Why does God not stop the evil?

[Gadarene]

This is also a misconception and is totally inaccurate. Evil is not something that is "created".

Isaiah 45:7, tiddles.

 

[Elioenai26]

That's alot of preaching you are doin' there, Elio.

I am a preacher of the gospel. I speak about it whenever I am afforded the opportunity. In this forum, I do so in a philosophical context, just like the Apostle Paul did many times throughout his life before he was beheaded for the good news.

Did you not like my previous responses to this subject?

If I point them out (again), will you (again) ignore them?

I have never talked with you at length regarding the plausibility of objective moral values and duties in a godless universe. If you would like to we can.

 

[Elioenai26]

Isaiah 45:7, tiddles.

No doubt taken from the KJV which is more accurately translated as "calamity" or "darkness" for as Keil and Delitzsch state in their OT commentary on Hebrew:

In Isa_45:7 we are led by the context to understand by darkness and evil the penal judgments, through which light and peace, or salvation, break forth for the people of God and the nations generally....

And...

By the evil (or darkness) we are not to understand the evil of guilt (malum culpae), but the evil of punishment (malum paenae). Undoubtedly, evil as an act is not the direct working of God, but the spontaneous work of a creature endowed with freedom. At the same time, evil, as well as good, has in this sense its origin in God - that He combines within Himself the first principles of love and wrath, the possibility of evil, the self-punishment of evil, and therefore the consciousness of guilt as well as the evil of punishment in the broadest sense.

Also...

The context of Isaiah 45:7 is God rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. God pours out salvation and blessings on those whom He favors. God brings judgment on those who continue to rebel against Him. “Woe to him who quarrels with his Master” (Isaiah 45:9). That is the person to whom God brings “evil” and “disaster.” So, rather than saying that God created “moral evil,” Isaiah 45:7 is presenting a common theme of Scripture – that God brings disaster on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him.

Adam Clarke also states in his commentary:

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness - It was the great principle of the Magian religion, which prevailed in Persia in the time of Cyrus, and in which probably he was educated, that there are two supreme, co-eternal, and independent causes always acting in opposition one to the other; one the author of all good, the other of all evil. The good being they called Light; the evil being, Darkness. That when Light had the ascendant, then good and happtness prevailed among men; when Darkness had the superiority, then eviI and misery abounded. An opinion that contradicts the clearest evidence of our reason, which plainly leads us to the acknowledgment of one only Supreme Being, infinitely good as well as powerful. With reference to this absurd opinion, held by the person to whom this prophecy is addressed, God, by his prophet, in the most significant terms, asserts his omnipotence and absolute supremacy: -

"I am Jehovah, and none else;
Forming light, and creating darkness,
Making peace, and creating evil:
I Jehovah am the author of all these things."

Declaring that those powers whom the Persians held to be the original authors of good and evil to mankind, representing them by light and darkness, as their proper emblems, are no other than creatures of God, the instruments which he employs in his government of the world, ordained or permitted by him in order to execute his wise and just decrees; and that there is no power, either of good or evil, independent of the one supreme God, infinite in power and in goodness.

There were, however, some among the Persians whose sentiments were more moderate as to this matter; who held the evil principle to be in some measure subordinate to the good; and that the former would at length be wholly subdued by the latter. See Hyde, De Relig. Vet. Pers. cap. xxii.
That this opinion prevailed among the Persians as early as the time of Cyrus we may, I think, infer not only from this passage of Isaiah, which has a manifest reference to it, but likewise from a passage in Xenophon’s Cyropaedia, where the same doctrine is applied to the human mind. Araspes, a noble young Persian, had fallen in love with the fair captive Panthea, committed to his charge by Cyrus. After all his boasting that he was superior to the assaults of that passion, he yielded so far to it as even to threaten violence if she would not comply with his desires. Awed by the reproof of Cyrus, fearing his displeasure, and having by cool reflection recovered his reason; in his discourse with him on this subject he says: "O Cyrus, I have certainly two souls; alld this piece of philosophy I have learned from that wicked sophist, Love. For if I had but one soul, it would not be at the same time good and evil, it would not at the same time approve of honorable and base actions; and at once desire to do, and refuse to do, the very same things. But it is plain that I am animated by two souls, and when the good soul prevails, I do what is virtuous; and when the evil one prevails, I attempt what is vicious. But now the good soul prevails, having gotten you for her assistant, and has clearly gained the superiority." Lib. 6 p. 424.

