Why faith alone?

[Wordkeeper]

he believed...was what made him righteous in God's eyes. Not his works. His works demonstrated where his faith was -TOTALLY trusting God.

No. Loyalty is the bank account. Belief gets you a plus count. Works gets you a plus count.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have heard that those who believe in faith alone and who think this leads to works and holy living also say that they can sin and still be saved on some level, too.

Personally, if I did not have to worry about my salvation anymore and it was all just about having a belief on Jesus to be saved, I would just turn around and act like nothing has ever happened and salvation would be more like some kind of dream or mirage. But because there are dire consequences to my soul in not loving God and in not loving others, I press on in my faith.

Now, when I say I press on in my faith, I am talking about cooperating with Jesus (Who is the source of my salvation). Jesus ultimately saves. So any good work done in my life is the Lord working through me by my surrendering to His will.

While a believer is born again and has a new nature, man also has a free will to choose either good or evil. So we are not slaves to doing God's will 100% or even 50% with any known certainty. We have to choose every day to serve the Lord our God. We are not be forced against our will to be saved or anything.


...

 

[BobRyan]

Sola fide is the Latin shorthand for the Protestant claim that we are justified by faith alone. In this thread I want to hear why Protestants think we are justified by faith alone, but I am not interested in scriptural justifications. ...

I'm just not interested in proof texts for the doctrine of sola fide itself.

Curious - what is the reason for no interest in the Bible support for a given doctrine?

James 2 says " 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." - that is the only place in all of scripture where you can find the precise phrase "by faith alone".

However in Romans 3 you find "justified by faith apart from the works of the LAW" Romans 3:28.

James 2 is speaking of future legal justification in the same way that we see Romans 2:13-16 speaking of it "it is not the hearers of the Law that are just before God - but the doers of the Law are justified... on the day when according to my Gospel God will JUDGE". It is justification in the context of external facts in that future day of judgment "by their fruits you shall know them" Matt 7.

So I assume you are talking about the Romans 3:28 case and not James 2.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

No. Loyalty is the bank account. Belief gets you a plus count. Works gets you a plus count.

It's breathtaking to see someone actually write those words. To think that someone could deliberately place his fingers on the keys of a keyboard and form those words. . .

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

No. Loyalty is the bank account. Belief gets you a plus count. Works gets you a plus count.

Do you see faith and works as two separate things?

 

[Wordkeeper]

Do you see faith and works as two separate things?

Faith is loyalty mistranslated today as belief. It consists of pledging and obeying. Pledging is enough to put you in favour (God's good graces) with God. The Jews insistence on circumcision was blocked by the example Paul gave of Abraham. Faith alone. Don't use that as an example of support for the doctrine of solar fide. Obeying is what completes the pledge.


James 2:20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD,AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.

 

[Wordkeeper]

It's breathtaking to see someone actually write those words. To think that someone could deliberately place his fingers on the keys of a keyboard, and form those words. . .

It's breathtaking to see someone reduce all the work Paul did to complete his salvation to a nullity, so casually. Without offering Scriptural support. Not even half a verse.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Faith is loyalty mistranslated today as belief. It consists of pledging and obeying. Pledging is enough to put you in favour (God's good graces) with God. The Jews insistence on circumcision was blocked by the example Paul gave of Abraham. Faith alone. Don't use that as an example of support for the doctrine of solar fide. Obeying is what completes the pledge.


James 2:22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD,AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.

It is all about perception of where we are at in the process taking place within.

Our circumcision (in the New Covenant through Christ) is of the heart...flesh removed and walking in the spirit, transformed a new creation in Christ that comes by faith. Faith is not just saying we believe, for faith is most certainly an action word. And it is faith that spurs us on doing the works that are consistent with genuine faith, seeking God's way and walking in it by the power of the Holy Spirit. No brownie points involved. Just peace, joy and LOVE from The Father, being IN Christ.

The reward of our faith, becoming ONE in Christ.

The Greek word 'logizomai' in the bible you have used has been translated 'reckoned'. In the King James Version it has been translated as "imputed".

Faith, from the Greek "pistis" means faith, belief, firm persuasion, 2 Corinthians 5:7, Hebrews 11:1; assurance, firm conviction, Romans 14:23; ground of belief, guarantee, assurance, Acts 17:31; faithfulness, truthfulness, Romans 3:3

 

[St_Worm2]

It's breathtaking to see someone reduce all the work Paul did to complete his salvation to a nullity, so casually. Without offering Scriptural support. Not even half a verse.

