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Featured Why God's Purpose for the Tribulation excludes the Church

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Is there a kingdom on this earth? I thought Yeshua told Pilate that His kingdom is not of this world?
     
  2. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Several translations of the Greek New Covenant scriptures into English prior to the King James Authorized version of 1611 translate apostasia as either the departure or the departing. Here are literal quotes from some of those translations:

    • The Tyndale Bible (1526 / 1534) "a departynge fyrst"

    • The Coverdale Bible (1539) "a departynge come firft"

    • The Cranmer Bible (1539) "a departynge fyrst"

    • and The Geneva Bible (1557 / 1608) "a departing first"

    Also the Wycliff Bible of 1384, the Breches Bible of 1576, and the Beza Bible of 1583.

    Eprhraim the Syrian (also known as Pseudo Ephraim) is one of several writers prior to even the Latin Vulgate that espoused a pre-trib removal of the righteous. Isaac Newton, who was a prolific Bible expositor along with his more well known accomplishments, also held a pre-trib position. The post apostolic document "The Shepherd of Hermas" (140) espoused a pre-trib position. Morgan Edwards of England (1722-1795) also explicitly held a pre-Trib position.

    if you notice, every reference I mentioned in this post pre-dates Darby by at least one century, with the bulk of the references going back further. Darby was late to the party.

    Apostasy is an anglicized word, not a Greek word, that does not hold the same meaning. Kenneth Wuest, a well known Greek scholar, in his multi volume work on the NT elaborates that apostasia can only mean, literally, a departure. For it to mean departing in the sense of falling away, there also has to be a direct reference to what is being departed from, such as in Acts 21:21 (the only other passage that has apostasia), where the discussion revolves around departing from the Law and forsaking Moses. The 2 Thessalonians 2:3 usage doesn't include a definite article that can be referenced as what is being departed from, so the meaning of apostasia then stands on its own as a departure.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  3. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you review all of the links I posted in detail, you'll see all of your issues addressed.

    Wycliffe, the first English version in the later 1300s, translates the word as dissension or departure from the truth or faith. With the true Church suffering under the papal antichrist, he did not subscribe to a pretrib rapture (nor is there any evidence that he was even aware of such). The same is true of all of the Reformers.
     
  4. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Actually, the dissension or departure from the faith is a text note, and not the actual text of the translation. That is is an expositional commentary note on the original Wycliff Bible. Notice the brackets in your post of the text? That is expositional commentary put in the text after the translation had been written. The original Wycliff bible did not have study guide expositional commentary on the text. It is the presupposition of whoever put the commentary in the text.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Doesn't change his unawareness of a pretrib rapture.
     
  6. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Are you claiming the wall was built in 17 AD?

    If so, then the point is moot. For whoever built it or whenever it was built, the Western Wall of the Temple Mount, also called the Wailing Wall, existed at the time Jesus Christ spoke Matthew 24. And so "not one stone" (Matthew 24:3) remains unfulfilled, for the reasons given in a prior post.

    Also, the Jews aren't stupid. They don't make a meaningless wall their most holy place of worship on the earth.

    Also, it isn't credible the coin was found under the Western (or Wailing) Wall of the Temple Mount. For the religious Jews wouldn't permit any digging there, the holiest place of worship for the Jews. Instead, the coin could have been found by digging under a different wall, such as one at the southern end of the Temple Mount.

    That is, the religious Jews wouldn't allow archaeologists to literally undermine and create huge mounds of dirt at the holiest place of worship for the Jews (the Western or Wailing Wall of the Temple Mount). So the only way for the archaeologists to dig under that wall would be for them to enter in the dead of night with their picks and shovels into the synagogue just off the north end of the Wailing Wall. Then they would have to get through a locked, wrought-iron gate in the eastern wall of that synagogue. This gate blocks entrance to a tunnel running east under the Muslim Dome of the Rock in the center of the Temple Mount. Then the archaeologists would have to go into this tunnel a short distance and start digging a tunnel southward along the backside of the Wailing Wall. Then, after some distance they would have to start digging downward through the dirt just east of the wall until they reached the bottom of the wall. Then they would have to start digging under the wall, literally "undermining" the holiest place of worship in the world left to the Jews. Then they would have to "discover" (instead of surreptitiously place) a Roman coin of a certain date under the wall.

