Why God's Purpose for the Tribulation excludes the Church

[claninja]

For the 10 virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows the marriage of the Church to Jesus Christ won't occur until His Second Coming

The problem with this statement is that Paul states in Ephesians 5 that as the husband is the head of the wife, Christ is the head of the church and as the husband an wife are one flesh, so to are Christ and the church. Paul doesn't say this will happen in the future, but that it has already happened

 

[Quasar92]

Rom 11:1　 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.　
Rom 11:2　 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,　
Rom 11:3　 "LORD, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS AND TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY SEEK MY LIFE"?　
Rom 11:4　 But what does the divine response say to him? "I HAVE RESERVED FOR MYSELF SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."　
Rom 11:5　 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.　


Rom 11:17　 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,　

Only "some" of the Israelites were broken off of the tree in the verse above.

Throughout Romans 11 Paul deals with two different groups of Israelites, one faithful and one not.
We see this in Romans 11:1-5.

Paul ends the chapter in the same way with two different groups of "they" in Romans 11:28. One group of "they" rejected Christ and are enemies of the Gospel. There is another group of "they" who are the "election" who accept Christ.

Your claim that all of Israel rejected the Messiah falls apart in Romans 11:5.

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All believers whether Jews [Israelis] or Gentiles, are grafted into the Root- God/Jesus - NOT - into Israel! The Church is NOT ANY PART of Israel. The only division in Israel, were the twins, Esau [Edom] and Jacob [Israel], the twins of Rebecca, recorded in Gen.25:19-34..

The Remnant of Israel

11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. [Also a member of the Body of Christ, His Church] 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. [All of Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah, except for a few thousand, resulting in God allowing the destruction of their temple and the city of Jerusalem, and scattering them throughout the world, in an 1,878 years of exile].

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[c]

9 And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”[d]

Ingrafted Branches
11 Again I ask: Did they [Israel] stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root [God/Jesus Christ], 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they [Israel] do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

[All Israel will be saved at the second coming of Jesus as recorded in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5].

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

[Parenthetics and featuring mine]



Quasar92

 

[Copperhead]

The reference in Rom.11:17 is to God's ELECT. In the case of Israel, though they are God's elect [see verse 1], they DO NOT have their salvation. Because they rejected Jesus as their Messiah. So those branches are broken off of the ROOT/God's elect. While the Church are God's elect, through their belief in Jesus, as their Lord and Savior, and are grafted into the ROOT/God's elect.

According to Zech.12:10, Israel will be grafted back into the ROOT/God's elect, after believing/receiving Jesus as their Messiah, when He returns in His second advent.

Hope this helps.


Quasar92

What of those of Israel that believed at Pentacost right on up thru those that believe today? The reference of Israel being grafted back in can only mean on a national sense, not an individual sense. Paul was of Israel, Peter was of Israel, as all the writers of the NT with the possible exception of Luke.

Individual Jews have not rejected Yeshua. National, corporate Israel rejected Yeshua. And the Great Tribulation / 70th week of Daniel is designed to do just that... drive corporate, national Israel to call for the Messiah to return (Hosea 5:15 - 6:2)

Branches are on an individual level, not a corporate level. One cannot corporately apply Israel or Church to the branches. We all know that all that are of Israel are not saved, and also all that are in the corporate church are not saved. Did not the writers in the NT warn of wolves mingling in among the flock? Did not Yeshua warn of us of tares being sown among the wheat? One has to get beyond the physical to the spiritual to see the application of root and branches.

Those that trust in Yeshua make up the body of Messiah. That is the true ekklesia. It is not physical Israel or physical corporate church. Of those in the body, these physical distinctions disappear on a spiritual level. All are of the Body. And only Messiah knows them.

 

[claninja]

The Church is NOT ANY PART of Israel.

So are you saying the body of Christ is not part of Abraham's offspring?

Galatians 3:9, 29 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

 

[Copperhead]

So are you saying the body of Christ is not part of Abraham's offspring?

