodies there.” Included in this number were “those that a little before
    had worn the sacred garments and presided over the public worship, which were cast out
    naked to be the food of dogs and wild beasts.” Even those who came with sacrifices were
    slain, “and sprinkled that altar ... with their own blood; till the dead bodies of strangers were
    mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of
    priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts

    “The noise also of those that were fighting was incessant, both by day and by night; but the
    lamentations of those that mourned exceeded the other...their calamities came perpetually,
    one upon another.... But for the seditious themselves, they fought against each other, while
    they trod upon the dead bodies as they lay heaped one upon another, and taking up a mad
    rage from those dead bodies that were under the feet, became the fiercer thereupon ... and
    when they had resolved upon anything, they executed it without mercy, and omitted no
    method of torment or of barbarity.”

    Josephus wrote: “I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly:--that neither did any other city suffer such miseries, or did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.” The calamities which befell the Jews were “the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of
    those that ever were heard of; both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or
    nations against nations...it appears to me that the misfortunes of all men, from the beginning
    of the world, if they be compared to these of the Jews, are not so considerable as they were.”

    In a footnote, the Christian translator of Josephus' works adds this comment: “That these
    calamities of the Jews, who were our Saviour’s murderers, were to be the greatest that had
    ever been since the beginning of the world, our Saviour had directly foretold (Matthew 24:21;
    Mark 13:19; Luke 21:23,24) and that they proved to be such accordingly, Josephus is here a
    most authentic witness.”

    “There have been, of course, other periods of tribulation or suffering in which greater
    numbers of people were involved, and which continued for longer periods of time,” writes
    Boettner. “But considering the physical, moral, and religious aspects, suffering never
    reached a greater degree of awfulness and intensity than in the siege of Jerusalem. Nor
    have so many people ever perished in the fall of any other city. We think of the atomic bomb
    that was dropped on Hiroshima as causing the greatest mass horror of anything in modem
    time. Yet only about one-tenth as many people were killed in Hiroshima as in the fall of
    Jerusalem. Add to the slaughter of such a great number the bestiality of Jews to Jews and of
    Roman to Jews and the anguish of a people who knew they were forsaken of God, and we
    see the justification for Christ's words, ‘For then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not
    been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be!’”

    When Jesus spoke of tribulation ”such as was not since the beginning of the world ... nor ever
    shall be,” He was using a proverbial form of expression. Similar expressions are found in
    various ways in the scriptures: “...before them there were no such locusts as they, neither
    after them shall be such” (Exodus 10: 14). “I will give thee [Solomon] riches, and wealth, and
    honour, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there
    any after thee have the like” (2 Chronicles 1: 12). “...there was none like thee before thee,
    neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee" (1 Kings 3:12). “I will do in thee that which I
    have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like” (Ezekiel 5:8,9). "...a great
    people ... there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the
    years of many generations” (Joel 2:2). “A time of trouble, such as never was since there was
    a nation even to that same time” (Daniel 12: 1).

    Some might argue there have been greater times of tribulation since 70 A.D. They could also
    argue that there have been kings who have had more wealth and honour than Solomon. But
    seeing how this expression was used in the scriptures, we should not attempt to press it
    beyond its intended meaning. We believe the historical fulfilment fully meets the
    requirements of the prophecy about great tribulation and wrath upon that land and people.

    Source: Great Prophecies of the Bible by Ralph Woodrow
  10. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    I feel like I learn something new every time I read one of your posts! Thanks and God bless!
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Thanks, and the fullest measure of God's blessings to you as well, claninja; and all praise and honor to our Savior, the Leader of His one and only people, His Church.
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    I must also add that your posts in "Did Christ fulfill all that was written about him in the law, prophets, and Psalms?" are a real inspiration.
  13. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter


    The coming tribulation will be worldwide:

    It is not past history as you would try making us believe!

