why ECT became the dominant view in the west

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Sorry amigo it may be called a lexicon but that is NOT a lexicon. Please see my post #112 above which shows what a lexical entry should look like. What you posted is just the scholar giving his opinion. A lexicon shows the sources consulted in determining the correct definition.
ETA: Upon further reflection I must point out that the Greek word "aionios" in the entry quoted above it is translated "age long" "age" is a noun therefore it is incorrect.

Afternoon Der Alte,

You probably know this but Aionios gets translated into "age" in our texts so for example,
Εὐλογημένη ἡ Βασιλεία τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος, νῦν καὶ ἀεί, καὶ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.

Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, now and forever and to the ages of ages.

But ages of ages is an idiom for eternity. Sometimes, for musical reasons, it might get translated as "to the endless ages".

 

[Fervent]

I just looked up Matthew 25:46 in a lexicon and saw this:

View attachment 333826

Matthew 25:46 Lexicon: "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Now is that conclusive? No. Does it prove UR proponents are right? No. But it is there from a pretty reliable and presumably non-URite source.

This seems to betray a misunderstanding of how translations work(in fact, the whole business of atomizing the words in general does). Translations are not about simply plugging in words that are equivalent to each other because there are generally no exact matches across languages, but issues of connotation have to be taken into account as well. It's not that "correction" is outside of the bounds of the word kolasis, but that such a translation is unsuitable to the context. Same with "age long" for aionion, especially since it is paralleled with eternal life. Punishment is a perfectly suitable translation for kolasis, and the choice of kolasis seems appropriate when we consider alternatives in Greek such as timoria. So the discussion is not whether these words can have alternative meaning, but what the most appropriate understanding of them in the context and circumstances in which they are found. The finality of the passage rules out correction, because correction is a temporary process and the parallel between aionion zoe and aionion kolasis would make it highly unlikely that in one place it is intended to mean an unspecified but temporary duration and in the other a permanent condition.

 

[Der Alte]

Afternoon Der Alte,
You probably know this but Aionios gets translated into "age" in our texts so for example,
Εὐλογημένη ἡ Βασιλεία τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος, νῦν καὶ ἀεί, καὶ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.
Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, now and forever and to the ages of ages.
But ages of ages is an idiom for eternity. Sometimes, for musical reasons, it might get translated as "to the endless ages".

FYI I have been active at this forum for more than 2 decades. Early on I saw many discussions [I almost wrote "arguments"] from a multitude of 'scholars" saying 'aionios" never means "eternal." Since I am retired times 3 I decided to review every occurrence of "aionios" in the N.T. Here is a snippet of that study.
“αιωνιος/aionios” occurs 71x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [1%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “eternal” 42 times in the N.T.[52%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “everlasting” 25 times in the N.T.[34.7%]
“aionios” is never translated “age(s)”
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, [38.8% of total] Jesus never used “aionios” to refer anything common, ordinary, mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
…..Some people claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never mean eternity/eternal,” because a few times they refer to something which is not eternal e.g. “world.”
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses.
…..In the following nine verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal.” Lk 1:33, John 6:58, 3:15, 3:16, 5:29, 3:36, 4:14, 6:27, 8:51

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. By definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.
In these vss. Peter, Paul and John describe/define "aionios" as "eternal.
Romans 5:21, Ephesians 3;21, Romans 1:20, Romans 16:26, 2 Cor 4:17-18, 2 Cor 5:1, 1 Tim 6:16, Gal 6:8, Rom 2:7, 1 Tim 1:17, Rom 5:21, Eph 3:21, Rom 6:23, Gal 6:8, Heb 7:24, 1 Pet 1:23, 1 Pet 5:10, Rev 14:11,

 

[Der Alte]

#112 looks like what's basically mostly code that needs to be decrypted.
Occam's razor: The simplest explanation is preferable to one that is more complex.
What you just posted is just someone who's not a scholar giving his opinion.

What looks like "code" are abbreviations of the sources which are fully listed in the bibliography at the back of the book for ambitious scholars who want to research them for themselves. I just happen to have a master's in theology, but I don't claim to be a "scholar". You are incorrect unlike the lexical entry which I quoted what you posted are merely one-word definitions which do NOT show how the scholar arrived at the definitions posted. None of them are proper "lexical entries." If my final comment was incorrect, please explain to me how a Greek noun can be translated as an English verb?