Galatians 3:9, 29 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Heirs in a spiritual positional sense. Not in a physical sense. Yeshua is called the first born Son of God. Was there more? Of course not. First born is a positional application. Being of Abraham's seed and heirs is a positional application, not a physical one.

 

[claninja]

Heirs in a spiritual positional sense. Not in a physical sense. Yeshua is called the first born Son of God. Was there more? Of course not. First born is a positional application. Being of Abraham's seed and heirs is a positional application, not a physical one.

Yes, I agree, as this my point, spiritual is always better than physical. And not all physical, fleshly descendants of Israel are Israel, only those of the promise.

 

[Quasar92]

What of those of Israel that believed at Pentacost right on up thru those that believe today? The reference of Israel being grafted back in can only mean on a national sense, not an individual sense. Paul was of Israel, Peter was of Israel, as all the writers of the NT with the possible exception of Luke.

Individual Jews have not rejected Yeshua. National, corporate Israel rejected Yeshua. And the Great Tribulation / 70th week of Daniel is designed to do just that... drive corporate, national Israel to call for the Messiah to return (Hosea 5:15 - 6:2)

Branches are on an individual level, not a corporate level. One cannot corporately apply Israel or Church to the branches. We all know that all that are of Israel are not saved, and also all that are in the corporate church are not saved. Did not the writers in the NT warn of wolves mingling in among the flock? Did not Yeshua warn of us of tares being sown among the wheat? One has to get beyond the physical to the spiritual to see the application of root and branches.

Those that trust in Yeshua make up the body of Messiah. That is the true ekklesia. It is not physical Israel or physical corporate church. Of those in the body, these physical distinctions disappear on a spiritual level. All are of the Body. And only Messiah knows them.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish, but have eternal life,: Jn.3:16.

Whosoever - is personally directed to any single person. The one body of Christ is His Church, consisting of Jews and Gentiles alike. Each one, when and as he/she comes to the Lord.


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

[All Israel will be saved at the second coming of Jesus as recorded in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5].

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]

And in "what way" will "all" of the remnant of Israel be saved?

Rom 11:23　 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.　
Rom 11:24　 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?　


And when did the deliverer come out of Zion?
And when did He take away sin?

Heb 10:16　 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;　

Heb 10:17　 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.　

Heb 10:18　 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
　


And when does the times of the Gentiles come to an end?

Luk 21:24　 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:25　 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;　

Luk 21:26　 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

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[Quasar92]

And in "what way" will "all" of the remnant of Israel be saved?

Rom 11:23　 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.　
Rom 11:24　 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?　


And when did the deliverer come out of Zion?
And when did He take away sin?

Heb 10:16　 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;　

Heb 10:17　 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.　

Heb 10:18　 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
　


And when does the times of the Gentiles come to an end?

Luk 21:24　 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:25　 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;　

Luk 21:26　 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

.

FYI, that all Israel will be saved, id documented in the Bible. Which has been posted many times over previously. That you question the validity of it, is something I am powerless to relieve you of!


All Israel Will Be Saved

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

[All Israel will be saved at the second coming of Jesus as recorded in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5].


Quasar92

 

[Bible2+]

claninja said in post #181:

The problem with this statement is that Paul states in Ephesians 5 that as the husband is the head of the wife, Christ is the head of the church and as the husband an wife are one flesh, so to are Christ and the church. Paul doesn't say this will happen in the future, but that it has already happened

The Church is already married to Jesus Christ in one sense (2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:30-32). But there will still be a future wedding ceremony at Jesus' Second Coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7).

In Revelation 19:7, the Church is in the 1st heaven, the sky, for its wedding. And it got there at the post-tribulation rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31).

 

[Bible2+]

claninja said in post #186:

And not all physical, fleshly descendants of Israel are Israel, only those of the promise.

That's right.

All genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

All Christian Jews and Gentiles are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Christian Jews and Gentiles are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh" the apostle Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26) and some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27) just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

 

[BABerean2]

FYI, that all Israel will be saved, id documented in the Bible. Which has been posted many times over previously. That you question the validity of it, is something I am powerless to relieve you of!

You must mean "all" of the "remnant", that Paul referred to in chapter 9 of Romans, unless you think Paul changed his mind in chapter 11.

