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he believed...was what made him righteous in God's eyes. Not his works. His works demonstrated where his faith was -TOTALLY trusting God.
Sola fide is the Latin shorthand for the Protestant claim that we are justified by faith alone. In this thread I want to hear why Protestants think we are justified by faith alone, but I am not interested in scriptural justifications. ...
I'm just not interested in proof texts for the doctrine of sola fide itself.
No. Loyalty is the bank account. Belief gets you a plus count. Works gets you a plus count.
No. Loyalty is the bank account. Belief gets you a plus count. Works gets you a plus count.
Faith is loyalty mistranslated today as belief. It consists of pledging and obeying. Pledging is enough to put you in favour (God's good graces) with God. The Jews insistence on circumcision was blocked by the example Paul gave of Abraham. Faith alone. Don't use that as an example of support for the doctrine of solar fide. Obeying is what completes the pledge.Do you see faith and works as two separate things?
It's breathtaking to see someone actually write those words. To think that someone could deliberately place his fingers on the keys of a keyboard, and form those words. . .
Faith is loyalty mistranslated today as belief. It consists of pledging and obeying. Pledging is enough to put you in favour (God's good graces) with God. The Jews insistence on circumcision was blocked by the example Paul gave of Abraham. Faith alone. Don't use that as an example of support for the doctrine of solar fide. Obeying is what completes the pledge.
James 2:22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD,AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
I'll add some verses into the mix (though I am well aware of the fact that you already know themIt's breathtaking to see someone reduce all the work Paul did to complete his salvation to a nullity, so casually. Without offering Scriptural support. Not even half a verse.
It is all about perception of where we are at in the process taking place within.
Our circumcision (in the New Covenant through Christ) is of the heart...flesh removed and walking in the spirit, transformed a new creation in Christ that comes by faith. Faith is not just saying we believe, for faith is most certainly an action word. And it is faith that spurs us on doing the works that are consistent with genuine faith, seeking God's way and walking in it by the power of the Holy Spirit. No brownie points involved. Just peace, joy and LOVE from The Father, being IN Christ.
The reward of our faith, becoming ONE in Christ.
The Greek word 'logizomai' in the bible you have used has been translated 'reckoned'. In the King James Version it has been translated as "imputed".
Faith, from the Greek "pistis" means faith, belief, firm persuasion, 2 Corinthians 5:7, Hebrews 11:1; assurance, firm conviction, Romans 14:23; ground of belief, guarantee, assurance, Acts 17:31; faithfulness, truthfulness, Romans 3:3
I'll add some verses into the mix (though I am well aware of the fact that you already know them).
Romans 4
5 To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Ephesians 2
8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Titus 3
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.
You may want to consider your choice of words pretty carefully where these verses are concerned. This is GT after all, not the CT board (although going too far beyond the pale of Christian orthodoxy on that board is frowned upon as well).
I'm pretty sure that a full-blown discussion of Pelagianism was not what Zippy had in mind when he wrote the OP, but only he can answer that one.
Yours and His,
David
"If it is by grace, then it cannot be based on works;
if it were, grace would no longer be grace"
Romans 11:6
Quote
"A closer look: imputed righteousness versus reckoned righteous".
....................
"Luther himself does not always go quite this far. He is prepared to say that only by the accrediting of a merciful God and by faith in his word do we become just. He also is prepared to say that all of our good is in fact outside ourselves and located in Christ. But, as scholars have pointed out, Luther does not usually use the language of imputation."
..….…..….....…..........…....
"The crediting language ("it was reckoned") is not forensic language but commercial or bookkeeping language... In early Judaism there was the belief in the good and evil deeds of a person being recorded in ledgers... It is a mistake to simply read Paul's righteousness language through a forensic filter, not least because Paul believes that God requires of his people that, once saved, they actually lead righteous lives. Paul would likely be appalled by the notion that he is talking about some sort of legal fiction, including the idea that Christ is righteous in the believer's place in such a way that believers are not required to be righteous. Even worse would be the notion that when God looks at believers, he simply sees Christ's righteousness and reckons it to their accounts, instead of believers having to live holy lives."
http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.in/2008/08/romanswitherington-4.html?m=1
The blogger is referring to a book by Ben Witherington in which it is pointed out:
The Latin Vulgate translates Romans 4 as Abraham believed God and it was reckoned (reputatum) as righteousness.
Jewish scholars viewed the recording of individual sin and righteousness as an accounting model. In other words, in the text, righteousness was actually credited to Abraham. The exchange is Abraham faith becoming Abraham's righteousness, just as your deposited cheque becomes your credit amount in your bank account.
Unfortunately, Erasmus used imputatum instead of reputatum for his translation choice in his famous Greek New Testament of 1516.
So reckoned, counted became 'linked'.
But Luther never taught the idea of imputed righteousness. It was Melanchthon who did. He used Erasmus' Greek New Testament and the idea became lodged in Reformed teaching, even getting imported into to other area of Pauline teaching, as in
2 Corinthians 5:21God made him who had no sin to be sinb for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
where the Reformers taught that our sin is imputed to Christ, and His righteousness imputed to us: the imputation "exchange".
Unfortunately, hamartia is an often used hebraism for "sin offering". DO we really want to go there?
The Indelible Image : Theological and Ethical Thoughts
Ben Witherington
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=rlu12_cDcV0C&pg=PA226&lpg=PA226&dq=witherington+imputatum+erasmus&source=bl&ots=37Er98Sp2-&sig=u9gOgaXJD4w_WviBiBX8tUBfQkc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZ3N37lbvPAhUXSY8KHeFSBssQ6AEIHjAB
Do you see faith and works as two separate things?
James speaks to - works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation.
I was replying to the concept that there is such a thing as a 'bank's for works that tips the scale and presented as separate from Faith...James 2:24------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves/justifies
John 3:16-------believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves/not perish
Rom 10:9 ------confession>>>>>>>>>>>>>salvation
Since there is just one way to be saved, then believing must be a work (see my last post above) and confession must also be an obedient work.
Romans 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
The obedient works of believing and confessing are UNTO salvation. One does not do these works because he ALREADY is saved. Therefore James speaks of obedient works (as Abraham's faith) that lead to his being justified. Abraham was not already justified BEFORE he did obedient works God gave him to do. James pin points Abraham's final justification when he offered Isaac (James 2:21 cf Genesis 22:12)
Yes believing is faith in action.James 2:24------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves/justifies
John 3:16-------believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves/not perish
Rom 10:9 ------confession>>>>>>>>>>>>>salvation
Since there is just one way to be saved, then believing must be a work (see my last post above) and confession must also be an obedient work.
Romans 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
The obedient works of believing and confessing are UNTO salvation. One does not do these works because he ALREADY is saved. Therefore James speaks of obedient works (as Abraham's faith) that lead to his being justified. Abraham was not already justified BEFORE he did obedient works God gave him to do. James pin points Abraham's final justification when he offered Isaac (James 2:21 cf Genesis 22:12)
The Latin Vulgate translates Romans 4 as Abraham believed God and it was reckoned (reputatum) as righteousness.
I was replying to the concept that there is such a thing as a 'bank's for works that tips the scale and presented as separate from Faith...
EDIT: righteous works are a result of faith as James says...
Yes believing is faith in action.
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