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Featured Why God's Purpose for the Tribulation excludes the Church

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Do you think that no gentiles who do not fall for the scam and take the mark of the beast will come to faith in Messiah during this time? Especially with the 144,000 of 12 tribes of Israel testifying of Messiah and the angel that travels thru the atmosphere proclaiming the gospel? And what of those Jews who also come to faith that are not part of the 144,000, who are given special protection by God?

    Hosea 5:15-6:2 is the passage that Messiah was referencing in Matthew 23:39. Yeshua cannot return until national Israel calls for Him to return. It was national Israel that rejected Him, as many individual Jews trusted in Him. Those who accepted Yeshua at Pentacost were all Jewish. But Israel as a nation did not, and thus far has not. Until national Israel changes their mind and calls out for Him, he will not return.
     
  2. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Yes.

    I don't know what they are doing, they are only mentioned a couple of times. The angel that travels through the air does that in heaven.

    I'm aware of that and your right, the whole prophetic calendar pivots on the repentance of Israel as a nation. I think they repent after the abomination that causes desolation and as a result of what happens to the two witnesses. They flee and two thirds of them are killed, but that gives them 3 1/2 years to reconsider.
     
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that "anti"-Christ can simply mean anyone who is "against" the true Christ, as in any "opponent of the Messiah" (Strong's Greek Dictionary, Word #500: antichristos), as in anyone who denies Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or denies Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or denies Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) has been working since the 1st century AD (2 Thessalonians 2:7), animating many antichrists since that time (1 John 2:18; 2 John 1:7).

    And note nothing requires the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will ever claim to be the Messiah/Christ. For his antichrist denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him as a mortal-flesh human (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ. Instead, the non-mortal-flesh Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) could be the false Christ (that is, the "Lucifer" Christ, and not the "Jesus" Christ: 1 John 2:22) during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which will be in the latter half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    But none of this means there won't also be multiple, human false Christs who will arise during the Tribulation (Matthew 24:24), including one who will be an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Christ/Messiah. For shortly after the start of the Tribulation, the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a) in Israel, promising this false Messiah and his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers they can keep for at least seven years (Daniel 9:27a) a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

    Regarding the 12th Imam, he's also called the Mahdi.

    Regarding the Muslim "Mahdi", during the Antichrist's rise to power, before he declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36) and begins his 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), if he greatly increases the military and political power of the Arab world, which is mostly Muslim, many Muslims could declare him to be the Mahdi. They could do this even though he won't fulfill most of the detailed Muslim prophecies regarding the Mahdi. For the Muslim prophecies regarding the Mahdi aren't Biblical, and so nothing requires they will all be fulfilled. Also, the Antichrist could reject the solely-human title of the "Mahdi", in his own mind, as being far beneath what he sees as his divinity. And before he declares himself God, if he rejects the title of "Mahdi" publicly, he could pretend to do so for humble reasons, saying something like: "Oh, no, I am not the great Mahdi, but a humble peacemaker who wants the best for all Arabs and for all mankind, no matter what religion they may presently follow", etc.

    Also, the first person whom Muslims will declare to be the Mahdi may not even be the Antichrist. For before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45), an Iraqi Baathist General could lead an all-out war against Israel which will result in its total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"). This Iraqi Baathist General could then be hailed by Muslims worldwide as the Mahdi. But he will subsequently suffer a defeat (perhaps in Algeria), and then he will mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:18-19). So the Muslims could say they were mistaken in thinking he was the Mahdi.

    Similarly, years later, when the Antichrist claims to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and starts forcing the world to worship him (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9) and an image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), if many Muslims had said he was the Mahdi, some of them could say they were mistaken. Also, these actions by the Antichrist will result in a fatwa, a death sentence, being issued against him by radical Muslim clerics, which fatwa Islamic terrorists could then try to carry out by waging all-out jihad ("holy war") against the Antichrist. For they hold most strongly to Islam's tenets that no man can be God, that Lucifer/Satan is evil, and that no image can be worshipped. But the terrorist part of Islam (just as even the moderate part of Islam, and just as even public, Biblical Christianity) will eventually be wiped out during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, when everyone (not in hiding) will be forced to either convert to the Antichrist's religion of Gnostic Luciferianism or be killed (Revelation 13:4-18; 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

    Also, even though Jews today don't go around killing people for religious reasons, by the time the Antichrist declares himself God, some ultra-Orthodox Jews, led by a miracle-working false "Messiah", might also feel inspired to try to kill the Antichrist for blasphemy, especially when he will commit it (at least one time) even within their own (future) temple (2 Thessalonians 2:4) in Jerusalem, and he will defile that temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in every other religion's holiest shrine and declare himself God there as well. For example, he could sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc. This could result in the radical adherents of every religion becoming so enraged at the Antichrist they will all attempt to assassinate him. But they will all fail to defeat him, for he won't be defeated until he's cast alive into the lake of fire at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8-9, Revelation 19:20).
     
