why ECT became the dominant view in the west

[Jeff Saunders]

Eph 5:1 "Therefore be imitators of God as beloved children" IN the early church there were 3 schools of thought UR, Annihilation . and ECT . How we imitate God in our actions will depend on our view of God. UR view God as a loving Father and the great physician, they saw Jesus as God in the flesh and he is our example . Jesus loved the down trodden was friend of tax collectors and sinners, feed the hungry healed the sick and showed the love of the Father to a sick world , he even said on the cross to the very people who were killing him "father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing. They believed in Apokatastasis and that Jesus was the savior of the world not the potential savior. Jesus was meek and humble of heart willing to take on the role of servant even washing his followers feet. they were non violent and that is how they saw God and tried to imitate that in their lives because they saw God in that. Then comes along Augustine, He couldn't read Greek only Latin and had some bad translations and did not see God as a loving Father but a God no different than the other Greek Gods just more powerful . ECT sees God as a God who loves and hates is jealous and even got to the point that he was sorry he made man. ( as if God made a mistake) He is also no different from the other Gods in that he had all this wrath that needed to be taken out on someone and Jesus stepped in and took Gods wrath in our place and if you cross him he will torcher you forever. When Augustine / Justinian/ Constantine gained power and combined religion and government and took control they were imitators of their view of God, if God can kill and torcher his enemies they should also , the killing of those who disagree was an acceptable norm. So if you were to put 2 people in a room one believes in loving your enemies and praying for them and one believes that killing you enemies is ok who comes out the winner? UR doesn't believe that you advance Gods kingdom by the sword but on your knees so fighting back is not an option. Now for about 1500 years ECT ruled by the sword and even when so far as to try to stamp out those who oppose them, they even have had 1500 years of "scholars" who have written many volumes of books saying we are correct and if you don't agree with us you may die and all opposition is silenced its no wonder that that view had dominated the western church. Fortunately in todays world they are no longer killing us who have a different view and we have the internet to read the very things that have been hidden for so many years, we can go and read the early church Fathers and find out what they believed and read things that we didn't even know existed . I went to a 4 year Bible college and these early church writings were never even alluded to or studied. The cat is out of the bag now and the information that is available is growing, and I now know for a fact that Apokatastasis is Gods heart and his scripture is the grand story of how he is completing what he started a long time ago.

 

[Der Alte]

Eph 5:1 "Therefore be imitators of God as beloved children" IN the early church there were 3 schools of thought UR, Annihilation . and ECT . How we imitate God in our actions will depend on our view of God. UR view God as a loving Father and the great physician, they saw Jesus as God in the flesh and he is our example . Jesus loved the down trodden was friend of tax collectors and sinners, feed the hungry healed the sick and showed the love of the Father to a sick world , he even said on the cross to the very people who were killing him "father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing. They believed in Apokatastasis and that Jesus was the savior of the world not the potential savior. Jesus was meek and humble of heart willing to take on the role of servant even washing his followers feet. they were non violent and that is how they saw God and tried to imitate that in their lives because they saw God in that. Then comes along Augustine, He couldn't read Greek only Latin and had some bad translations and did not see God as a loving Father but a God no different than the other Greek Gods just more powerful . ECT sees God as a God who loves and hates is jealous and even got to the point that he was sorry he made man. ( as if God made a mistake) He is also no different from the other Gods in that he had all this wrath that needed to be taken out on someone and Jesus stepped in and took Gods wrath in our place and if you cross him he will torcher you forever. When Augustine / Justinian/ Constantine gained power and combined religion and government and took control they were imitators of their view of God, if God can kill and torcher his enemies they should also , the killing of those who disagree was an acceptable norm. So if you were to put 2 people in a room one believes in loving your enemies and praying for them and one believes that killing you enemies is ok who comes out the winner? UR doesn't believe that you advance Gods kingdom by the sword but on your knees so fighting back is not an option. Now for about 1500 years ECT ruled by the sword and even when so far as to try to stamp out those who oppose them, they even have had 1500 years of "scholars" who have written many volumes of books saying we are correct and if you don't agree with us you may die and all opposition is silenced its no wonder that that view had dominated the western church. Fortunately in todays world they are no longer killing us who have a different view and we have the internet to read the very things that have been hidden for so many years, we can go and read the early church Fathers and find out what they believed and read things that we didn't even know existed . I went to a 4 year Bible college and these early church writings were never even alluded to or studied. The cat is out of the bag now and the information that is available is growing, and I now know for a fact that Apokatastasis is Gods heart and his scripture is the grand story of how he is completing what he started a long time ago.