Rom 9:27　 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.　


Not based on the flesh, but based on faith in Christ.

Rom 9:8　 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.　


Many of the proponents of modern Dispensational Theology have a habit of changing the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26. I have heard John Hagee do this on television.
I have heard David Jeremiah leave out the word "so", to make your doctrine work. Changing or leaving out one word is a corruption of scripture.

And based on the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25, they will not be saved at His Second Coming.

Just as you have ripped "the time of Jacob's trouble" out of the Babylonian captivity, you have ripped Zechariah 12:10 out of the Day of Pentecost. This was when those who had Christ pierced a few weeks earlier mourned for what they had done and the Spirit was poured out on "all the house of Israel", found in Acts 2:36.

This is how the "remnant" that are the "children of the promise" will be grafted back into the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ, before the Second Coming.


Exegesis of Romans 11, by Brother David H. J. Gay
03 - The Exegesis

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[Quasar92]

You must mean "all" of the "remnant", that Paul referred to in chapter 9 of Romans, unless you think Paul changed his mind in chapter 11.

Rom 9:27　 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.　


Not based on the flesh, but based on faith in Christ.

Rom 9:8　 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.　


Many of the proponents of modern Dispensational Theology have a habit of changing the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26. I have heard John Hagee do this on television.
I have heard David Jeremiah leave out the word "so", to make your doctrine work. Changing or leaving out one word is a corruption of scripture.

And based on the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25, they will not be saved at His Second Coming.

Just as you have ripped "the time of Jacob's trouble" out of the Babylonian captivity, you have ripped Zechariah 12:10 out of the Day of Pentecost. This was when those who had Christ pierced a few weeks earlier mourned for what they had done and the Spirit was poured out on "all the house of Israel", found in Acts 2:36.

This is how the "remnant" that are the "children of the promise" will be grafted back into the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ, before the Second Coming.


Exegesis of Romans 11, by Brother David H. J. Gay
03 - The Exegesis

.

What Paul said in Rom.11:26, that all Israel will be saved, is precisely what I meant. Yes, it will be a remnant of their population from when the tribulation they will through begins, that will be left at the end of it. As it so states in Zech.13:8, there will only be one third of them left. As such, prophecy will be fulfilled, and as Paul so states, all of Israel will be saved!


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

What Paul said in Rom.11:26, that all Israel will be saved, is precisely what I meant.

No. That is not what Paul said.

Just like Dr. David Jeremiah, you left out the word "so", which is the Greek word "houto".
It refers to the manner of their salvation, instead of the timing of their salvation.

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[Bible2+]

BABerean2 said in post #192:

Many of the proponents of modern Dispensational Theology have a habit of changing the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Note here the original Greek word (houto: G3779) translated as "so" can be used in the sense of "then" (Acts 20:11b). For it can refer to "what precedes or follows" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). That is, the salvation of all the surviving, elect genetic Jews in Romans 11:26 will follow the fullness of the Gentiles being come in, in Romans 11:25c, which will happen near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Also, regarding "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer", this refers to Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31), when all the still-living, non-Christian, elect genetic Jews (Romans 11:28-29) will become Christians when they see the physically returned Jesus in person and believe in Him (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Isaiah 4:3-4, Romans 11:26).

 

[Bible2+]

BABerean2 said in post #192:

Many of the proponents of modern Dispensational Theology have a habit of changing the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26.

Regarding Dispensational Theology, note it should be distinguished from Christian Futurism per se.

For Christian Futurism per se is correct, because the Tribulation and subsequent Second-Coming prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 and Matthew 24 haven't yet been fulfilled, just as the prophecies of the subsequent Millennium (e.g. Revelation 20:4-6 and Zechariah 14) haven't yet been fulfilled.

But Dispensationalism is mistaken because it sets up a mutual exclusiveness between the Church and Israel.

Also, Dispensationalism is mistaken because it teaches a pre-tribulation rapture.

--

Dispensationalism seems to be based on the mistaken idea Ephesians 3:2 refers to a period of time (a so-called age of grace, or Church age) which doesn't include Israel and which will end when the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins.

But regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires only the present age is an age of grace or a Church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a Church age.

Also, the present age can include the future Tribulation (of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24) and the subsequent Millennium (of Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the New Earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all non-Christians will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future Millennium (Revelation 20:7-15)..

 

[jgr]

For Christian Futurism per se is correct, because the Tribulation and subsequent Second-Coming prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 and Matthew 24 haven't yet been fulfilled

Re. Matthew 24...you wouldn't be able to convince Christ and the disciples of that.
Post #84

Futurism originated in the counter-Reformation speculations of the apostate Roman church in the 16th century. Jesuit Francisco Ribera is its acknowledged father. The pseudo-doctrine was contrived to deflect the Reformation teaching of the papacy as (an) antichrist.

 

[BABerean2]

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Note here the original Greek word (houto: G3779) translated as "so" can be used in the sense of "then" (Acts 20:11b). For it can refer to "what precedes or follows" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). That is, the salvation of all the surviving, elect genetic Jews in Romans 11:26 will follow the fullness of the Gentiles being come in, in Romans 11:25c, which will happen near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Also, regarding "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer", this refers to Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31), when all the still-living, non-Christian, elect genetic Jews (Romans 11:28-29) will become Christians when they see the physically returned Jesus in person and believe in Him (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Isaiah 4:3-4, Romans 11:26).

(KJV+)　 WhenG1161 he therefore was come up again,G305 andG2532 had brokenG2806 bread,G740 andG2532 eaten,G1089 andG5037 talkedG3656 a long while,G1909 G2425 even tillG891 break of day,G827 soG3779 he departed.G1831

The word Greek word "houto" is being used to describe the "manner" in which something was done.
The word "till" is describing the timing in the verse above.

The Deliver came out of Sion about 2,000 years ago.

The Covenant in Romans 11 is the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28) fulfilled for all races of people at Calvary (Hebrews 10:16-18). It is not a future covenant with the modern State of Israel, as proponents of modern Dispensational Theology often claim.

Based on the parable of the virgins from Matthew 25, there will be no second chances at His Second Coming.

.

 

[Hal A Peno]

Re. Matthew 24...you wouldn't be able to convince Christ and the disciples of that.
Post #84

Futurism originated in the counter-Reformation speculations of the apostate Roman church in the 16th century. Jesuit Francisco Ribera is its acknowledged father. The pseudo-doctrine was contrived to deflect the Reformation teaching of the papacy as (an) antichrist.

I think it's a bunch of hogwash that the Jesuits came up with the futurist view. Futurist things were hashed around and discussed for centuries and thousands of people believed otherwise, it just wasn't documented as a book or decree. It just makes no sense that people before the 1,500's would only believe Rome was the culprit when Muslims were on the warpath more than Rome was between 1,000 and AD 1,700.

It has been customary to describe the Crusades as eight in number:

• the first, 1095-1101;
• the second, headed by Louis VII, 1145-47;
• the third, conducted by Philip Augustus and Richard Coeur-de-Lion, 1188-92;
• the fourth, during which Constantinople was taken, 1204;
• the fifth, which included the conquest of Damietta, 1217;
• the sixth, in which Frederick II took part (1228-29); also Thibaud de Champagne and Richard of Cornwall (1239);
• the seventh, led by St. Louis, 1249-52;
• the eighth, also under St. Louis, 1270.

This division is arbitrary and excludes many important expeditions, among them those of the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. In reality the Crusades continued until the end of the seventeenth century, the crusade of Lepanto occurring in 1571, that of Hungary in 1664, and the crusade of the Duke of Burgundy to Candia, in 1669.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Crusades
______________________________________________________________________________
If it wouldn't be for the Catholics today, the entire planet would be Islamic and ruled by Muslims, and all of the holy sites in Israel destroyed.

 

[jgr]

I think it's a bunch of hogwash that the Jesuits came up with the futurist view.

Francisco Ribera - Wikipedia
Francisco Ribera (1537–1591) was a Spanish Jesuit theologian, identified with the Futurist Christian eschatological view.