    All this digging would outrage the religious Jews, who could not only demand a halt to the undermining of the Wailing Wall, but also demand a permanent blockage be placed at that gate in the synagogue to the north of the Wailing Wall (if this hasn't already happened). Or, some ultra-Orthodox Jews in their rage at the defilement of the Wailing Wall and the Temple Mount (including by Muslims today) could in the dead of night break through the gate and use the tunnel behind it to detonate explosives beneath the Muslim Dome of the Rock, damaging it seriously enough to forestall its continued use by the Muslims. That is, it could be condemned by Israeli authorities as too dangerous to enter. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could then claim this damage was "a holy mission from God" to ruin the Dome so it can be replaced by a 3rd Jewish temple.

    Note that the Roman fort was only at the north end of the Temple Mount. (See the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine.)

    Also, this National Geographic map-insert explains that the name "Rock of Sacrifice" is based on the long-held tradition it was where Abraham was commanded to sacrifice Isaac (the Muslims mistakenly say Ishmael) some 4,000 years ago (Genesis 22:2).

    No archaeological evidence has ever disproven the long-held tradition that the most holy place of both the 1st and 2nd Jewish temples was built on the Rock of Sacrifice, over which the Muslims later built the still-standing Dome of the Rock.

    --

    Also, note that Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple will coexist with the Church like the 2nd temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews, after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the future Antichrist could attack and defeat them, and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

    Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to (mistakenly) perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least seven years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque in order to keep the temple from being "defiled".
     
  7. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding "the departure", or the "falling away" (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it's the apostasy, when some in the Church will depart from faith in Jesus Christ in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and begins a worldwide persecution against the Church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the Church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

    The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it's derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the 1st century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from faith in Jesus Christ. Also, at the rapture, the Church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus Christ at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

    Regarding when "the man of sin is revealed", 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (that is, without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things which have to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the Church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at the Second Coming, the Antichrist will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).

    The Antichrist may not appear on the world stage until after the horrible, future, Tribulation-starting war of Revelation 6:4-8 and Daniel 11:15-17 has resulted in the total defeat and occupation of Israel, and Egypt, and the death of 1/4 of the world. It could be this war which will help open the way for the Antichrist to arise on the world stage as a great man of peace and antitypically fulfill the "vile" person of Daniel 11:21-45.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  8. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    John 18:36 means Jesus Christ's future, physical reign on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) won't be of this world in the sense it won't come by worldly means, such as by the Church fighting physically to establish it (2 Corinthians 10:3-4, Matthew 26:52, Matthew 5:39). Instead, it will come only by Jesus Himself returning physically from heaven to establish it (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Also, after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), a New Earth will be created and God's Kingdom will continue forever on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

    Presently the Kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24) and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future the Kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21) and then on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

    Jesus Christ's Kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at His future, Second Coming, He will sit on the earthly throne of King David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in His humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' Second Coming, He will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And He will bring salvation to all the still-living, non-Christian elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, non-Christian elect Jews) will become Christians when they see Jesus at His Second Coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the Church at that time. For there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    After Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected Church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the Church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).
     
  9. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that when the unknown writer of the document called "Pseudo (False) Ephraem" says: "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation" (Section 2), he doesn't mean prior to the tribulation of Matthew 24. For that would contradict the Biblical teaching that the elect are gathered immediately "after the tribulation" of Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, the writer of Pseudo Ephraem mistakenly thought the 1st half of Matthew 24's tribulation had already occurred by his time, and that all that was left to happen was the time of the Antichrist: "Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord [cf. Matthew 24:6-7], they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [cf. Matthew 24:15-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8]" (Section 2).

    And the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows the Church will have to go through the time of the Antichrist: "those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent [cf. Revelation 12:14,9,17], bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the udders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs" (Section 8). There's no salvation apart from being a Christian (John 3:36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12), and there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). The writer of Pseudo Ephraem again in Section 9 shows the Church will have to go through the time of the Antichrist: "when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so they may be found good by their Lord". No one is just or found good (Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no one who has this faith is outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    And in Section 4 the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows some in the Church will die during the time of the Antichrist: "In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them". So in the latter half of Section 2, when the writer of Pseudo Ephraem says: "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation", he doesn't mean prior to Matthew 24's tribulation. What he means is partially found in the 1st half of Section 2: "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world". What the writer means by "the confusion" (and so also by "the tribulation") is explained in Section 10: "Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth".

    So the writer of Pseudo Ephraem is referring to the confusion and destruction of the Antichrist and the world's armies at the Second-Coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which the Church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17), and to be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7).
     
  10. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    You are imposing your view on what Ephraim wrote, as if you know exactly what he had in mind. That is pretty arrogant on your part. It is pretty convenient to presume what others were saying to make it fit your perception. Really too bad he isn't around.

