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zippy2006

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No. This faith or trust isn't something we do; it is something given to us; a gift is not something one does, but something one is given...

Thanks for explaining that to me. Now I see what you are saying.

So we are justified by faith, and faith is something which is given to us. Yet some have faith and some do not. If I understand Lutheranism correctly, then grace is resistible and faith is a gift that can be refused. But if a gift can be refused, then it can be accepted, even if acceptance means only the decision not to resist. Indeed the difference between the elect and the reprobate is the difference between accepting and rejecting faith. But if we must accept faith (or grace), then this is something we do.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Thanks for explaining that to me. Now I see what you are saying.

So we are justified by faith, and faith is something which is given to us. Yet some have faith and some do not. If I understand Lutheranism correctly, then grace is resistible and faith is a gift that can be refused. But if a gift can be refused, then it can be accepted, even if acceptance means only the decision not to resist. Indeed the difference between the elect and the reprobate is the difference between accepting and rejecting faith. But if we must accept faith (or grace), then this is something we do.

In Lutheranism Grace is resistible, yes; but the reverse is not true. We would again note the infant here, what has the infant done? We would say nothing. She has been baptized, she is entirely passive here, a passive recipient of God's work and grace.

I did not receive faith through my willful decision; but in spite of it, God accomplishes it on His own and I am a passive recipient. Our "yes" to God is not causal, but caused; it is not the source of faith but the fruit of that faith. St. Paul says no one can say "Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit", without the Spirit alive in us through faith we could not confess Christ as our Lord, call Him our Savior, or any of these things.

The sinner can refuse God, but not accept God. Recall also the Apostle writing, "What then, are we [Jews] any better off? No, not at all; for we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: 'There is no one who is righteous, not even one; there is no one who has understanding, there is no one who seeks God.'" (Romans 3:9-11). Apart from the grace of God working through the Means to deliver to us faith by which to justify us and turn us toward God in Christ we are left helpless and powerless to the sin under which we are slaves.

We might look to Lazarus, dead men do not choose to rise, but rather Christ says, "Lazarus, get up!" and Lazarus does, not by his own will (for what will does a corpse have?); likewise the Apostle tells us that we are dead in our trespasses. We are corpses with no life in us, and no corpse can make itself get up and walk, it is commanded to arise and it happens, and this by the power of God, by His external word. Therefore what credit can the dead man give himself once aroused from his sepulcher? None.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Hey Ignatius, first off, you're EO, so Purgatory :scratch: What's up with that? ^_^

As for what Protestants believe about the faith, I think you may be getting a couple of things wrong ;)

For instance, we believe that "justification" is a wholly monergistic work of God that we, as spiritually "dead" men and women .. e.g. Ephesians 2:1-3 cf Romans 3:10-12, are incapable of participating in.

Sanctification (IOW, that which follows our justification and continues on to Glory), is a mighty work that God accomplishes in us .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:3, but now that we are alive in Christ spiritually, we are able to participate in our growth in Christlikeness alongside of God, though I don't believe I would go as far as my Catholic friends do and say that we "cooperate" in that growth. So it is, IOW, a synergistic work with God.

As for the living the Christian life (sanctification), of course we believe that God is helping us move farther and farther away from our sinful selves. That, in fact, is why He changed us and saved us, as well the principle thing that He saved us from (though being saved from God's wrath .. e.g. Romans 5:9, as well being saved from an eternity apart from Him in Hell .. e.g. Matthew 25:46, are certainly additional benefits :amen:).

We also wrestle with our sinful desires, just like you guys do, BECAUSE God changed us and gave us a new nature, and with it new desires (which first and foremost includes the 24/7 desire to both please and obey Him in this life).

So the Protestant life is hardly about 1) being saved and then 2) waiting to die to be made more like Christ. Rather, it is more than doubtful that such a person (one who "claims" to be a Christian but does not strive daily, moment by moment, in fact, to be more Christlike) ever became a Christian to begin with, no matter what they may have prayed at some moment in the past.