  4. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    "Vicarius Filii Dei", a title of the pope, only equals 666 when by mistake people use the Roman-numeral method of counting the number of a name:

    V = 5
    I = 1
    C = 100
    A
    R
    I = 1
    U = 5 (because under this method U is the same as V)
    S

    F
    I = 1
    L = 50
    I = 1
    I = 1

    D = 500
    E
    I = 1

    Total = 666

    This doesn't mean the pope is the Antichrist. It just means the Roman-numeral method gives false positives. For example:

    E
    L = 50
    L = 50
    E
    N

    G
    O
    U = 5
    L = 50
    D = 500

    W = 10 (because W = double U = UU = VV)
    H
    I = 1
    T
    E

    Total = 666

    This doesn't mean the most important early leader of the SDA view is the Antichrist. It just means the SDA view (or any other view) shouldn't employ the Roman-numeral method of counting the number of a name, instead of the Bible's own method, which is gematria.

    --

    That is, the 666 in Revelation 13:17c-18 refers to the number six hundred and sixty-six, the "number of the name" of the individual man who is the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"). And the number of a name (Revelation 13:17c-18, Revelation 15:2) is determined by employing the ancient method of gematria, by which numerical values are assigned to the letters of any alphabet as follows: The first nine letters are 1 through 9, the next nine letters are 10 through 90 (counting by tens), and the rest of the letters are 100, 200, 300, etc., to the end of the alphabet. In Revelation 13:18, the "counting", the adding up, of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name should be done in the same way the gematrial numerical values of the three Greek letters (Chi, Xi, and Stigma) at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus) are added up to arrive at the number six hundred and sixty-six.

    The numerical values of the letters of the ancient Greek alphabet (including the three obsolete letters of Stigma, Qoppa, and Sampi) were as follows: Alpha = 1, Beta = 2, Gamma = 3, Delta = 4, Epsilon = 5, Stigma = 6, Zeta = 7, Eta = 8, Theta = 9, Iota = 10, Kappa = 20, Lambda = 30, Mu = 40, Nu = 50, Xi = 60, Omikron = 70, Pi = 80, Qoppa = 90, Rho = 100, Sigma = 200, Tau = 300, Upsilon = 400, Phi = 500, Chi = 600, Psi = 700, Omega = 800, Sampi = 900.

    Just as the numerical values of Chi, Xi, and Stigma at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the Textus Receptus) add up to 666, so the numerical values of the letters in the future Antichrist's name will add up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). The apostle John used the Greek alphabet because it was the most common one used by Christians when the book of Revelation was written. Today, the English alphabet is the most common one used by Christians, insofar as English is the current lingua franca of the world. So the future Antichrist's name will most likely add up to 666 in the English alphabet. The purpose of Revelation 13:17c-18 is to facilitate for Christians, not to make difficult for them, the identification of a certain man as possibly being the Antichrist. If the letters in his name had to be transliterated into the Greek alphabet, this would vitiate this purpose, for almost all Christians today wouldn't know how to properly perform this transliteration, and so different Christians would come up with different transliterations, and so would come up with different gematrial numbers for the name of the man in question.

    If Christians think someone is the Antichrist, they need to check and make sure his name adds up to 666 in gematria (Revelation 13:17c-18). If it doesn't, then he isn't the Antichrist. If it does, then he could be, and they need to be especially wary of him and not be taken in by any deceptive charisma, intelligence or amazing deeds he might display. But even if someone's name does add up to 666, this doesn't mean he's definitely the Antichrist. For just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666. The Antichrist also has to come from a country the territory of which used to be part of one of the four Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). These kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and have a name like (for example) "Nabil Abdullah Falakal al-Hakim", which adds up to 666.

    But if a man from the Middle East has a name which adds up to 666, even this doesn't assure he's the Antichrist. For he also has to sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). Once he does that, there won't be any more room for doubt over whether or not he's the Antichrist. His identity will have been definitely revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4).

