Why does God not stop the evil?

[OriginalOatmeal]

So you have come here to explain what you do not understand?

I am here to explain that we cannot fully explain why things are the way they are.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

I am here to explain that we cannot fully explain why things are the way they are.

This violates so many logical principles I don't really know where to start.

 

[Oafman]

The heartless brutality of nature, and the suffering of almost all the creatures within it (of those who have developed the intelligence to suffer), makes it impossible for me to countenance the existence of a benevolent creator.

This in no way rules out, or even makes less likely, the existence of an ambivalent, disinterested or malevolent creator. Just a good one.

 

[Davian]

I am here to explain that we cannot fully explain why things are the way they are.

I think you are here to explain that you cannot fully explain why things are the way they are.

Big difference.

 

[32k]

I'm confused. Are you saying that people never, ever feel socially obligated to thank someone for an action that they did?

Oh see I got confused too! I see now. Yes I would agree

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

Oh see I got confused too! I see now. Yes I would agree

So given this is what people ought to do, why don't they?

 

[32k]

I suppose it's because multiple ongoing ripple-effects are being caused everywhere. That being the case, one might have a greater impact on an individual than another, or perhaps one may arrive earlier to affect an individuals life than another.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

I suppose it's because multiple ongoing ripple-effects are being caused everywhere. That being the case, one might have a greater impact on an individual than another, or perhaps one may arrive earlier to affect an individuals life than another.

So then why talk about the concept of infinite punishment for "infinite" crime, when the "infinity" you're talking about peters out after a very definitively finite period of time?

 

[32k]

First of all that's not the case I was trying to make, i'm talking about the personal responsibility of the 'said' individual who committed the crime. Every negative effect caused by a single crime that I commit will be partially my responsibility that will likely be shared with other parties who were not involved in my crime. So if the number of negative impacts of that crime expands by a factor of 'x' each week while my personal responsibility for each subsequent event contracts by a factor of 'x' each week then the sum of it all is that my total amount of guilt remains constant indefinitely.

 

[OriginalOatmeal]

This violates so many logical principles I don't really know where to start.

It violates the logical principles of illogical humans.

 

[Elioenai26]

The heartless brutality of nature, and the suffering of almost all the creatures within it (of those who have developed the intelligence to suffer), makes it impossible for me to countenance the existence of a benevolent creator.

This in no way rules out, or even makes less likely, the existence of an ambivalent, disinterested or malevolent creator. Just a good one.

Have you read an of C.S. Lewis's works?

 

[Elioenai26]

Adam was crowned. Your argument actually supports the consequences and righteous decision God has already made.

I like the idea from this short story and the message that it conveys:

At the end of time, billions of people were scattered on a great plain before God's throne. Most shrank back from the brilliant light before them. But some groups near the front talked heatedly - not with cringing shame, but with belligerence.

"Can God judge us? How can he know about suffering?" Snapped a pert young brunette. He ripped open a sleeve to reveal a tattooed number from a Nazi Concentration Camp. "We endured terror ... beatings ... torture ... death!"

In another group a Negro boy lowered his collar. "What about this?" he demanded, showing an ugly rope burn. "Lynched for no crime but being black!"

In another crowd, a pregnant schoolgirl with sullen eyes. "Why should I suffer?" She murmured. "It wasn't my fault."

Far out across the plain were hundreds of such groups. Each had a complaint against God for the evil and suffering he had permitted in the world. How lucky God was to live in heaven where all was sweetness and light, where there was no weeping or fear, no hunger or hatred. What did God know of all that men had been forced to endure in this world? For God leads a pretty sheltered life, they said.

So each of these groups sent forth their leader, chosen because they had suffered the most. A Jew, a person from Hiroshima, a horribly deformed arthritic, and a thalidomide child.

In the centre of the plain they consulted with each other. At last they were ready to present their case. It was rather clever. Before God could be qualified to be their judge, he must endure what they had endured. Their decision was that God should be sentenced to live on earth - as a man!