    Who will survive the Tribulation?The Tribulation is referred to by Christians as the last 7 years of history before Jesus returns to rule earth. During this time period the Antichrist will come to power, and there will be many natural (and unnatural) disasters, wars, famines, etc. I believe this time is coming very quickly - we can already see some previews in the natural disasters the world has experienced the last few years. But many people do not seem to be worried. Or they expect that they will be one of the lucky few who survive - just like in the movies. But is this a realistic expectation? What are the actual chances of surviving the Tribulation? Here I will attempt to guess at that number, and see what it means for you personally.Number of Deaths per JudgementMost of the disasters which happen during the Tribulation are listed in the book of Revelation. I have already gone into more detail on each disaster in my article here, so for reference you may wish to read that article first. Below I will list each judgement and list how many the Bible says die from it. Then we'll see what percent of the earth's population is left over. I will assume a world population of 7 billion people at the starting point.Seal JudgementsThe Antichrist appears (Revelation 6:1-2): 0 deaths
    1. The beast out of the sea, the Antichrist is revealed
    2. Worldwide war. (Revelation 6:3-4): unknown
    3. Economic collapse. (Revelation 6:5-6): unknown
    4. Death (famine, disease, crime, animal attacks). (Revelation 6:7-8): 1/4 of the world's population = 1.75 billion deaths
    5. Martyrs cry out. (usually interpreted as Antichrist killing Christians) (Revelation 6:9-11): unknown
    6. Earthquake which moves mountains and islands, multiple meteor strikes. (Revelation 6:12-14): unknown
    7. Silence in heaven. (Revelation 8:1-5): 0 deaths
    8. Trumpet Judgements
      1. 1/3 of earth, trees, and plants burned. (Revelation 8:7): unknown
      2. Asteroid impact in ocean - kills 1/3 of sea life and poisons 1/3 of ocean. (Revelation 8:8): unknown
      3. Asteroid impact which poisons 1/3 of fresh water. (Revelation 8:10-11): "Many people died because the water was so bitter" (unknown)
      4. Reduction of sun, moon, and starlight by 1/3. (Revelation 8:12): 0 deaths
      5. Release of supernatural "locusts" (probably demons) which torment people for 5 months. (Revelation 9:1-11): 0 deaths
      6. Deaths of people caused by 200 million war horses and fire, smoke, and sulfur: possibly nuclear war. (Revelation 9:13-19): 1/3 of remaining world's population = 1.75 billion deaths
      7. Earthquake, hail, lightning, thunder. (Revelation 11:19): unknown
      8. Bowl Judgements
        1. Painful sores for people with Mark of the Beast. (Revelation 16:1-2): 0 deaths
        2. All sea life dies, all oceans become like blood. (Revelation 16:3): unknown
        3. All rivers and streams become like blood. (Revelation 16:4): unknown
        4. Sun intensifies and scorches people. (Revelation 16:8): 0 deaths
        5. Darkness on Antichrist's kingdom, painful sores on people. (Revelation 16:10): 0 deaths
        6. River Euphrates dries up, battle of Armageddon. (Revelation 16:12-16): unknown
        7. Worst earthquake of all history, 100 pound hailstones. (Revelation 16:17-21): unknown
        8. Out of all these judgements, the Bible only mentions 1/4 of the world's population dying in Seal #4, and 1/3 of the remaining world population dies in Trumpet #6. Put together, these two judgements alone kill 3.5 billion people (50% of today's world population). This is equivalent to the entire countries of China, India, and the United States
    [1], plus still 1 billion other people. Already, the chances of surviving these two judgements is less than 50%.