I'll add some verses into the mix (though I am well aware of the fact that you already know them ).

Romans 4
5 To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Ephesians 2
8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Titus 3
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.​

You may want to consider your choice of words pretty carefully where these verses are concerned. This is GT after all, not the CT board (although going too far beyond the pale of Christian orthodoxy on that board is frowned upon as well).

I'm pretty sure that a full-blown discussion of Pelagianism was not what Zippy had in mind when he wrote the OP, but only he can answer that one.

Yours and His,
David

"If it is by grace, then it cannot be based on works;
if it were, grace would no longer be grace"
Romans 11:6​

 

[Wordkeeper]

It is all about perception of where we are at in the process taking place within.

Our circumcision (in the New Covenant through Christ) is of the heart...flesh removed and walking in the spirit, transformed a new creation in Christ that comes by faith. Faith is not just saying we believe, for faith is most certainly an action word. And it is faith that spurs us on doing the works that are consistent with genuine faith, seeking God's way and walking in it by the power of the Holy Spirit. No brownie points involved. Just peace, joy and LOVE from The Father, being IN Christ.

The reward of our faith, becoming ONE in Christ.

The Greek word 'logizomai' in the bible you have used has been translated 'reckoned'. In the King James Version it has been translated as "imputed".

Faith, from the Greek "pistis" means faith, belief, firm persuasion, 2 Corinthians 5:7, Hebrews 11:1; assurance, firm conviction, Romans 14:23; ground of belief, guarantee, assurance, Acts 17:31; faithfulness, truthfulness, Romans 3:3

Quote
"A closer look: imputed righteousness versus reckoned righteous".
....................

"Luther himself does not always go quite this far. He is prepared to say that only by the accrediting of a merciful God and by faith in his word do we become just. He also is prepared to say that all of our good is in fact outside ourselves and located in Christ. But, as scholars have pointed out, Luther does not usually use the language of imputation."

..….…..….....…..........…....

"The crediting language ("it was reckoned") is not forensic language but commercial or bookkeeping language... In early Judaism there was the belief in the good and evil deeds of a person being recorded in ledgers... It is a mistake to simply read Paul's righteousness language through a forensic filter, not least because Paul believes that God requires of his people that, once saved, they actually lead righteous lives. Paul would likely be appalled by the notion that he is talking about some sort of legal fiction, including the idea that Christ is righteous in the believer's place in such a way that believers are not required to be righteous. Even worse would be the notion that when God looks at believers, he simply sees Christ's righteousness and reckons it to their accounts, instead of believers having to live holy lives."

http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.in/2008/08/romanswitherington-4.html?m=1




The blogger is referring to a book by Ben Witherington in which it is pointed out:

The Latin Vulgate translates Romans 4 as Abraham believed God and it was reckoned (reputatum) as righteousness.

Jewish scholars viewed the recording of individual sin and righteousness as an accounting model. In other words, in the text, righteousness was actually credited to Abraham. The exchange is Abraham faith becoming Abraham's righteousness, just as your deposited cheque becomes your credit amount in your bank account.

Unfortunately, Erasmus used imputatum instead of reputatum for his translation choice in his famous Greek New Testament of 1516.

So reckoned, counted became 'linked'.

But Luther never taught the idea of imputed righteousness. It was Melanchthon who did. He used Erasmus' Greek New Testament and the idea became lodged in Reformed teaching, even getting imported into to other area of Pauline teaching, as in

2 Corinthians 5:21God made him who had no sin to be sinb for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

where the Reformers taught that our sin is imputed to Christ, and His righteousness imputed to us: the imputation "exchange".

Unfortunately, hamartia is an often used hebraism for "sin offering". DO we really want to go there?

The Indelible Image : Theological and Ethical Thoughts

Ben Witherington

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=rlu12_cDcV0C&pg=PA226&lpg=PA226&dq=witherington+imputatum+erasmus&source=bl&ots=37Er98Sp2-&sig=u9gOgaXJD4w_WviBiBX8tUBfQkc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZ3N37lbvPAhUXSY8KHeFSBssQ6AEIHjAB

 

[Wordkeeper]

I'll add some verses into the mix (though I am well aware of the fact that you already know them

).