Let him be born a Jew. Let the legitimacy of the birth be doubted.
Give him a work so difficult that even his family will think him out of his mind when he tries to do it.
Let him be betrayed by his closest friends.
Let him face false charges, be tried by a prejudiced jury and convicted by a cowardly judge.
Let him be tortured.
At the last, let him see what it means to be terribly alone.
Then let him die, and so that there can be no doubt that he died, let there be a great host of witnesses to verify it.

As each leader announced his portion of the sentence, loud murmurs of approval went up from the throng of people assembled. When the last had finished pronouncing sentence, there was a long silence. Nobody uttered another word. No one moved.

For suddenly all knew that God had already served his sentence.

This is brilliant, and until one begins to understand what God endured on our behalf, there will always be a tendency to minimize the work of Christ.

It is at the Cross that we see how much God loves us.

 

[Elioenai26]

False dichotomy. Saying these are the only options open to the Christian God is preposterous.

Claiming that these options were the only options is actually quite preposterous and pretentious. It is not as if you are omniscient, or omnibenevolent, or omnipotent, or omnipresent.

Since you are far from any of the above, any judgment you make towards the One who is, is at best, incomplete. You simply cannot see or know what God can do and because of that you are not qualified to sit in judgment of God. Saying what you are saying is akin to an ant crawling along an airport tarmac, and yelling up to the air traffic controller what should and should not be happening thirty thousand feet up in the air. You, like the ant, simply are not qualified.

On a related topic, how does this compare to God's treatment of Egypt? How is it okay when God kills children?

God killed the firstborn male in Egypt because:

1. He gave them life and can take it when and how He sees fit.
2. The Egyptians had been warned via 9 separate and obviously miraculous events that God had the power to do what He warned He would do.
3. The continual resistance of the Egyptian ruler to humble himself was the primary cause of the firstborn males being killed.
4. God received glory in the sight of a pagan nation when the Egyptians were compelled to release His people from bondage.

 

[Elioenai26]

That´s not my question. My question would be:
"Why did God - hypothetically assuming for a moment such exists - create a world with (the potential for) evil (i.e. stuff this God doesn´t like), in the first place?"

But he isn´t. If you want the opinion of the person in your scenario you would have to ask that person.

Genocide as an act to preserve/restore the "sanctity of life"? Sounds funny.

So apparently God wanted there to be good and evil. The strange thing, though, is that God is complaining when He gets what He wants.

You know, I have no problem accepting that the universe works the way it does. It´s not until I´m told that it´s the intended product of an omnibenevolent CreatorGod that I start asking "Why?".
It´s the prime example for my main issue with religion/theology: At best, it answers questions that wouldn´t be there without it, in the first place (and most of the time it does not even manage to do that).

Another point: You can, practically, have sound without silence (you just can´t have a concept of sound without having a concept of silence). Actually, we never encounter and have never encountered complete silence.

Lastly: Had God created the world without the possibility of the most extreme cases of "evil", concepts of "good/evil" would still be possible.

One would expect an omnipotent omniscient God to have other means of intervention than genocide to his disposal, and one would expect an omnibenevolent God to make use of them (instead of applying methods which he minself has decided to be "objectively evil").
Allegedly, God was capable of "hardening Pharao´s heart". It would have to be explained why "softening people´s hearts" is apparently not within his capabilities as a means of crisis management.

God is bound by His nature to create the best of all possible ways to the best of all possible worlds if He creates at all.

What we see currently is a world with free creatures who possess the ability to do good and evil. It is what sets us apart from all of God's creation and it is part of being God's image bearers here on earth.

It is good to be free. No one marches and shouts and protests saying: "Back to bondage, and Down with freedom!" No no no, we all want to be free. Being free is good and even if one were to protest against freedom, they would be using their freedom of speech to do so!

Being free means we can choose to love or hate, to heal or to wound, to comfort or criticize. We can love God, the locus and very source of all that is Good, or we can deny He exists, hate Him, whatever. We can love our fellow man and see Him as being fearfully and wonderfully made, or we can hate him and see him as nothing but an animal.