    Estimates for Various DisastersThis 3.5 billion calculated above does not count the many other deaths which are not given numerical values. I will place some estimates here for the judgements where the number of deaths are not listed.Various WarsThe wars in Seal #2 may possibly include the Gog-Magog warwhich says it will take Israel 7 months to bury all of the dead foreign soldiers (Ezekiel 29:12). The Battle of Armageddon will be the largest in history and will involve European as well as Asian forces. I would guess probably at least a few million solders, and they basically all get wiped out when Jesus returns with his saints and angels (Revelation 19:21). So if you manage to avoid being drafted during these wars, maybe you have a better chance at surviving these battles.Starvation Many of the judgments will make it hard to find food and water. The destruction of sea life in Trumpet #2 and Bowl #2, freshwater life in Trumpet #3 and Bowl #3 will make it impossible to eat seafood, and the turning of sea and lake water to blood will probably make it hard or impossible to irrigate crops. I suspect they may invent a form of distillation which will make some water drinkable since people cannot survive more than 3 days without water, and life goes on for at least a few years under these conditions. However, it will probably be expensive and the poorest people will probably die from starvation or thirst. In Trumpet #3 it says many people die from the "bitter" water. In my article here, I suspect some water may be contaminated with sulphuric acid from a meteor strike.

    The sun is also darkened by 1/3 in Trumpet #4 - this would again make it more difficult to grow crops. The economic collapse in Seal #3 would probably lead to at least some deaths from people who cannot afford to buy food.Currently in our world where things are going relatively well, 36 million people die each year of starvation [2]. In the Tribulation, this number will probably double or triple. If we assume say 70 million people per year die from lack of food in the Tribulation, that would total another 490 million deaths over 7 years. Our total is now up to around 4 billion deaths.Christian MartyrsThere are still all the Christian Martyrs to be accounted for. Beginning in Seal #5 the Antichrist will probably start to kill off the Christians who resist him. The beast (the Antichrist) "was allowed to fight against God's people and defeat them." (Revelation 13:7). Also "Everyone who refused to worship the idol of the beast was put to death."(Revelation 13:15). We know these people who refused to worship the Beast were Christians because "I also saw the souls of the people who had their heads cut off because they had told about Jesus and preached God's message. They were the same one who had not worshiped the beast or the idol, and they had refused to let its mark be put on their hands or foreheads."(Revelation 20:4). John sees a vision of a "large crowd with more people than could be counted, from every race, tribe, nation, and language" (Revelation 7:9) in heaven who had "gone through the great suffering and washed their robes in the blood of the lamb"(Revelation 7:14).Currently there are 2 billion people on earth who identify as Christian or Catholic [3]. A portion of those will be Raptured before the Tribulation.

    Unfortunately, it will probably not even be 50%. According to Barna, only 9% of American "Christians" actually have a Biblical worldview [4]. This group only had to meet a few criteria: "defined as believing that absolute moral truth exists; the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches; Satan is considered to be a real being or force, not merely symbolic; a person cannot earn their way into Heaven by trying to be good or do good works; Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; and God is the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of the world who still rules the universe today."[4]. This is just the most basic outline of Christianity, yet only 9% of Americans (supposedly a "Christian nation") are actually Christian in their beliefs!. So there will most likely be plenty of people left on earth after the Rapture who thought they were Christian, yet were Christian in name only. Perhaps the Rapture will wake them up and they will take their faith more seriously, and will probably have a high chance of being martyred for it. There will also be many new Christian converts during the Tribulation.Let's assume that perhaps 30% of the left-behind Christians wake up and are martyred for their faith (the rest will probably follow the Antichrist and the false world religion - Revelation 13:8-15), and perhaps gain an extra 15% of new converts. That's 200 million raptured (10%) and so we are left with 1.8 billion "Christians" after the Rapture. Only 30% keep their faith (540 million), and 15% new converts (270 million) = 810 million Christians. Let's assume not all of them die - perhaps 5% (40 million) of these will escape the Antichrist and survive the 7 year Tribulation. This gives us a total of 770 million Christian martyrs. This would certainly match the "crowd too large to be counted" that John saw in his vision. These numbers are just my estimates, and there could be a larger number who are Raptured, or a larger number who convert after the Rapture.Various DisastersAlready, we are at 4.76 of 7 billion people dead during the Tribulation.