    The gematrial numerical values of the letters of the English alphabet are: A=1, B=2, C=3, D=4, E=5, F=6, G=7, H=8, I=9, J=10, K=20, L=30, M=40, N=50, O=60, P=70, Q=80, R=90, S=100, T=200, U=300, V=400, W=500, X=600, Y=700, Z=800. The way the gematrial number of a name is "counted" (Revelation 13:17c-18), is added up, is simply by adding up the gematrial numerical values of all the letters in that name. So, for example, the number of the name "John Mark Smith" is 636, because: J=10, O=60, H=8, N=50, M=40, A=1, R=90, K=20, S=100, M=40, I=9, T=200, H=8. Total = 636. The future Antichrist's name will add up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18).
     
  5. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    They are now.

    For all obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the Church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19 and Ephesians 4:9 show there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus Christ into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the Gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

    Also, 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show at Jesus' Second Coming the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the third heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all Christians who will survive the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth, those who will still be "alive and remain", will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be in the clouds above Jerusalem, before He descends to set His feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

    It's because of this Second-Coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the Church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the Church will already be with Jesus when He subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4). Jesus and the obedient part of the Church will then physically reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
     
  6. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding the 144,000, note they will be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so will be part of the Church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the Church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could already be part of the Church. For they will be alive on the earth, and will already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the first stage of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the Tribulation along with the rest of the Church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Also, the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the Church. For all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

    Also, note that the tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they're from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).
     
  7. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    ELLEN GOULD WHITE is not a Roman/Latin name or title.

    VICARIVS FILII DEI is.
    It is the only 666 which is easily visually confirmed without knowledge of esoteric gematria.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Church and the 144,000

    Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

    2 Corinthians 1:21-22

    Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

    Ephesians 1:13

    In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    Ephesians 4:30

    Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


    The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes, describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

    Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)

    Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)

    Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)

    Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)

    Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)

    Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)

    Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)

    Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)

    Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)

    Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)

    Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)

    Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)


    Also of significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.


    Is 144,000 literal or symbolic? While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful, e.g. 1 Kings 19:18. Their number is thus depicted as 12, symbolizing the faithful saints within the 12 tribes; times 12, a scriptural symbol of completeness; times 1000, which when used symbolically denotes a large quantity (Psalms 50:10; 91:7; 2 Peter 3:8).


    Revelation 14 continues the descriptions of the 144,000, further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile, consistent with other scripture:


    Galatians 3:28

    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


    Ephesians 2:14

    For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…


    Additional numerical symbolism relating to the Church can be found in the 12 apostles representing saints of the NT era.


    No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  9. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Ultimately yes, as all wait for the resurrection of the body and to be at home with the lord.
    John was the greatest born of the flesh, but that is lesser than the least born of the spirit.

    John died before the kingdom of God and the new covenant was ushered in. He did not get to experience the kingdom on earth like we do. Ultimately though, The OT saints are made perfect together (not separate) with the body of Christ: Hebrews 11:39
     
  10. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    If the church and Israel can only have salvation through the same root, how are these groups separate? One branch from a tree is not a different plant from another branch on the tree if they both come from the same root.
     
  11. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The reference in Rom.11:17 is to God's ELECT. In the case of Israel, though they are God's elect [see verse 1], they DO NOT have their salvation. Because they rejected Jesus as their Messiah. So those branches are broken off of the ROOT/God's elect. While the Church are God's elect, through their belief in Jesus, as their Lord and Savior, and are grafted into the ROOT/God's elect.

    According to Zech.12:10, Israel will be grafted back into the ROOT/God's elect, after believing/receiving Jesus as their Messiah, when He returns in His second advent.

    Hope this helps.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Rom 11:1  I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 
    Rom 11:2  God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 
    Rom 11:3  "LORD, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS AND TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY SEEK MY LIFE"? 
    Rom 11:4  But what does the divine response say to him? "I HAVE RESERVED FOR MYSELF SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." 
    Rom 11:5  Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 


    Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 

    Only "some" of the Israelites were broken off of the tree in the verse above.

    Throughout Romans 11 Paul deals with two different groups of Israelites, one faithful and one not.
    We see this in Romans 11:1-5.


    Paul ends the chapter in the same way with two different groups of "they" in Romans 11:28. One group of "they" rejected Christ and are enemies of the Gospel. There is another group of "they" who are the "election" who accept Christ.