Yours and His,
David

Purgatory to me makes sense as an explanation for our need to be made Holy. not that I believe in a literal purgatory a place between heaven and hell (though the idea is attractive to me) but I feel it expresses best the Orthodox emphasis on becoming Holy, truly coming into our baptism and participating in Christ. This accords with what we see in the Orthodox tradition of our salvation being a process (I am saved and being saved), something that is worked out like in John Climacus' the Ladder. It's not something instantaneous, it is something we are working on in this life and even the next (before the resurrection). Orthodox and Catholics would seemingly have a similar understanding concerning the need for becoming Holy though how we explain it differs doctrinally. Protestantism, except maybe in Wesleyianism, doesn't have such an emphasis.

Now I have no objections to what you have said concerning justification and sanctification. Though any Orthodox might correct me if I speak incorrectly on this. You are right insofar as God is the one who has saved us, we have not saved ourselves. We cannot earn our place with god, that is precisely due to his judgement alone. But our holiness and who we are matters. What I find in Protestantism is that specific emphasis of relegating our salvation solely to the justification angle and sanctification being more of a by product of initial justification. Sanctification while wonderful, is not all that needed, it is not essential that we grow in holiness. That's where the real difference between ancient and reformed Christianity lies. So yes, you struggle as we all do, but that is not ultimately necessary in the end. To become a Saint is a nice bonus (in the traditional sense of the word) is a bonus to an already good deal.

Now if you disagree with me and say sanctification is necessary, that it matters to our salvation, how do you maintain a doctrine of Sola Side? Is faith alone enough or do we need more? Do we need love and holiness as well? Then in that case it is not truly faith alone, since faith alone is the act of believing and not doing anything ourselves or being anything ourselves to earn salvation.

Please correct me if I have misunderstood Sola Fide though. I do try to be fair as well as critical.
 
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zippy2006

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In Lutheranism Grace is resistible, yes; but the reverse is not true...

Fair enough. You would make a good Thomist. ;) (By that I'm not calling you a Scholastic, but merely noting how similar your understanding of grace and predestination is to Aquinas and the Dominican tradition.)
 
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jimmyjimmy

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The OP has failed to see the distinction between good works, and meritorious works. The latter is a myth. It doesn't pass the "boasting test". The former is the result of abiding in Christ.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Fair enough. You would make a good Thomist. ;) (By that I'm not calling you a Scholastic, but merely noting how similar your understanding of grace and predestination is to Aquinas and the Dominican tradition.)

I appreciate the compliment. :)

-CryptoLuthearn
 
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jimmyjimmy

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If anyone is interested, Dr. Sproul's excellent historical/theological series called, Justification by Faith Alone, is available for free, both as a recently made HD video broadcast on Amazon Prime, or you can listen to it on Ligonier's website beginning here: After Darkness Light by R.C. Sproul

In both cases I believe the individual lectures within the teaching series are short, about 23 minutes each.

Sproul is a far better choice than Piper on this subject, IMO.
 
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St_Worm2

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Purgatory to me makes sense as an explanation for our need to be made Holy. not that I believe in a literal purgatory a place between heaven and hell (though the idea is attractive to me) but I feel it expresses best the Orthodox emphasis on becoming Holy, truly coming into our baptism and participating in Christ. This accords with what we see in the Orthodox tradition of our salvation being a process (I am saved and being saved), something that is worked out like in John Climacus' the Ladder. It's not something instantaneous, it is something we are working on in this life and even the next (before the resurrection). Orthodox and Catholics would seemingly have a similar understanding concerning the need for becoming Holy though how we explain it differs doctrinally. Protestantism, except maybe in Wesleyianism, doesn't have such an emphasis.

Now I have no objections to what you have said concerning justification and sanctification. Though any Orthodox might correct me if I speak incorrectly on this. You are right insofar as God is the one who has saved us, we have not saved ourselves. We cannot earn our place with god, that is precisely due to his judgement alone. But our holiness and who we are matters. What I find in Protestantism is that specific emphasis of relegating our salvation solely to the justification angle and sanctification being more of a by product of initial justification. Sanctification while wonderful, is not all that needed, it is not essential that we grow in holiness. That's where the real difference between ancient and reformed Christianity lies. So yes, you struggle as we all do, but that is not ultimately necessary in the end. To become a Saint is a nice bonus (in the traditional sense of the word) is a bonus to an already good deal.