I make peace, and create evil - Evil is here evidently put for war and its attendant miseries. I will procure peace for the Israelites, and destroy Babylon by war. I form light, and create darkness. Now, as darkness is only the privation of light, so the evil of war is the privation of peace.

And the Jamieson, Brown, and Fausset Commentary on Hebrew states:

Isaiah 45:7
form ... create — yatzar, to give "form" to previously existing matter. Bara, to "create" from nothing the chaotic dark material.
light ... darkness — literally (Gen_1:1-3), emblematical also, prosperity to Cyrus, calamity to Babylon and the nations to be vanquished [Grotius] ... Isaiah refers also to the Oriental belief in two coexistent, eternal principles, ever struggling with each other, light or good, and darkness or evil, Oromasden and Ahrimanen. God, here, in opposition, asserts His sovereignty over both [Vitringa].
create evil — not moral evil (Jam_1:13), but in contrast to "peace" in the parallel clause, war, disaster (compare Psa_65:7; Amo_3:6).


It is clear from the above Gadarene, that Isaiah 45:7 is just another of the many passages that detractors take out of context to mean something other than what the author intended. Sound hermeneutics are called for here, and to lift the verse out of context the way you have is not the proper method for interpreting the text.

 

[Gadarene]

Equivocate away, apologist.

 

[Elioenai26]

Equivocate away, apologist.

Actually, if you read the bible with a spirit of humility and actually sought to learn what it taught, instead of picking and chosing what fits your skewed and warped atheistic views, you would find it to be quite illuminating in a variety of ways.

I can take a number of scriptures out of context and make them say whatever I want them to. Men have been doing this for centuries. That is why I say sound hermeneutics are required to understand these passages correctly. It is called "rightly dividing" the word.

When you supply a verse next time, just make sure you provide us with the context as well.

Thanks!

 

[Davian]

I am a preacher of the gospel. I speak about it whenever I am afforded the opportunity. In this forum, I do so in a philosophical context, just like the Apostle Paul did many times throughout his life before he was beheaded for the good news.

No, not "just like", lol.

You are just some guy posting on the internet.

I have never talked with you at length regarding the plausibility of objective moral values and duties in a godless universe. If you would like to we can.

With you ignoring my responses, it didn't go far, did it?

Let's try those morals of yours out again: Do you believe that the actions of those individuals that are responsible for genocide precludes them from entering heaven? Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Yes or no?

 

[Gadarene]

Actually, if you read the bible with a spirit of humility and actually sought to learn what it taught, instead of picking and chosing what fits your skewed and warped atheistic views, you would find it to be quite illuminating in a variety of ways.

I can take a number of scriptures out of context and make them say whatever I want them to. Men have been doing this for centuries. That is why I say sound hermeneutics are required to understand these passages correctly. It is called "rightly dividing" the word.

When you supply a verse next time, just make sure you provide us with the context as well.

Thanks!

And you think copypasting a bunch of commentary and calling it "hermeneutics" bypasses that problem?

Whatever you need to tell yourself.

 

[Elioenai26]

And you think copypasting a bunch of commentary and calling it "hermeneutics" bypasses that problem?

Whatever you need to tell yourself.

Several things to note:

1. I see nothing as a "problem". I see reading and rightly interpreting the words of God to me as a great honor and privilege and I respect His words. They are life to me.

2. I have supplied some commentary by men who actually know what the texts mean. I have supplied them for your benefit mainly because you wrongly interpreted Isaiah 45:7.

3. Hermeneutics in general is the study of interpreting scripture. A general knowledge in it is conducive to posting meaningful commentary on scripture.

 

[Elioenai26]

No, not "just like", lol.

You are just some guy posting on the internet.

I am a child of the Most High God, as well as a gentleman posting on this forum. I do so in the spirit of one who desires to see God's words rightly understood.

With you ignoring my responses, it didn't go far, did it?

Let's try those morals of yours out again: Do you believe that the actions of those individuals that are responsible for genocide precludes them from entering heaven? Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Yes or no?