    This still does not include the deaths of people from the earthquakes, hailstones, asteroids, and wildfires which make up the rest of the judgements. Even a relatively localized earthquake can cause massive destruction as we saw happen in Haiti in 2010. The Haiti earthquake in 2010 was estimated to cause between 50,000 and 300,000 deaths [5]. The earthquakes in the Tribulation will be worldwide and much worse than this one. I would guess probably 100 million dead from these earthquakes, and probably developed countries will do better than poor ones. This brings us up to 4.86 million deaths total in the Tribulation.The asteroids will probably be smaller than the ones in the movies Armageddon or Deep Impact, but they will still probably cause some deaths. There aren't really any good stats about deaths vs. asteroid impacts since asteroid impacts are quite rare. Probably the best stats we have are from one asteroid which exploded over Russia back in 1908 [6]. It was estimated as being "1,000 times as powerful as the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima". "The explosion knocked over an estimated 80 million trees covering 2,150 square kilometres (830 sq mi). It is estimated that the shock wave from the blast would have measured 5.0 on the Richter scale. An explosion of this magnitude is capable of destroying a large metropolitan area."[6]. This asteroid was only maybe a few "tens of meters" across - so perhaps as large as a football field. Maybe this will be the approximate size of the smaller meteors in Seal #6, which are described as "figs" (Revelation 6:13).

    However, the asteroid described in the Trumpet #2 is called a "fiery mountain" (Revelation 8:8). This could be significantly larger than the one that hit Russia, but fortunately it lands in the ocean. It would probably cause a tsunami and depending on the exact size and impact location it could bring quite a bit of destruction. Let's assume perhaps another 500 million dead from the effects of the asteroids. That brings us up to about 5.4 billion dead from the whole Tribulation.Total Approximate Deaths During the TribulationBased on the Bible and analysis of the various wars, famines, disasters, and various other events of the Tribulation, I have estimated that the total number of deaths over the 7 year period will be approximately 5.4 billion people, assuming a starting population of 7 billion. This means you have about a 23% chance of making it through the Tribulation. This is not including the probably several million who will die from the various other disasters which we were unable to estimate, so it might even be lower than that. Your chances of surviving the Tribulation will probably be slightly higher if you do not get drafted into the military and are not a Christian.What Happens After The Tribulation?Congratulations - you have somehow managed to survive the Tribulation. But wait... there is one last thing you'll have to survive in order to make it into the Millennium (the time period of 1000 years after the Tribulation - Revelation 20:1-6). When Jesus comes back and sets up his kingdom on earth, he will judge all those who have survived. "When the Son of Man comes in his glory with all of his angels, he will sit on his royal throne. The people of all nations will be brought before him."(Matthew 15:31-32).

    Here all the survivors of the Tribulation will be judged personally by Jesus. He will either say "My father has blessed you! Come and receive the kingdom that was prepared for you before the world was created."(Matthew 25:34) or he will say "Get away from me! You are under God's curse. Go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels!"(Matthew 25:41). What will Jesus use as the judgement criteria? "When I was hungry, you gave me something to eat, and when I was thirsty you gave me something to drink. When I was a stranger, you welcomed me, and when I was naked, you gave me clothes to wear. When I was sick, you took care of me, and when I was in jail you visited me" (Matthew 25:25-36 and Matthew 10:40-42).So it seems that this judgement is not necessarily based on being a Christian. Instead, Jesus views people's actions during the Tribulation towards the persecuted Christians and the 144,000 special Jews as being done towards Himself. If you help them, it's like you helped Jesus, and the reward is you may enter the Millennium. If you did not help them, then you are thrown into the Lake of Fire, where the Antichrist, False Prophet, and eventually Satan and the demons will end up (Revelation 19:20 and 20:14-15). Interestingly, this type of judgement is part of the original Covenant that God made with Abraham: "I will bless anyone who blesses you (Israel), but I will put a curse on anyone who puts a curse on you (Israel)."(Genesis 12:3).We have estimated 1.6 billion Tribulation survivors.