All somewhat interesting but I did not see one reference to any credible, verifiable, historical, lexical or grammatical evidence.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, linked below, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..I doubt there is anyone better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.
= = =

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Neither the Father, Himself, nor Jesus, Himself, ever said that all mankind will be saved, or enter the kingdom of heaven.
As a matter of fact, Jesus said, “Not every one …shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;” Then Jesus said, “Many” [NOT a few], “will say to me in that day,” i.e. Judgement day, “Lord, Lord, have we not … in thy name done many wonderful works?”
Then Jesus will say to those “many” “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” When Jesus says “never” He means “never” not someday by and by.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

All somewhat interesting but I did not see one reference to any credible, verifiable, historical, lexical or grammatical evidence.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, linked below, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..I doubt there is anyone better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.
= = =

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Neither the Father, Himself, nor Jesus, Himself, ever said that all mankind will be saved, or enter the kingdom of heaven.
As a matter of fact, Jesus said, “Not every one …shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;” Then Jesus said, “Many” [NOT a few], “will say to me in that day,” i.e. Judgement day, “Lord, Lord, have we not … in thy name done many wonderful works?”
Then Jesus will say to those “many” “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” When Jesus says “never” He means “never” not someday by and by.

one thing for sure you don't disappoint I can always count on you to prove my point . we are suppose to be the called out ones and all you can do is give me mans way of doing things drawing from the very work that ECT has come to dominate . I would bet most if not all your sources are from the year 300 ad and newer so if you read my post of course they will parrot the ECT doctrine and I for one do not put store in that. I am not saying that everything in them is wrong but they do not understand Gods plan for Apokatastasis and therefore have error in there thinking. Go ahead and say what you will / no lexicon refrences / no whatever I dont care I know the truth and the truth has set me free and I pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to Gods truth because you are way smarter than I am and if that thinking was poured into who God is and his real plan that would be a great thing for the kingdom.

 

[Der Alte]

one thing for sure you don't disappoint I can always count on you to prove my point . we are suppose to be the called out ones and all you can do is give me mans way of doing things drawing from the very work that ECT has come to dominate . I would bet most if not all your sources are from the year 300 ad and newer so if you read my post of course they will parrot the ECT doctrine and I for one do not put store in that. I am not saying that everything in them is wrong but they do not understand Gods plan for Apokatastasis and therefore have error in there thinking. Go ahead and say what you will / no lexicon refrences / no whatever I dont care I know the truth and the truth has set me free and I pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to Gods truth because you are way smarter than I am and if that thinking was poured into who God is and his real plan that would be a great thing for the kingdom.

So I am expected to blindly, uncritically accept everything you post without any evidential support of any kind? That is the most absurd thing I have ever read at this forum.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

So I am expected to blindly, uncritically accept everything you post without any evidential support of any kind? That is the most absurd thing I have ever read at this forum.

no your not that would be foolish but if you knew God and his character we could have a discussion but from what I see you know western tradition better than most but know little of the nature and character of God .

 

[Der Alte]

no your not that would be foolish but if you knew God and his character we could have a discussion but from what I see you know western tradition better than most but know little of the nature and character of God .

I am so old that I remember the death of FDR, the end of WWII, when galloping Gerty crashed into Puget sound I was on the shore nearby and if you had lived as long as I have you would not have the ability to determine my character. Just more "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too, nuh huh!"

 

[Ceallaigh]

I am so old that I remember the death of FDR, the end of WWII, when galloping Gerty crashed into Puget sound I was on the shore nearby and if you had lived as long as I have you would not have the ability to determine my character. Just more "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too, nuh huh!"

You forgot to mention that you've been on this forum since GW Bush was in office.

 

[Der Alte]

You forgot to mention that you've been on this forum since GW Bush was in office.

Not relevant to the point I was making.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Not relevant to the point I was making.