Romans 4
5 To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Very important consideration: Where was this argument used? (What was the context, the background?).

You can use this verse to combat those who teach circumcision is required for baptism (the problem facing Paul), but not against those who teach works are required, makes shows of loyalty perfect, fulfilled:


Romans 4
10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!

James 2
20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is uselessd ? 21Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”eand he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Ephesians 2
8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Very important consideration: Where was this argument used? (What was the context, the background?).

You can use this verse to combat those who teach Gentiles were included into baptism because they had become more righteous than Israel (the problem facing Paul), but not against those who teach works are required, makes shows of loyalty perfect, fulfilled:


James 2
20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is uselessd ? 21Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”eand he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.


Quote
The problem with that exegesis of the verse is that this is a neuter pronoun and faith is a feminine noun. While a pronoun's case is determined by its function in the sentence, it gender and number are determined by its antecedent. Therefore, this cannot be referring back to faith. But grace also is feminine, so it cannot be the antecedent of τοῦτο. So what is?

If you looks backwards for an antecedent, you will look in vain. There are neuter nouns, but they make no sense as an antecedent.

The answer is to know a little Greek! When Greek wants to refer back to a general though, perhaps a phrase, the pronoun can be in the neuter. This is not of yourselves does not refer specifically to πίστεως but rather to the entire salvific process, of which faith obviously is a part. It is the entire salvific process that is God's gracious gift and is not part of our own doing. It is a gift.

Antecedents and Faith (Eph 2:8-9) | billmounce.com


Paul could have written:

Ephesians 2
8 By favor you have been saved through mental assent; not by desert (opposite of favor) through labor (opposite of mental assent) and even that (salvation by grace through faith) is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not because your performance was better than Israel, boasting;


In fact, he does so, in the next verse:

9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Titus 3
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

You can use this verse to combat those who teach Gentiles were included into baptism because they had become more righteous than Israel (the problem facing Paul), but not against those who teach works are required, makes shows of loyalty perfect, fulfilled:

James 2
20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is uselessd ? 21Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”eand he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

You may want to consider your choice of words pretty carefully where these verses are concerned. This is GT after all, not the CT board (although going too far beyond the pale of Christian orthodoxy on that board is frowned upon as well).

I'm pretty sure that a full-blown discussion of Pelagianism was not what Zippy had in mind when he wrote the OP, but only he can answer that one.

Yours and His,

David

"If it is by grace, then it cannot be based on works;

if it were, grace would no longer be grace"

Romans 11:6

Acts 4:18Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John replied, “Which is right in God’s eyes: to listen to you, or to him? You be the judges! 20As for us, we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Quote
"A closer look: imputed righteousness versus reckoned righteous".
....................

"Luther himself does not always go quite this far. He is prepared to say that only by the accrediting of a merciful God and by faith in his word do we become just. He also is prepared to say that all of our good is in fact outside ourselves and located in Christ. But, as scholars have pointed out, Luther does not usually use the language of imputation."

..….…..….....…..........…....

"The crediting language ("it was reckoned") is not forensic language but commercial or bookkeeping language... In early Judaism there was the belief in the good and evil deeds of a person being recorded in ledgers... It is a mistake to simply read Paul's righteousness language through a forensic filter, not least because Paul believes that God requires of his people that, once saved, they actually lead righteous lives. Paul would likely be appalled by the notion that he is talking about some sort of legal fiction, including the idea that Christ is righteous in the believer's place in such a way that believers are not required to be righteous. Even worse would be the notion that when God looks at believers, he simply sees Christ's righteousness and reckons it to their accounts, instead of believers having to live holy lives."

http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.in/2008/08/romanswitherington-4.html?m=1




The blogger is referring to a book by Ben Witherington in which it is pointed out:

The Latin Vulgate translates Romans 4 as Abraham believed God and it was reckoned (reputatum) as righteousness.

Jewish scholars viewed the recording of individual sin and righteousness as an accounting model. In other words, in the text, righteousness was actually credited to Abraham. The exchange is Abraham faith becoming Abraham's righteousness, just as your deposited cheque becomes your credit amount in your bank account.