    And your presumption is that the elect of the Matthew 24 verse are only those in the church. God explicitly states that Israel is His elect in Isaiah 45:4. Considering that one of the Great Tribulation's main purposes is to get national Israel to call out for the Messiah's return (Hosea 5:15 and expounded on by Yeshua in Matthew 23:39), where Yeshua Himself said He would not return until they did call out for Him, in accordance with Hosea. There is clearly a Hebrew nation in view that could not mean the church, as the church, including believing g Jews, did not commit an offense that caused Yeshua to return to His place. Only national Israel did that, and in the future, they will have to acknowledge that offense and call out for His return before He will return. National Israel is clearly the main focus. Those in the church are elect in the sense of being in Christ, but all Israel is elect for the sake of the patriarchs. You are confusing two different groups. Paul confirms my assertion.

    Romans 11:28-29 (NKJV) Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  11. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Doesn't support your contention that Wycliff didn't have a departure in view either. You are basing your assertion on commentary.
     
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How could he have a departure in view when he believed (correctly) that the Church was enduring the papal antichrist?
     
  13. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not sure which translation you're working from, but here is the quote from Wyclif's 1380 version:

    "For but dissencioun come first, and the man of synne be schewid..."

    The word "dissencioun" is of course old/middle English. When "dissencioun" is plugged into the Middle English Dictionary, the result is:

    (a) Disagreement in sentiment or opinion; esp., overt dissension, quarreling, civil strife; maken (meven, setten)~; fallen at (upon) ~, to start to quarrel; (b) a disagreement, dispute, quarrel, conflict; (c) dissent; with ~, by way of dissent; (d) phys. conflict, lack of harmony (between opposite qualities).

    "Depart" or any of its derivations is not seen.
     
  14. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Jesus states he and the apostles are not of this world. Does that mean they never existed in the world?

    John 17:14-16 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

    Were the Pharisees in heaven when Jesus said the kingdom is in the midst of them?

    Luke 17:20-21 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

    Let's not forget what the kingdom of heaven is like:

    Matthew 13:31-32 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field. It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.”
     
  15. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Well that is the problem right there. Whether the pope is antichrist or not is a concept that one may or may not hold, it doesn't mean the false messiah, man of sin, son of perdition, etc that scripture talks about. It mentions that there are many antichrists and many have a spirit of antichrist, but 2 Thessalonians 2:3 has only one in view and it doesn't give us the pleasure of telling us whether it is the RCC. And whether the RCC is the source of the problem in the 70th week of Daniel stuff is pure speculation also. The RCC may have ecumenical desires and want to be a part of the nonsense, but it is speculation, pure and simple, as to whether the RCC plays a major role and the pope at the time is of any significance.

    It is this sort of thing that caused Paul to write to the Thessalonians a second time. Someone had written a letter that they attributed to Paul, saying that because the trials they were enduring, they had missed the removal and now were in the Great Tribulation. Paul had to remind them of what he told them when he was with them, that the departure must come first before the man of sin could be revealed. If they were meant to go thru the Tribulation, why did Paul even need to write anything? For therm to fear that they were in the tribulation shows that they had been told by Paul that the righteous would not go thru the tribulation. And all these folks had for scripture was the OT, and if one is going to assert that the righteous have to endure that wrath of God, it has to be supported in the OT. The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures (OT) daily to see if what Paul was telling them was true.

    Isaiah 26 shows that both the resurrected dead and the righteous are hidden in their chambers during the time of the wrath of God. Psalm 27 shores that up. Zephaniah also supports the idea. Yeshua said He was going to prepare many chambers or rooms for us. Yeshua said the gates of Hell would not prevail against the church, but the son of Hell would prevail against the saints as mentioned in both Daniel and Revelation. So which is it? It is conditional on Israel itself when the Messiah would return. Hosea 5:15 says that.

    One thing that many fail to realize, is that there are two of these guys working in tandem. The RCC may be the beast of the false prophet, but even that is speculation. The European Union has as its logo a woman riding a beast (Europa riding Zeus), but it doesn't mean for certain that it is the false prophet either, or even plays a major part in anything.

    I am convinced that the main reason we are not given a more accurate way of knowing who the actual false prophet and false messiah are is that the church, as it is now, will not be around to see them show up. After all, the God had no problem mentioning by name Cyrus (in Isaiah) who would give the decree for Israel to return and rebuild the temple at the end of the Babylonian captivity, and Cyrus was mentioned 150 years before He was around. Given that the future 70th week of Daniel is of a nature that exceeds anything that has come before it, why isn't the name of the False Messiah and the False Prophet mentioned? It may be speculation also, but one with some validity, that the righteous are gathered before these characters are revealed, so there is no need for God to let us know their names like He desired for the Hebrews in captivity.