None of it was relevant and off topic. You're approx the same age as the POTUS, big whoop.

 

[Der Alte]

None of it was relevant and off topic. You're approx the same age as the POTUS, big whoop.

Unlike most of the denizens here, I don't as a rule post things off topic. Occasionally I feel it necessary to mention pertinent background some folks think they are talking to someone who doesn't know what they are talkin about.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Unlike most of the denizens here, I don't as a rule post things off topic. Occasionally I feel it necessary to mention pertinent background some folks think they are talking to someone who doesn't know what they are talkin about.

You're about the same age as Joe Biden and he has no idea what he's talking about a lot of the time. It's irrelevant.

 

[Der Alte]

You're about the same age as Joe Biden and he has no idea what he's talking about a lot of the time. It's irrelevant.

You are correct Joe Biden is irrelevantg to any topic at this forum.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I am so old that I remember the death of FDR, the end of WWII, when galloping Gerty crashed into Puget sound I was on the shore nearby and if you had lived as long as I have you would not have the ability to determine my character. Just more "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too, nuh huh!"

I am sorry if you thought I was talking about your character because I do not know your character . I was saying ,after reading many of your posts that you do not understand the character and nature of God. I do wish we could have a normal conversation about the nature and character of God , what are your opinions not what all the books say .

 

[setst777]

no your not that would be foolish but if you knew God and his character we could have a discussion but from what I see you know western tradition better than most but know little of the nature and character of God .

Reverting to personal attacks to prove your doctrinal beliefs is sad. I can see tares doing that, but not the wheat.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Reverting to personal attacks to prove your doctrinal beliefs is sad. I can see tares doing that, but not the wheat.

That is not a personal attack it’s speaking truth, sometimes the truth hurts but that is not a attack. We are called to speak truth.

 

[sawdust]

no your not that would be foolish but if you knew God and his character we could have a discussion but from what I see you know western tradition better than most but know little of the nature and character of God .

And if you knew the nature of evil you would understand why it must be separated eternally for it cannot be redeemed.

 

[Der Alte]

That is not a personal attack it’s speaking truth, sometimes the truth hurts but that is not a attack. We are called to speak truth.

Making unsupported accusations against another, as you did, is NOT speaking the truth.

"if you knew God and his character we could have a discussion but from what I see you know western tradition better than most but [you] know little of the nature and character of God ."​

 

[Jeff Saunders]

And if you knew the nature of evil you would understand why it must be separated eternally for it cannot be redeemed.

Evil is not a thing that can be redeemed in the first place. Evil is like darkness it is the opposite of light . Evil is anything that is not of God , God is light evil is darkness.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Making unsupported accusations against another, as you did, is NOT speaking the truth.

"if you knew God and his character we could have a discussion but from what I see you know western tradition better than most but [you] know little of the nature and character of God ."​

It is not a unsupported accusation it’s truth. I will show you an example of what I am saying ( it’s not something that you have not heard before) God is love , he is not a God who loves , love is his essence his character and God can’t do anything that is not out of love . You believe that God knowingly made a large part of his creation knowing full well that he would have to torture forever those who are called his enemies. If that were true it would be more loving to not have created them in the first place. And you call that love? No love is creating people that you will redeem and he will do it some in this age most in the age or ages to come, now that is love. That is Gods character and you do not believe that , and that is why I said you do not know Gods character, you know western religion well and you have a better grasp on it than most. That is what I said .

 

[Der Alte]

It is not a unsupported accusation it’s truth. I will show you an example of what I am saying ( it’s not something that you have not heard before) God is love , he is not a God who loves , love is his essence his character and God can’t do anything that is not out of love . You believe that God knowingly made a large part of his creation knowing full well that he would have to torture forever those who are called his enemies. If that were true it would be more loving to not have created them in the first place. And you call that love? No love is creating people that you will redeem and he will do it some in this age most in the age or ages to come, now that is love. That is Gods character and you do not believe that , and that is why I said you do not know Gods character, you know western religion well and you have a better grasp on it than most. That is what I said .

These latter accusations do not conclusively show that your previous accusations were valid. You might be more correct if you confine yourself to showing anything I said is incorrect. Address the topic not the person.