    The number who will be judged by Jesus will be much lower, as anyone who took the Mark of the Beast will be "tortured with fire and burning sulfur" (Revelation 14:10) which is probably the Lake of Fire. So since the majority of people may have taken the Mark, perhaps only 10% (160 million) of people managed to survive without the Mark during the Tribulation. Then, of that group perhaps only 50% (80 million) would have helped a Christian or Jew. So this 80 million, plus the perhaps 40 million Christian survivors (as estimated earlier) makes a total of 120 million people who would be allowed to live in the Millennium and repopulate the world. During this time these people will have kids and will be ruled under the government of Jesus.Total World Population at the Beginning of the MillenniumSo now if we see the chances of a person surviving not only the Tribulation, but the judgement afterwards, it decreases to 120 million out of 7 billion people, which is about 1.7%. 98.3% of the world's population will have been killed from the wars and disasters, or will be condemned to the lake of fire for taking the Mark of the Beast or not passing Jesus' judgement. Only 120 million will enter the Millennium under Jesus' rule. However, that is not the end of humanity. People will repopulate, and the world population in the Millennium may grow to dwarf what we experience now. Under the Millennium nature will be restored and it will be easier to grow food (Amos 9:13). People will also live longer and be able to have more kids in a lifetime (Isaiah 65:21-25). These two factors will allow the population to quickly recover and surpass the levels before the Tribulation.So why should you care?So what does all this have to do with you?

    Besides being perhaps theoretically interesting to Christian end-times scholars, would any other people care? I think people should care. If you are a Christian now (and a real Christian - not one who is Christian in name only, but actually believes it and loves Jesus) then you don't have to worry about all of this. Jesus comes to take all the real Christians to heaven in the Rapturebefore the Tribulation begins. If you don't know for sure if you would be Raptured, now is a good time to think and pray about it and work on your relationship with Jesus. Then you can feel secure and not be afraid when there are disasters all around us, even before the Tribulation starts. If you are a Christian now, then you need to think about those around you who are not. If you have friends or family who are not Christian they will probably die during the Tribulation. It's important that you tell them now how to avoid it and accept Jesus as their saviour.If you're not a Christian, this should be a warning to you. There is only a small chance that you'll make it through the disasters of the Tribulation, and an even smaller chance of making it into the Millennium. If the Tribulation starts, there is a very high chance that you will die in the next 7 years. And if you're not a Christian when you die, then you will end up in hell forever. God doesn't want this to happen - God wants you to accept him today, before any judgements begin. Even if you don't make up your mind for Jesus until the Rapture happens, which means you may die from the disasters or be killed by the Antichrist, it is much better to believe in Jesus than to end up in hell. This is a warning that you need to think about what is important and to consider what may happen when you die - you might even die tomorrow. I believe the Tribulation is approaching quickly, and the Rapture could happen anytime. Please consider learning more about Jesus and how to be saved before it's too late. A couple of introductory articles I have written on how to follow Jesus are written here and here.References[1] Wikipedia.org - List of

    Countries by Population
    [2] Wikipedia.org - Starvation
    [3] Wikipedia.org - World Religions: Largest Religions or Belief Systems By Number of Adherents
    [4] Barna: Changes in Worldview Among Christians Over Past 13 Years
    [5] Wikipedia.org - Casualties of the 2010 Haiti Earthquake
    [6] Wikipedia.org - Tunguska Event

    Source: http://zoeqa.com/questions/who_will_sur ... ation.html

  14. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Note that the end of the 2nd Jewish temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in Jerusalem in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus Christ spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken right after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1). And one of the main temple-complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

    Also, in Matthew 24:2 the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    When Jesus Christ says: "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20), He's referring to the 1st part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says: "the desolation" in Luke 21:20, He's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15, He's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31.

    So Luke 21:20-23 isn't referring to 70 AD, nor (as is sometimes claimed) to the pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur at the very end of the future Tribulation, right before Jesus' Second Coming to save Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), but is referring to what will happen mid-tribulation, when the future Antichrist will antitypically fulfill Daniel 11:31 at the start of his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), during which 3.5 years Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2b), which future treading down is what Luke 21:24 is referring to.
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Why does partial preterism believe in a future Second Coming, but not a future Tribulation, when:

    1. The Second Coming and rapture (the gathering together/catching up together of the Church: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) must occur "immediately after" the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6);

    2. The Second Coming and rapture can't occur until sometime after the man of sin (commonly called the Antichrist, also called the beast) sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the Tribulation and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-18); and

    3. At Jesus' Second Coming to rapture and marry the Church, He will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20)?