    And prophecy is pattern. Noah was locked into the ark by God 7 days before the flood came. Lot, a picture of a mediocre or backslidden believer if there ever was one, was taken out of Sodom before the angels could destroy it. Joash, the heir to the royal line of David, was hidden in the temple for 7 years from Athalia and her reign of destruction in Israel. And there are other examples, all of which show that those who God favors, rightfully or not, are kept from disaster.
     
  16. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    And who are the birds? Yeshua made that clear in a previous parable. They are the evil ones who snatched up the seed in the parable of the sower. Let's take it a step further. What of the parable of the leaven? Leaven is a symbol of sin throughout the scripture. It is symbolic of pride in that it puffs up. The kingdom is like a woman who hides leaven in 3 measures of meal and it eventually permeates the entire thing. 3 measures of meal is the fellowship offering at the temple. Hiding leaven in it is a sin punishable by stoning. Both of these parables paint a pretty bad picture of the Kingdom. And they are not the only ones. And the OT prophets even wrote some pretty bad stuff that goes on even during the reign of the Messiah upon the earth.

    The HS tends to use the same idioms in describing things throughout scripture. It is commonly referred to as the Law of Expositional Constancy.
     
  17. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    You didn't answer the questions I asked.

     
  18. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Reformers, who paid for their prophetic faith and obedience in blood, do not concur.
    The 70th week was fulfilled long before the RCC's appearance.
    They were troubled that "that the day of Christ is at hand." (v.2) There is nothing that says or implies that they were troubled because they had missed a removal, or believed they had missed one.
    Paul is issuing a consistent reiteration of his previous message (v. 5). Neither includes a removal.

    See also post #233 .
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  19. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most often referred to in order to refute the mistaken idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation coming of Jesus Christ and rapture (gathering together) of the Church, which won't happen until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-21). But the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 wasn't so much countering pre-tribulation rapturism as he was countering full preterism. Full preterism mistakenly says the Day of the Lord (Christ) is already at hand (2 Thessalonians 2:2), in the sense of already present, that the Second Coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the Church is already a present reality (2 Timothy 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism, for it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some Christians (2 Timothy 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Isaiah 26:19 refers to the physical resurrection of the Church, which won't happen until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-57, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    But Isaiah 26:20 starts a new idea, a new paragraph, like is indicated in some copies of the KJV. And Isaiah 26:20 also takes a step back chronologically from Isaiah 26:19, like how, for example, Matthew 14:3 takes a step back chronologically from Matthew 14:2. For Isaiah 26:20 is addressing those in the Church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the seven vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These Christians will still be waiting for Jesus Christ's Second Coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And they won't be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). So Isaiah 26:20 refers to them going into protective chambers they will have prepared on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark they'd prepared on the earth (Genesis 7:7). There would be no reason for resurrected, immortal people in heaven to hide (Isaiah 26:20b) from events happening on the earth.

    Also, Christians can prepare their Isaiah 26:20 chambers now, and hide in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the seven vials, but also during the just-preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the Church (not in hiding) who will still be alive on the earth (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
     
  20. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note there's no pre-tribulation-rapture idea in John 14:2-3, just as there's no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there's only a coming again of Jesus Christ (His Second Coming), and then a receiving of the Church unto Himself. Also, the pre-tribulation-rapture view can't (as is sometimes done) claim the rapture is referred to only by the apostle Paul, and then admit John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

    John 14:2 means one of the reasons Jesus Christ left was to prepare a place for the Church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the Church means He's not done with the Church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means the Church will be received to Jesus where He will be first at His Second Coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before He lands on the earth at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    The Church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the Millennium the physically resurrected Church will rule on the present earth with the returned Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

    Also, the Church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the Church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus Christ when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

    Note that just as Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome Christians in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10), so during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will prevail physically against Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    Matthew 16:18 meant the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against the "rock" in Matthew 16:18, which is Jesus Christ Himself (Matthew 16:16b,18b), the rock/stone on whom the Church/New Covenant Israel is built (Ephesians 2:20, Matthew 16:18b; 1 Peter 2:6), the rock/stone who was rejected and crucified (Romans 9:33, Acts 4:11; 1 Peter 2:4,8), the same rock/Christ who followed Old Covenant Israel/the church in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4-5, cf. Acts 7:38), and the same rock/Christ revered by New Covenant Israel/the Church (1 Peter 2:4-10).

    That is, Matthew 16:18 was prophesying of when the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against Jesus Christ (Psalms 107:16), when, after His physical resurrection, He went down and liberated the souls of the dead Old Testament believers from Hades (1 Peter 4:6; 1 Peter 3:18c-19, Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).
     
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