The only sin that will not be forgiven man is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. So the answer to your question is no. Christ's death was sufficient to atone for the sins of the world, that is why He died, so that anyone who believes in Him might not perish, but have everlasting life. Anyone means anyone, the rapist, the child molester, the worst sin you can think of was atoned for on the cross. This is the good news. This is the gospel.

Your wife is a Christian correct? If she is a Christian, I am sure she would love to talk to you about why Christ died. What better person to learn from than her?

 

[Davian]

I am a child of the Most High God,

How many gods are there?

as well as a gentleman posting on this forum.

I do so in the spirit of one who desires to see God's words rightly understood.

You have yet to establish that they are "God's words".

You have yet to establish that it is possible for gods exist, other than as characters in books.

You are aware of that, are you not?

The only sin that will not be forgiven man is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. So the answer to your question is no.

Christ's death was sufficient to atone for the sins of the world, that is why He died, so that anyone who believes in Him might not perish, but have everlasting life. Anyone means anyone, the rapist, the child molester, the worst sin you can think of was atoned for on the cross. This is the good news. This is the gospel.

Child molesting, rape, genocide are okay by your God? These are Christian values?

Your wife is a Christian correct?

She has declined to talk about it. She no longer attends church. I don't worry about it.

If she is a Christian, I am sure she would love to talk to you about why Christ died. What better person to learn from than her?

A while back you claimed that the death and resurrection of Jesus was more than a story in a book. You failed to substantiate that claim. Do you think my wife could do better?

So why do you keep asking if genocide and child rape is "objectively wrong", when it is okay by God? Why call genocide "evil" if it is only humans that think it bad?

With a nod to this thread, you have a god that watches the child rapist commit the act, but is not concerned with the damage done, but whether the rapist believes or not?

Did I miss anything?

 

[Elioenai26]

How many gods are there?

Depends on how you are using the word.

You have yet to establish that they are "God's words".

Jesus Christ has already established that His words are forever settled in heaven.

You have yet to establish that it is possible for gods exist, other than as characters in books.

Jesus Christ, full of grace and truth has declared unto us the glory of God the Father.

Child molesting, rape, genocide are okay by your God?

They are sins. And the wages of sin is death.

These are Christian values?

Davian, I think you know more about what Christians believe than what you are letting on, at least I hope you do. You know those are not Christian values.

She has declined to talk about it. She no longer attends church. I don't worry about it.

What happened? I mean, is she alright?

A while back you claimed that the death and resurrection of Jesus was more than a story in a book. You failed to substantiate that claim. Do you think my wife could do better?

The historicity of Jesus is falsifiable if that is what you mean. I think the empty tomb discovered by the disciples, their unwavering belief that He had indeed risen from the dead, and the spread of the gospel in hostile pagan Rome is best accounted for by His bodily resurrection from the dead. Not to mention that He is living inside of me at the present moment.

So why do you keep asking if genocide and child rape is "objectively wrong", when it is okay by God? Why call genocide "evil" if it is only humans that think it bad?

I do not recall God saying that raping children and killing people because they are a certain race is okay.

With a nod to this thread, you have a god that watches the child rapist commit the act, but is not concerned with the damage done, but whether the rapist believes or not?

Did I miss anything?

A lot. Who says God is not concerned with the damage done? I am missing where you have received this information from.

 

[Gadarene]

I do not recall God saying that raping children and killing people because they are a certain race is okay.

Try reading your own Bible, apologist.

 

[Elioenai26]

Try reading your own Bible, apologist.

I have read it several times all the way through.

 

[Gadarene]

I have read it several times all the way through.

 

[Elioenai26]

Have I missed the punch line?

 

[Gadarene]

Have I missed the punch line?

Not just that

 

[Tiberius]

If it were up to God to stop evil, God would be evil.

If it up to parents to punish disobedient children, then the parents would be disobedient.

If it were up to lawmen to punish criminals, then lawmen would be criminals.

Do you see how this line of reasoning doesn't work?

 

[Davian]

Depends on how you are using the word.

How many gods, do you think?

Jesus Christ has already established that His words are forever settled in heaven.

You fail to address the point, then insult with preaching.

Jesus Christ, full of grace and truth has declared unto us the glory of God the Father.

More preaching.