A free creature is capable of doing both good and evil, and many choose to do evil, hence the need for judgment on people groups who enjoyed burning their babies on fiery altars. I have no pity for any people group who would do such a thing in the name of worshiping a god. They were judged for their wickedness, and the children that died in that judgment, if any did die, then that was their salvation from a wicked and evil generation and they are at rest with the God of all glory.

If I thought as you and every other atheist thinks, I would despise God too. But you see, your understanding of God is so warped and skewed that you cannot see Him in the right light. What I see as the most loving and righteous, Holy, Source of all light, wisdom, knowledge, and love, you see as a genocidal tyrant.

You see God as a criminal sees a judge who deals sternly with criminals, I see God as one of the Judge's children. He is my father and I know how much He loves me as well as those whom He chastens and corrects. What you see as tyrant, I see as one who loved me so much that He died that I might live. He chastises me every day. He disciplines me with the rod of men because He delights in me the way a father delights in his son and wants only the best for him. God does not willingly afflict the sons of men.

I pray one day you all see Him as I do.

 

[Elioenai26]

What do I expect? Well according to the bible we are all gods children,

This is a common misconception. No where in the bible does it say that we are all God's children. One is a child of God by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. All other men and women abide under the wrath of God because they are sinful and inherently disobedient enemies of God.

it is the christian god who created evil, and it is this same capricious malevolent god who uses his followers to advocate this disgusting evil world concept.

This is also a misconception and is totally inaccurate. Evil is not something that is "created". Evil exists as a privation of something good. It exists as a lack in something else. Like rot in a tree, or rust in a car, or a moth eaten hole in a garment, evil can only exist as a lack or a privation in something which God created as good. Evil has no weight, or measure, or length. It exists only in something that would be otherwise good without it. Evil is ultimately a result of a rejection of that which is good and it began when Lucifer made the choice to leave his state and rebel against the Only Good. Men have been commiting the same rebellion ever since Adam's transgression.

 

[Elioenai26]

Really??? You can’t tell me that every single person who was slaughtered by Moses, Saul, & Joshua, were guilty of the crimes you are mentioning. Even the infant babies? C’mon! You know better than that. Didn’t Jesus say “let he who is without sin cast the first stone?” How many Israelites do you think were without sin? There is no justification for what those men did. IMO this is just another example of evil men committing evil acts and claiming they are doing the work of God. It happened back then and it continues to happen today.

K

How many children were recorded as being killed?

 

[Elioenai26]

So what is this God for, if not to stop evil?

I think the question you should be asking us, is why, in a godless universe, would there be an awareness of an objective realm of moral values and duties?

Can you provide us with a cogent answer to this question?

Why in a godless universe are things like genocide objectively evil?

 

[Davian]

That's alot of preaching you are doin' there, Elio.

I think the question you should be asking us, is why, in a godless universe, would there be an awareness of an objective realm of moral values and duties?

Can you provide us with a cogent answer to this question?

Why in a godless universe are things like genocide objectively evil?

Did you not like my previous responses to this subject?

If I point them out (again), will you (again) ignore them?

 

[32k]

This is a common misconception. No where in the bible does it say that we are all God's children.

Maybe not from the mouth of your God, but the words ARE there.

22 So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for

“‘In him we live and move and have our being’;
as even some of your own poets have said,

“‘For we are indeed his offspring.’
29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

 

[Elioenai26]

Maybe not from the mouth of your God, but the words ARE there.

I find it interesting that you use that quote. It is actually a quote from Cilician Stoic philosopher Aratus and was used by Paul because he knew his audience would understand what was signified by the phrase.

What is signified? Well just look at the B portion of v25: Speaking of God, he says:

he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,...


he then goes on to elaborate:

Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.

You see here, that Paul is referring to mankind in general as being created in the Image and Likeness of God which is exactly what the Genesis account states.


But nowhere, neither here, nor anywhere else, is a man or woman referred to as a Child of God outside of the context of an intimate, loving, saving relationship made possible by grace through faith in Christ for the remission of sins.