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

FYI I have been active at this forum for more than 2 decades. Early on I saw many discussions [I almost wrote "arguments"] from a multitude of 'scholars" saying 'aionios" never means "eternal." Since I am retired times 3 I decided to review every occurrence of "aionios" in the N.T. Here is a snippet of that study.

Agreed, that aionios means eternal. For example, the hymn Αἰωνία ἡ μνήμη, is translated "Eternal be, your memory".

I'm just wondering if in services, it got revised to mean age or something for singing purposes as opposed to theology. For example,
the 1941 Lutheran Hymnal often used the phrase, "through Jesus Christ, our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with Thee and the Holy Ghost, ever one God, world without end"

There are Lutherans who argued that phrase, "World without End" is heretical that the world never ends. But I always understood that it meant eternity.

This is a sincere question here Der Alte. So the end of the Δόξα Πατρὶ in Greek ends with this:
Καὶ νῦν καὶ ἀεί, καὶ εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. Ἀμήν.

Would you translate it directly for theological content or because 90% of Orthodox services are sung would you translate it for singing?

 

[Ceallaigh]

This seems to betray a misunderstanding of how translations work(in fact, the whole business of atomizing the words in general does). Translations are not about simply plugging in words that are equivalent to each other because there are generally no exact matches across languages, but issues of connotation have to be taken into account as well. It's not that "correction" is outside of the bounds of the word kolasis, but that such a translation is unsuitable to the context. Same with "age long" for aionion, especially since it is paralleled with eternal life. Punishment is a perfectly suitable translation for kolasis, and the choice of kolasis seems appropriate when we consider alternatives in Greek such as timoria. So the discussion is not whether these words can have alternative meaning, but what the most appropriate understanding of them in the context and circumstances in which they are found. The finality of the passage rules out correction, because correction is a temporary process and the parallel between aionion zoe and aionion kolasis would make it highly unlikely that in one place it is intended to mean an unspecified but temporary duration and in the other a permanent condition.

I've heard that aionion zoe doesn't really have to do with the afterlife. But rather basically sanctification in this present life. What the Eastern Orthodox call Theosis. The example given was Luke 10:25 "On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” [aionion zoe]. And interestingly the whole passage, known as the Parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37, has to to with proactive compassion and mercy in helping someone, just like it does in Matthew 25:31-46. So now we have two separate passages where Jesus says aionion zoe (Theosis?) is achieved through loving your neighbor. @PsaltiChrysostom what's your opinion on this idea?

 

[Fervent]

I've heard that aionion zoe doesn't really have anything to do with the afterlife and going to heaven. But rather basically sanctification in this present life. What the Eastern Orthodox call Theosis. The example given was Luke 10:25 "On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” [aionion zoe]. And interestingly the whole passage, known as the Parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37, has to to with proactive compassion and mercy in helping someone, just like it does in Matthew 25:31-46. So now we have two separate passages where Jesus says aionion zoe is achieved through loving your neighbor.

That doesn't make sense of the context, and actually runs completely contrary to the correction view of Matt. 25:46 since it would mean in both cases the groups are simply going to sanctification meaning there is no real distinction between the two groups. You spoke of Occam's razor earlier, though when you did you paraphrased it as a common misconception(simple explanation is best) when it is "do not multiply entities unnecessarily." Which is exactly what you seem to be doing with ad hoc addendums to draw away from the most direct context-sensitive understanding of the words in question.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Here's an interesting message regarding the meaning of aionion zoe. This starts out sounding like a prosperity movement message, but it's not.

 

[Ceallaigh]

That doesn't make sense of the context, and actually runs completely contrary to the correction view of Matt. 25:46 since it would mean in both cases the groups are simply going to sanctification meaning there is no real distinction between the two groups. You spoke of Occam's razor earlier, though when you did you paraphrased it as a common misconception(simple explanation is best) when it is "do not multiply entities unnecessarily." Which is exactly what you seem to be doing with ad hoc addendums to draw away from the most direct context-sensitive understanding of the words in question.