Now if you disagree with me and say sanctification is necessary, that it matters to our salvation, how do you maintain a doctrine of Sola Side? Is faith alone enough or do we need more? Do we need love and holiness as well? Then in that case it is not truly faith alone, since faith alone is the act of believing and not doing anything ourselves or being anything ourselves to earn salvation.

Please correct me if I have misunderstood Sola Fide though. I do try to be fair as well as critical.

Hi Ignatius, I think I need to gain a little better understanding of EO salvation before I comment.

To begin with, I'd like to figure out how important the Orthodox need to become more and more holy is to one's salvation. So, let's say someone has just come both to the Orthodox church and to faith in Christ, and they die the very next day, before they had the chance to do any good works or experience any growth in holiness? Do you guys believe that such a person is still saved, even though his/her salvation is based solely on faith alone?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

John 5
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
 
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Wordkeeper

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I am, once again having, trouble following/understanding what you're actually trying to say WK. I will attempt a response to your six points however. Here goes:

1. The demons believe Jesus is Lord and tremble because of it. There is much more to "saving" faith than the belief that Jesus is Lord (but that is part of it, of course).
If it is much more, it isn't faith alone.
2. How does "faith" result in "grace" or in "power"? What do you mean?
Quote
As far as faith being unimportant, nothing could be further from the truth, because it's by the exercise of our faith that we believe/trust/know that He will save us in the gracious manner He promised us He would.


The above excerpt seems to say that works prove the presence of grace, a symptom of salvation.


You said good works indicate that you are saved. Isn't the gift the gift of sanctification, an enablement of the ability to do good works, aka GRACE? How do you define grace? And why do you club believe/trust/know together when they are not the same. That's the reason for confusion.
3. I'll comment after I see your answer to #2.
4. Who told you that "works" are a sign of inherent righteousness?
Not me. Read it again.

5. Once again a truly bizarre way of putting things, but ok, at least for now.
6. "We struggled with good works before"? Before "what"?

Before baptism.
 
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Wordkeeper

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What is so often missed is that the son of promise is from Sarah (grace) while the son(s) of Abraham are from (faith)
I don't think anyone is contesting that faith is exhibited in living. Inwardly a circumcised heart is not as obvious. But it is the fruit from God's work within. That's what will remain.
If you say you are loyal, how is that loyalty manifested? If it isn't manifested, how do we know it exists?

And if someone accuses you of not loving mozzarella and you reply shocked that you DO love mozzarella and when offered mozzarella you shrink back, well then, now both you and your accuser know for sure you DON'T love mozzarella.

You just haven't meta noia-ED, change mind-ED. Youre not born again. You are still your old self.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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If you say you are loyal, how is that loyalty manifested? If it isn't manifested, how do we know it exists?

And if someone accuses you of not loving mozzarella and you reply shocked that you DO love mozzarella and when offered mozzarella you shrink back, well then, now both you and your accuser know for sure you DON'T love mozzarella.

You just haven't meta noia-ED, change mind-ED. Youre not born again. You are still your old self.
Ephesians 6:
14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth fastened around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness arrayed, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness of the gospel of peace.…

Isaiah 11:5
Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, And faithfulness the belt about His waist.

Luke 12:35
Be dressed for service and keep your lamps burning.

Romans 13:12
The night is nearly over; the day has drawn near. So let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
 
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Wordkeeper

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In short, good works are just a product of believer's faith, not the other way around. There are a lot of non-believers outside, they did a good works too (e.g. non-religious charity organization), except that wasn't a product of beliver's faith.

And no, believer's faith is by NO MEAN you can sin all you want.

I keep posting that faith is loyalty, not mental assent that Jesus is Lord.

Abraham's work was not righteous, he was about to go ahead with human sacrifice.

However, it was loyal.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Hi again WK, ah yes, I forgot about the interesting ways you tend to put things, but "symptom" will do I suppose ;)

Also, please explain/define what you believe God's "grace" is, particularly as it relates to God's work in saving us.