Unfortunately, Erasmus used imputatum instead of reputatum for his translation choice in his famous Greek New Testament of 1516.

So reckoned, counted became 'linked'.

But Luther never taught the idea of imputed righteousness. It was Melanchthon who did. He used Erasmus' Greek New Testament and the idea became lodged in Reformed teaching, even getting imported into to other area of Pauline teaching, as in

2 Corinthians 5:21God made him who had no sin to be sinb for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

where the Reformers taught that our sin is imputed to Christ, and His righteousness imputed to us: the imputation "exchange".

Unfortunately, hamartia is an often used hebraism for "sin offering". DO we really want to go there?

The Indelible Image : Theological and Ethical Thoughts

Ben Witherington

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=rlu12_cDcV0C&pg=PA226&lpg=PA226&dq=witherington+imputatum+erasmus&source=bl&ots=37Er98Sp2-&sig=u9gOgaXJD4w_WviBiBX8tUBfQkc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZ3N37lbvPAhUXSY8KHeFSBssQ6AEIHjAB

The Spirit of Truth is my teacher, as He is for each of us who believe "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself;"

Abraham did not stagger in unbelief (he believed the promises of God) for he had a faith that was made strong...didn't doubt God was God...fully persuaded that what HE promised HE was able to do...that is faith. That kind of faith is what counts us as righteous. That is what counted Abraham as righteous.

It is that kind of faith that causes us to know that the same spirit that rose Jesus' body from the grave is giving (new) Life to us (IF we believe it can be so because all things are possible with God, though impossible for man), removing that heart of flesh and makes us to walk by HIS spirit in that newness of Life. Transformed, that our works of faith need not to be thought about and strived for because HIS spirit lives and causes it to be so...IF IF IF we believe it is possible because HE is God.

Faith brings Truth revealed and a Life hidden in Christ..."no longer I that live, but Christ in me..."

Faith strengthend (increased by God's grace because we see the bigger picture)...faith grows when we believe HE is the great I AM and that all things work together for our good. HE has grown my faith because I believed and KNOW He is God of all and HE causes all things to be possible in attaining the promises of God. HE has transformed my heart of flesh and caused me to know Him, intimately and to Trust HIM in every thing with all my heart, mind body and soul/life. That is what counts us as righteous...we are 'fully persuaded that what HE hat promised', not any works done out of the flesh.

Abraham took no thought (did not stagger in unbelief) just acted because of his faith...not because he thought it would fill up his 'bank' of righteous deeds. Thought has to do with the mind and does not come from faith for what the flesh thinks and what God desires of us are contrary to each other.

Would you take your son and attempt to sacrifice him on an altar just to get brownie points with God? Or would it have to be something God desired and you believed Him? This example given in scripture shows the difference between faith and works, though faith without works is dead. Faith causes 'different' works than the mind thinks...and that is the difference between flesh and spirit...our actions that come because of faith, not in the reverse.

Romans 4:20-25 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
20 and at the promise of God did not stagger in unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, having given glory to God,

21 and having been fully persuaded that what He hath promised He is able also to do:

22 wherefore also it was reckoned to him to righteousness.

23 And it was not written on his account alone, that it was reckoned to him,

24 but also on ours, to whom it is about to be reckoned -- to us believing on Him who did raise up Jesus our Lord out of the dead,

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

James speaks to - works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation.

...else all who do good works and do not believe in God would receive HIS promises...which we know is contrary to what The Bible says. What gets us the promises of God? Faith/belief...which is the causation evidenced by the works of a regenerated heart...that knows God is God and trusts Him...and sinful nature dies. All else is unbelief. All the works in the world will not bring us into God's favour without faith...for faith results in a life of obedience to Christ...

 

[TheSeabass]

Do you see faith and works as two separate things?

Rom 5:1--------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James 2:24----works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies

Since there is just one way to be saved/justified, then faith must be a work. Christians are to have a faith like Abraham's and Abraham had a faith that "walked" (Romans 4:12) that "obeyed" (Hebrews 11:8), that "worked" (James 2:24)

John 6:27-------labour>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unto everlasting life
John 6:47-------believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hath everlasting life

Only one way to gain everlasting life, then believing must be a work (a labor).


Faith/believing is a work.

 

[TheSeabass]

James speaks to - works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation.