It's often been pointed out that what doesn't seem to make sense is both groups are going to experience living forever. That it only seems to make since if annihilation is seen as the outcome of the goats.

 

[Fervent]

It's often been pointed out that what doesn't seem to make sense is both groups are going to experience living forever. That it only seems to make since if annihilation is seen as the outcome of the goats.

Annihilationism is certainly one way to understand it, but zoe in Greek has connotations that go well beyond simply continuing to exist so the continued existence of those in torment doesn't necessarily conflict.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Annihilationism is certainly one way to understand it, but zoe in Greek has connotations that go well beyond simply continuing to exist so the continued existence of those in torment doesn't necessarily conflict.

Well the connotations of zoe is what I'm trying to flesh out and why aionion zoe and aionion kolasis don't conflict.

 

[Fervent]

Well the connotations of zoe is what I'm trying to flesh out and why aionion zoe and aionion kolasis don't conflict.

Zoe is not just life, but a fluorishing life. There are a few words for life in Greek, with bare existence being most close to bios. Zoe is more like vitality than existence, essentially.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Zoe is not just life, but a fluorishing life. There are a few words for life in Greek, with bare existence being most close to bios. Zoe is more like vitality than existence, essentially.

That's exactly what the second video I posted is about.

 

[Fervent]

That's exactly what the second video I posted is about.

Yeah, but aionion zoe is not simply a high quality life this side of the grave otherwise the adjective aionion would be redundant. Aionion is most naturally translated eternal or unending, and the reason "age during" or similar are sometimes proposed is because aion is a peculiar way of marking time based not on its duration but on its content. In either case, the context of the Olivet discourse marks it off as terminal and there's no indication of an age to follow the two parallel uses of aionion.

 

[Ceallaigh]

What looks like "code" are abbreviations of the sources which are fully listed in the bibliography at the back of the book for ambitious scholars who want to research them for themselves.

Yes, I know exactly what it is and it's something that can't simply be directly read. It all has to be deciphered.

I just happen to have a master's in theology, but I don't claim to be a "scholar". You are incorrect unlike the lexical entry which I quoted what you posted are merely one-word definitions which do NOT show how the scholar arrived at the definitions posted. None of them are proper "lexical entries." If my final comment was incorrect, please explain to me how a Greek noun can be translated as an English verb?

Either you or whoever put together the NASB lexicon is wrong. It seems far more likely that out of the two, you're the one who's in error.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Yeah, but aionion zoe is not simply a high quality life this side of the grave otherwise the adjective aionion would be redundant. Aionion is most naturally translated eternal or unending, and the reason "age during" or similar are sometimes proposed is because aion is a peculiar way of marking time based not on its duration but on its content.

That again is what I'm getting at. Quality as opposed to quantity (time).

In either case, the context of the Olivet discourse marks it off as terminal and there's no indication of an age to follow the two parallel uses of aionion.

But Jesus does talk about the present age and the age to come. Like in Mark 10:29-30 for example; “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life [aionion zoe].

Not the eternity to come, but rather in the age to come.

 

[Fervent]

That again is what I'm getting at. Quality as opposed to quantity (time).

But Jesus does talk about the present age and the age to come. Like in Mark 10:29-30 for example; “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life [aionion zoe].

Not the eternity to come, but rather in the age to come.

The age to come, yes, but not an age after the age to come. The judgment in Matthew 25 is essentially the inauguration of the age to come, with the defining quality of that age depending on the judgment. The only way for the "correction" view to be correct would be if there was an age that followed the age to come, which there's no indication of such a thing anywhere in Scripture.

 

[Ceallaigh]

The age to come, yes, but not an age after the age to come. The judgment in Matthew 25 is essentially the inauguration of the age to come, with the defining quality of that age depending on the judgment. The only way for the "correction" view to be correct would be if there was an age that followed the age to come, which there's no indication of such a thing anywhere in Scripture.

What about: "And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:6-7 NIV. Other translations like KJV and NASB have "ages to come".

Many consider "the millennium" the next age of the ages to come.

 

[Fervent]

What about: "And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:6-7

I'm not sure why you would think that implies there's going to be an age after the eschaton.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I'm not sure why you would think that implies there's going to be an age after eschaton.

What is the concept of "the eschaton" derived from?