    Your claim that all of Israel rejected the Messiah falls apart in Romans 11:5.

    .
     
  13. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rom.11 is about the branches that are grafted in of God's elect, based upon the belief in God by Israelis and new believers in Jesus Christ, that make up the body of Christ, His Church. Verse 17 pertaining to branches being broken off and those that were grafted in, is documented in my post #171.

    All the branches grafted into the Olive tree belong to the Church, NOT to Israel! The Church IS NOT Israel, or any part of Israel. Israel are the branches that have been broken off, due to the rejection of Jesus as their Messiah. While those that have been grafted in are the Church, consisting of Jews and Gentiles, as recorded in 1 Cor.12"12-13. Predominantly Gentile by massive numbers

    As I previously addressed, all of Israel will go through the tribulation. When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, all of Israel will be saved, after the second advent of Jesus, as recorded in Rom.11:25-26 and Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    And that is why Paul proclaimed that he is an Israelite in Romans 11:1???

    Based on your logic, Paul has proclaimed himself to be one who rejected Christ.


    Rom 11:1  I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 


    Paul did not say... "I was an Israelite". Instead, he said "I am an Israelite"...


    And that is why Paul reviewed the story of the two groups of Israelites during the time of Elijah???

    Just as you attempt to ignore the word "Israel" in Acts chapter 2, and just as you attempt to ignore the word "Israel" in Hebrews 8:6-13, now you are attempting to ignore the word "Israel" in Romans chapter 11.

    The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is clearly a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of faithful Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.

    The only path to salvation for those broken off of the Olive Tree is to be grafted back into the tree, through faith in Christ.

    There is no Plan B.

    .
     
  15. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Right, so there are 2 separate groups: those who believe and those who don't. if ethnic Israel comes to believe in Christ, they will be grafted back in with all other believers. There are not 2 paths to salvation, only 1
     
  16. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That Paul was an Israelie, like the 3,000 Peter brought to the Lord, in Acts 2, they ALL BELONG TO THE BODY OF CHRIST, HIS CHURCH!

    There is no way under the sun you are ever going to change that fact!

    The Church IS NOT Israel, and NEVER will be, nor can you ever prove such a heresy from the Scriptures!


    Quasar92
     
  17. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That's right, for physical protection (e.g. Revelation 9:4).

    Also, it should be pointed out that while at the future point in time of Revelation 7:2-4, only the 144,000 male-virgins part of the Church (Revelation 14:1,4) will be sealed for physical protection, all obedient people in the Church will still be spiritually protected during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). Also, before Revelation 7:2-4 happens, the 144,000, along with some others, will be physically protected so they will survive the Tribulation's first stage (in Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). It's near the end of this first stage that the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the Tribulation's seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first six trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the Tribulation's second stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of God's Holy Spirit which they and all others in the Church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this second stage (Revelation 9:4).

    After this second stage, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the Church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the Tribulation's third stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

    The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the future Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while two other parts of the Church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the Church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14-16); and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the Church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    After the future Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These seven vials (Revelation 16) will be the Tribulation's fourth and final stage. Because the Church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the Church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus Christ's Second Coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the Church will survive the entire future Tribulation on the earth. They're those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' Second Coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.
     
  18. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that no significance should be read into the fact the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16 but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1 to 15. The reason the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters refer to seven, literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

    The Church in the general sense will definitely be in the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For Christians will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view admits Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the Church without using the specific word "church", so it should be able to admit Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the Church without using the specific word "church".
     
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    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that it isn't.

    For the 10 virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows the marriage of the Church to Jesus Christ won't occur until His Second Coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just as Revelation 19:7 shows the marriage won't occur until after the future Tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of Christians, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the Church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the Church to Jesus at His Second Coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

    The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the Church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the Church at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the Church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus Himself at His Second Coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

    Also, regarding the 10 virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the future Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says: "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the Church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month and day) of Jesus Christ's Second Coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel.
    The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew 1:1.
    On the road to Emmaus He revealed the fact that the whole Old Testament is about Him.


    The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. You cannot separate Israel and the Church in Act 2:36, Hebrews 8:6-13, and Romans 11:1-5. Removing the word "Israel" from those passages would be "heresy", because it would be changing God's Word.



    If you think the fulfillment of the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah by Christ (Matthew 26:28) is "heresy", then you have revealed the truth about the Two Peoples of God doctrine, brought to America by John Darby, about the time of the Civil War.


     
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