    Partial preterism might answer: "It's obvious the Second Coming hasn't happened yet". And that's right. But full preterism nonetheless still mistakenly claims the Second Coming, resurrection, and rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54, and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) have already happened. For full preterism employs the same "it's only allegorical, not literal" argument which partial preterism uses to mistakenly claim all the highly-detailed, myriad different events of the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have already happened. If partial preterism has no problem accepting the Second Coming, resurrection of the Church, and rapture haven't occurred yet, for nowhere in history do we find the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (which are the same events as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54, and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), then why does partial preterism have a problem accepting the fact the events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 haven't occurred yet either, for nowhere in history do we find these events either?
  17. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Note that nothing in the Bible says or requires any Christian will be left behind at the rapture.

    Is such a mistaken idea usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize these passages refer to what will occur at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the Second Coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be non-Christians who will be taken where they will be killed by Jesus Himself, and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

    Those "left" where they are at Jesus' Second Coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include non-Christians who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the future Millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These non-Christians will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected Church during the Millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the Millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

    Before the Millennium, at Jesus Christ's Second Coming, those in the Church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) in the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so the Church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Him (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before He descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the Church to bring (Himself) the Second-Coming wrath of God on non-Christians (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

    So Jesus' Second Coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the Church will be raptured into the sky at the Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus Himself begins the Second-Coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    We have already covered this ground before, Bible2.

    Other Roman forts of the same time period are the same size and shape as the area now known as "the temple mount". The Jewish leader at Masada said during 73 AD that the only thing left in Jerusalem was that built by the Romans.

    Roman Fort Antonia is not part of the 2nd Jewish temple.

    Israeli archeologist Eli Shukron rediscovered the Pool of Siloam a few years ago.

    He recently discovered the basement of Solomon's Temple, near Gihon Spring.

    He also found a Roman coin under the bottom layer of stones of the "Wailing Wall" which dated around 17 AD. Therefore, that wall was built after Herod's temple.

    Sadly, modern Jews and Arabs are fighting over the remains of a fort built by the Romans to house the thousands of troops needed to police the city of Jerusalem, during the time of Christ.

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  19. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

    United States
    How did you determine that the rapture, or more appropriately, the removal of the righteous, would occur immediately after the Tribulation? I see the departure occurring before the man of sin is revealed, as per 2 Thessalonians 2:3. And it would seem that character comes on the scene before the Great Tribulation period.

    It has been proposed by some very knowledgeable Greek scholars that apostasia (translated "falling away" in some translations) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 actually is better translated simply as "the departure". Seems the vast majority of translations prior to the KJV came along did also. Virtually every Bible translation before the KJV used "departure" to translate apostasia. Even the Latin Vulgate, it uses the word discessio in translating apostasia. The idea of a physical departure is in view. And considering the LV originated roughly the 4th Century and was closer to the original text and the early writers, it would be reasonable to think they had a pretty good grasp on what the Greek apostasia meant in the text.

    The KJV translators imposed the anglicized word apostasy on the Greek apostasia. That has led to the faulty translation of "falling away" in the KJV and many translations since.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  20. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation, which pre-dates the KJV by over 200 years:

    3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

    Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

    Departing/departure means departure from the truth i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

    Wycliffe himself identified antichrist as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He unquestionably therefore did not believe in a pretrib rapture.

    And from Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

    Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    Calvin also identified antichrist as the papacy, and thus did not believe in a pretrib rapture.
    Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
    Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
    Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
    Beza was of like persuasion.

    There is no Reformer who defined the word as anything other than apostasy.

    A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

    Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
    "In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

    Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

    Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

    Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

    Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

    Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

    2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

    The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3

    In addition, of the more than fifty English Bible versions, you will not find a single one which translates 2 Thess. 2:3 as anything other than apostasy or falling away. These of course include the NASB and YLT. They also include DARBY and the SRB.