Also, you are again editing my posts to alter their intent. That is intellectually dishonest. Is this the best you can do?

Again:

You have yet to establish that they are "God's words".

You have yet to establish that it is possible for gods exist, other than as characters in books.

You are aware of that, are you not?

They are sins.

So are lies in the school playground, so I have heard. A throwaway term, when you lump them in with child molesting, rape, genocide.

And the wages of sin is death.

How is death is unusual for living things?

Davian, I think you know more about what Christians believe than what you are letting on, at least I hope you do. You know those are not Christian values.

I have learned that there is very little in common between individual Christians. Over in the E&M forum, a Christian was arguing that slavery (in the bible) was okay because we are all slaves (if you consider you in your day job to be a slave).

I am serious. If child rape does not preclude you from entering this hypothetical heaven, you will need to tell me again what you mean by 'evil'.

What happened? I mean, is she alright?

She is wonderful. And my best friend.

The historicity of Jesus is falsifiable if that is what you mean.

I don't think you understand the concept of falsifiability.

I think the empty tomb discovered by the disciples, their unwavering belief that He had indeed risen from the dead, and the spread of the gospel in hostile pagan Rome is best accounted for by His bodily resurrection from the dead.

Explain how this bible story is scientifically falsifiable. If you cannot, it is of no significance.

Not to mention that He is living inside of me at the present moment.

Explain how this "Jesus lives inside me" is scientifically falsifiable. If you cannot, it is of no significance.

I do not recall God saying that raping children and killing people because they are a certain race is okay.

I said, why do you keep asking if genocide and child rape is "objectively wrong", when it is okay by God? Why call genocide "evil" if it is only humans that think it bad?

If genocide is not bad enough to bar you from heaven, what is?

A lot. Who says God is not concerned with the damage done? I am missing where you have received this information from.

You. You said, "Christ's death was sufficient to atone for the sins of the world, that is why He died, so that anyone who believes in Him might not perish, but have everlasting life. Anyone means anyone, the rapist, the child molester, the worst sin you can think of was atoned for on the cross. This is the good news. This is the gospel."
So, no repercussions for the rape of that child - if you are a believer. Where is this concern for the child?

This is your morality?

 

[quatona]

God is bound by His nature to create the best of all possible ways to the best of all possible worlds if He creates at all.

What we see currently is a world with free creatures who possess the ability to do good and evil. It is what sets us apart from all of God's creation and it is part of being God's image bearers here on earth.

It is good to be free. No one marches and shouts and protests saying: "Back to bondage, and Down with freedom!" No no no, we all want to be free. Being free is good and even if one were to protest against freedom, they would be using their freedom of speech to do so!

Being free means we can choose to love or hate, to heal or to wound, to comfort or criticize. We can love God, the locus and very source of all that is Good, or we can deny He exists, hate Him, whatever. We can love our fellow man and see Him as being fearfully and wonderfully made, or we can hate him and see him as nothing but an animal.

A free creature is capable of doing both good and evil, and many choose to do evil, hence the need for judgment on people groups who enjoyed burning their babies on fiery altars. I have no pity for any people group who would do such a thing in the name of worshiping a god. They were judged for their wickedness, and the children that died in that judgment, if any did die, then that was their salvation from a wicked and evil generation and they are at rest with the God of all glory.

If I thought as you and every other atheist thinks, I would despise God too. But you see, your understanding of God is so warped and skewed that you cannot see Him in the right light. What I see as the most loving and righteous, Holy, Source of all light, wisdom, knowledge, and love, you see as a genocidal tyrant.

You see God as a criminal sees a judge who deals sternly with criminals, I see God as one of the Judge's children. He is my father and I know how much He loves me as well as those whom He chastens and corrects. What you see as tyrant, I see as one who loved me so much that He died that I might live. He chastises me every day. He disciplines me with the rod of men because He delights in me the way a father delights in his son and wants only the best for him. God does not willingly afflict the sons of men.

I pray one day you all see Him as I do.

Next time you put so much effort in quoting me and writing a long post in response you better address the points you have quoted. Thanks.

 

[Davian]

Next time you put so much effort in quoting me and writing a long post in response you better address the points you have quoted. Thanks.

Are you not impressed with his preaching either?