Some denominations teach that grace is the power of the Holy Spirit, enabling forgiveness, justification and sanctification, the dispensing mandate of which they claim is vested in the church. So you could pay money and buy grace, forgiveness in advance for some sin you're about to commit!

I'm having trouble figuring out what you mean in your last sentence above, so I am not sure how to reply. Please elaborate. I will say this much however, saving faith is a gift from God, but believing (after receiving the gift of faith) is something that 'we' do.

You seem to be saying that good works prove that you have received grace. Please correct me if that's not what you meant here:
Quote
As far as faith being unimportant, nothing could be further from the truth, because it's by the exercise of our faith that we believe/trust/know that He will save us in the gracious manner He promised us He would.


p.s. - in regards to salvation, what do you mean by "real loyalty"?

If someone accused you of hating Bologna and you protested you had changed, now loved Bologna, was loyal to Bologna, but when offered Bologna you shrank back, then, then, everybody, including yourself, would know that you still HATED Bologna. In other words, you haven't re-pented, meta noia-ed, change mind-ed, been born again. You are still your old Bologna hating self, still disloyal to Bologna.
 
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Wordkeeper

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The OP has failed to see the distinction between good works, and meritorious works. The latter is a myth. It doesn't pass the "boasting test". The former is the result of abiding in Christ.

Good grief, the term " boasting", "claiming" was used only to explain that circumcision, effort, was not required to get into the community known as the People of God, Abraham being the prototype, the father of all those in the future who would be justified by faith.


As for meritorious work, meritorious effort, God reckoned, an accounting term, Abraham's giving of Isaac as a credit entry, adding to, enriching his account balance.
 
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Wordkeeper

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It is promised that IN Christ, we will be overcomers. Those are the 'works' (overcoming) that are the clues to reception of grace. Anything less is striving on our 'own' (perceiving of) Truth...which really isn't truth, but a lie.

What do we overcome?

How do we know we overcome through being in Christ and not by self effort?
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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Sola fide is the Latin shorthand for the Protestant claim that we are justified by faith alone. In this thread I want to hear why Protestants think we are justified by faith alone, but I am not interested in scriptural justifications. You might try to answer this question, "Why did God enact the principle of justification by faith alone?" What is the reason for such a doctrine? Why might God have given it to us? How does it help you in your faith? What truths does it safeguard, etc.?

To cite an example, John Piper gives some rationale for sola fide in [snip]. One of his basic reasons is this: sola fide gives us an assurance and certainty that pave the way for good works. Without sola fide we would not produce any fruits, any good works.

If you like, you can give scriptural justification for your answer. For example, if you were John Piper you could give scriptural support for the idea that good works are necessary, or that sola fide gives us assurance and certainty. I'm just not interested in proof texts for the doctrine of sola fide itself.

...

The question is a very important one, but also deceptively deep.

I can not give a "Protestant" only answer, however, anymore then I could give a "Catholic" only answer, or an "Orthodox" only answer. Where the later was entirely ignored in the sixteenth century debate because they really did not even knew they existed.

And assuming all truth must either be Catholic or Protestant or Orthodox, or it does not exist... is like attempting to believe a tree might fall in the forest, and without anyone around to hear it, it really won't make any sound. No one can really believe that, though they often do try. Very hard.

What is the work we must do to be saved? "Believe in the One God sent", was the answer Jesus gave. And he meant, of course, Himself.

No other way is like this. Not in the past two thousand years, not in the years before this. Jesus has a sheer monopoly on this.

(Not unlike how he has a sheer monopoly on being non-judgmental, loving, and offering immortality.)

I do believe what is truly central to understanding salvation by faith via paper, via The Book, one should consider not only the above verse directly from Jesus... but, also the verse from John who pointed out 'if the word remains with you, then so does He, and if He remains with you, then so does everlasting life'. To paraphrase. Accurately.

And, thirdly, what Paul said very specifically when pointing out we are saved by faith and not works, immediately afterwards stating in no unsure terms that "no one may boast before the throne of God".