James 2:24------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves/justifies
John 3:16-------believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves/not perish
Rom 10:9 ------confession>>>>>>>>>>>>>salvation

Since there is just one way to be saved, then believing must be a work (see my last post above) and confession must also be an obedient work.

Romans 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

The obedient works of believing and confessing are UNTO salvation. One does not do these works because he ALREADY is saved. Therefore James speaks of obedient works (as Abraham's faith) that lead to his being justified. Abraham was not already justified BEFORE he did obedient works God gave him to do. James pin points Abraham's final justification when he offered Isaac (James 2:21 cf Genesis 22:12)

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

James 2:24------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves/justifies
John 3:16-------believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves/not perish
Rom 10:9 ------confession>>>>>>>>>>>>>salvation

Since there is just one way to be saved, then believing must be a work (see my last post above) and confession must also be an obedient work.

Romans 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

The obedient works of believing and confessing are UNTO salvation. One does not do these works because he ALREADY is saved. Therefore James speaks of obedient works (as Abraham's faith) that lead to his being justified. Abraham was not already justified BEFORE he did obedient works God gave him to do. James pin points Abraham's final justification when he offered Isaac (James 2:21 cf Genesis 22:12)

I was replying to the concept that there is such a thing as a 'bank's for works that tips the scale and presented as separate from Faith...
EDIT: righteous works are a result of faith as James says...

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

James 2:24------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves/justifies
John 3:16-------believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves/not perish
Rom 10:9 ------confession>>>>>>>>>>>>>salvation

Since there is just one way to be saved, then believing must be a work (see my last post above) and confession must also be an obedient work.

Romans 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

The obedient works of believing and confessing are UNTO salvation. One does not do these works because he ALREADY is saved. Therefore James speaks of obedient works (as Abraham's faith) that lead to his being justified. Abraham was not already justified BEFORE he did obedient works God gave him to do. James pin points Abraham's final justification when he offered Isaac (James 2:21 cf Genesis 22:12)

Yes believing is faith in action.

 

[TheSeabass]

The Latin Vulgate translates Romans 4 as Abraham believed God and it was reckoned (reputatum) as righteousness.

Those faithful OT characters as Abraham had righteousness credited to their account for they did not have the blood of Christ to completely cleanse away all their sins where they could stand before God totally and completely righteous. It was not until Christ shed His blood that His blood flowed backwards (Galatians 4:4-5; Hebrews 9:15) then Abraham's sins were all cleansed away and his righteousness perfected in Christ.

All faithful, obedient people who live before and after Christ's death are saved by the shed blood of Christ. Yet those OT characters saw that promise of salvation by the blood of Christ "afar off" (Hebrews 11:13). So even though they died before Christ shed His blood, as along as they went to their grave having an obedient faith, God would redeem them, forgive their sins when Christ blood was shed. Those OT characters could have forgiveness of sins while they were alive based on God's promise to forgive all sins when Christ did die...and God cannot lie so His promises are certain.

John's baptism was "for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4) yet John's baptism was BEFORE Christ shed His blood and the Hebrew writer says there is no remission without shedding of blood (Hebrews 9:22). So John's baptism must have remitted sins "in promise", those baptized with John's baptism, if they maintained a repentant life style unto death or until Christ died, then they had all their sins remitted just as Abraham.

So there is no imputation of righteousness in the sense that righteousness is transferred from one person (Christ) to another (sinner) while the sinner does nothing. Christ's obedience was perfect, therefore His righteousness is perfect. So when the sinner obediently obeys the gospel (Galatians 3:27) he is baptized into Christ, having "put on Christ". When one puts on a coat he then is in the coat. When one puts on Christ in baptism, he then is "IN CHRIST" and being in Christ he is covered by Christ's perfect righteousness and seen by God thru Christ's perfect righteousness.

 

[TheSeabass]

I was replying to the concept that there is such a thing as a 'bank's for works that tips the scale and presented as separate from Faith...
EDIT: righteous works are a result of faith as James says...

To say works are a result of faith is separating faith from works when faith is a work. So how can works result from faith when faith itself is a work? James does not separate faith from works.

 

[TheSeabass]

Yes believing is faith in action.

--Faith is action.
--Therefore one is not saved by faith only THEN does action.
--Faith/action comes BEFORE salvation.