why ECT became the dominant view in the west

[Omniskeptical]

Your 1st 2 sentences are meaningless. That being the case, as you insist, then we should not read any more arguments from you about the meaning of words in the NT. My understanding is Greek has been the language of Greece since the beginning. Greek might have undergone some changes over centuries but, much in the same manner as English, modern scholars know the meaning of archaic words.

It isn't the same manner as English. Mass nouns were introduced either from Mideval languages or English. Probably English, because τη is a recent inflection of the article.

 

[Der Alte]

It isn't the same manner as English. Mass nouns were introduced either from Mideval languages or English. Probably English, because τη is recent inflection of the article.

I said "much in the same manner as English." You make a lot of claims, but I don't see any credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical evidence.

 

[Omniskeptical]

I said "much in the same manner as English." You make a lot of claims, but I don't see any credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical evidence.

Like I said, it wasn't in the same manner. And for someone who faults the King Jimmy, you don't object to its hazy translation.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

How does this prove preservation?

You keep saying that Koine Greek is a dead language and I am telling you it is not dead as it continues to be used on a regular basis within the Greek Orthodox world.

 

[Omniskeptical]

You keep saying that Koine Greek is a dead language and I am telling you it is not dead as it continues to be used on a regular basis within the Greek Orthodox world.

Latin is a dead language, but it continues to be used. Hebrew is a dead language, though there are deniers etc. Dead languages are guesswork.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Latin is a dead language, but it continues to be used. Hebrew is a dead language, though there are deniers etc. Dead languages are guesswork.

So how much Greek do YOU speak on a regular basis? I'm using it all the time at church.

 

[Omniskeptical]

So how much Greek do YOU speak on a regular basis? I'm using it all the time at church.

I read the letters and the nouns. I use Erasmian pronunciation mostly.

 

[Der Alte]

Like I said, it wasn't in the same manner. And for someone who faults the King Jimmy, you don't object to its hazy translation.

I don't rely on the KJV.

EOB Matt 18:3 Jesus called a little child to himself and set him in their midst. 3 He then said, “Amen, I tell you that unless you change and become as little children, you will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Matt 6:33 Seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.​

 

[Omniskeptical]

I don't rely on the KJV.

EOB Matt 18:3 Jesus called a little child to himself and set him in their midst. 3 He then said, “Amen, I tell you that unless you change and become as little children, you will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. ​

Matt 6:33 Seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.​

Do you think LOGOS or Accordance would be enough help with research?

 

[Der Alte]

Do you think LOGOS or Accordance would be enough help with research?

Do you? You have mentioned it a time or two. I have Logos. OBTW, I use modern Greek pronunciation not Erasmian. Lowgohs.

 

[Der Alte]

Latin is a dead language, but it continues to be used. Hebrew is a dead language, though there are deniers etc. Dead languages are guesswork.

Yeah right, the Jews never ceased to exist and they passed their language and customs on to their children, generation after generation. During the Babylonian captivity to keep their language alive since they could not make changes to the words of scripture they devised vowel points which were placed above, inside and below the letters which indicated to the reader how the letter should be pronounced.

 

[prodromos]

It is not a unsupported accusation it’s truth. I will show you an example of what I am saying ( it’s not something that you have not heard before) God is love , he is not a God who loves , love is his essence his character and God can’t do anything that is not out of love . You believe that God knowingly made a large part of his creation knowing full well that he would have to torture forever those who are called his enemies. If that were true it would be more loving to not have created them in the first place. And you call that love? No love is creating people that you will redeem and he will do it some in this age most in the age or ages to come, now that is love. That is Gods character and you do not believe that , and that is why I said you do not know Gods character, you know western religion well and you have a better grasp on it than most. That is what I said .

You conveniently ignore the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son. The Father loves him just as much as the younger brother who left the home, yet the older brother refuses to enter in to the house on his brother's return. The Father is not torturing the older brother, the older brother is doing it to himself.
God's love does not change. Our response to that love determines our eternal fate.

 

[ozso]

You conveniently ignore the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son. The Father loves him just as much as the younger brother who left the home, yet the older brother refuses to enter in to the house on his brother's return. The Father is not torturing the older brother, the older brother is doing it to himself.
God's love does not change. Our response to that love determines our eternal fate.

What if the older brother repents / changes his mind later on?

 

[prodromos]

What if the older brother repents / changes his mind later on?

Jesus doesn't take the parable any further, He just leaves it there.

 

[FireDragon76]

Jesus doesn't take the parable any further, He just leaves it there.

In the West, this is often a story used to shame "sinners" and offer them hope of redemption, but I think it ignores that Jesus gives it a twist ending, as you point out. It's not the sinner that is excluded, but the older brother that is disgusted by the father's love and excludes himself.

This is really a parable Jesus used to confront the pharisees with their ingracious behavior, who didn't appreciate Jesus eating with sinners.

 

[Fervent]

It most definitely means correction or chatisement; this the Hellenic definition. Objects that are human can be receive punishment but they don't receive kolasis i.e. penalties.

And the verb;

STRONGS G2849:
κολαζο: present passive participle κολαζόμενος; 1 aorist middle sub. junc. 3 person plural κολάσωνται; (κόλος lopped); in Greek writings:
1. properly, to lop, prune, as trees, wings.
2. to check, curb, restrain.
3. to chastise, correct, punish: so in the N. T.; passive 2 Peter 2:9, and Lachmann in 4; middle to cause to be punished (3Macc. 7:3): Acts 4:21.
THAYER’S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006, 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com

BLB Scripture Index of Thayer's​

Acts4:212 Peter2:9

makes the kill.

You're committing a root fallacy, even if kolazo happens to be the root of kolasis it doesn't have much bearing on the contemporary meaning in Matthew. The only way to know what kolasis means is to look to the context in which it is used, which is most readily understood as punishment which is entirely within the semantic range of the word when we consider its usage in the Septuagint. Which is why the vast, vast, majority of scholarship on it is straightforward rather than the ad hoc rationalizations that go into denying Matt. 25.

 

[ozso]

It's amazing to me that ECT doctrine is mainly supported by one single word used scripture. It stands or falls depending on interpretation of the word kolasis. Which is used to sum up a parable about love and mercy towards others no less.

 

[Fervent]

It's amazing to me that ECT doctrine is mainly supported by one single word used scripture. It stands or falls depending on interpretation of the word kolasis. Which is used to sum up a parable about love and mercy towards others no less.

Its built on far more than that, Matt 25 is simply the most direct statement regarding eternal punishment. And the theme of the passage is judgment, not charity or mercy.

 

[ozso]

Its built on far more than that, Matt 25 is simply the most direct statement regarding eternal punishment. And the theme of the passage is judgment, not charity or mercy.

Matt 25:46 is the main support beam though. And it's judgement of the nations regarding whether or not they showed love, compassion and mercy on others.

 

[Fervent]

Matt 25:46 is the main support beam though. And it's judgement of the nations regarding whether or not they showed love, compassion and mercy on others.

It's not judgment of nations, it's separating sheep from goats. The display of love is, essentially, incidental rather than central to the passage. The central premise is that Christ will judge and discriminate. And it's not that it is the main support beam, but the most clear and direct statement on judgment from the mouth of Jesus so any contrary position must give an answer to it. That the best alternatives seem to be able to do is weak weaseling on what a word means that primarily rests on faulty translation methods is quite telling, especially since the most natural translation fits perfectly with the context of the passage and its central theme.