"God, look at what I did", or, as Jesus pointed out, "many will come to me on that Day and say, 'But, Lord I did so much for you'".

I would go so far as to say, if you ever find yourself saying anything like this to God, or even to others, then you should take that as a very big "red flag".

Which is a good question we should always consider for our own selves. As, in the world, which we do live, "doing things" is highly accounted for. We have resumes, we have accomlishments, we have skills and expertise.

For me, I have found all of that as merely language with which to interact with folks on the most superficial terms. It is worthless for salvation.

Rather, I find myself sure in my salvation literally through testing of my very faith, literally through "fear and trembling". In other words, I have passed through the fire of unsureness so often, and so often come out the other side... how? By some weird thing I did, or many weird things I did -- as do not forget many of the things the great ones of old did "by faith" were extremely strange, very alien..

No, by trusting in God. That relieves the fire. By God bringing forth mercy and hope, to pull me through.

Rinse, repeat.

I can certainly be open to mocking on saying such a thing, though, obviously, unfairly. I suppose I could bring forth a meaningless boast or two, as Paul did when sarcastically bringing up the external view of the absurd trials and tribulations the apostles went through...

I could say, I have walked through hell fire for God, and lived to tell of it. And the road behind me, *shakes head*, is not a road I would wish on even my most sore of enemies...

But, the truth is, I was able to walk through that because the light of the mercy of God brought me through it. There is no boasting of that. It was God showing me mercy.

I certainly had to let go of overly harsh judgments I had made. I had to let go of about everything. But, then, we are called to let go of all such things, to make it through to life. We are called to give up, everything, to find everything. And we find in "making our salvation sure" in "fear and trembling", when we can let go, we do so because there is simply a hand outstretched encouraging us to do exactly this.

All and everything in that road was in the heart and of the heart. Nothing had to do with external actions and words, except insofar as judgments or mercy in my heart sprung forth such words and actions. That is, if I judged something wrongly, I was shown that standard was wrong. As if I applied it to God himself. And, if I judged someone rightly, that standard was right, as if I had applied it to God himself.

The wrong judgments I had to throw out. The good judgments I was allowed to keep.

I had to correct the accuracy in my heart. No literal clothes given or refused to be given. Just mercy or not in the secret judgments of my heart.

In my own walk, anyway, I literally found myself, at turns, both sheep and goat. Both accepted virgin and virgin locked out. And the way, for me, was for God to show me where my thoughts themselves on others were wrong, and to correct those thoughts. And, so, forgiveness, and hope.
 
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JacksBratt

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Purgatory to me makes sense as an explanation for our need to be made Holy.
There is no need for anything like "purgatory" as the blood of Christ is sufficient to make us Holy beyond any shadow of a doubt.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Good grief, the term " boasting", "claiming" was used only to explain that circumcision, effort, was not required to get into the community known as the People of God, Abraham being the prototype, the father of all those in the future who would be justified by faith.


As for meritorious work, meritorious effort, God reckoned, an accounting term, Abraham's giving of Isaac as a credit entry, adding to, enriching his account balance.

Just how much work does it take to buy salvation?
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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What do we overcome?

How do we know we overcome through being in Christ and not by self effort?

We overcome the world when we enter in (to His kingdom) and there is no longer a duality (battle of flesh and spirit) within. The old serpent leaves our garden and cannot touch us anymore. Sin = death, so victory over sin/death. It is not something we can do by our own efforts other than to exercise our faith which is to truly believe the promises can be ours so we SEEK Him with a consuming passion/hunger/thirst that only HE can satisfy. And the new Life IN Christ is utterly different from the old one.

There will be no mistaking that it came from God...for with man it is impossible, but with God ALL things are possible. God transforms us from the inside out. Nothing outside of us (world) can translate us into His marvelous kingdom...which is within.



1 John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
 
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I keep posting that faith is loyalty, not mental assent that Jesus is Lord.

Abraham's work was not righteous, he was about to go ahead with human sacrifice.

However, it was loyal.
That was not Abraham's intention at all since he had told his son that God would provide the sacrifice.
 
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