Why does God allow suffering? Bear in mind, those that don't need a perfect distraction, suffer less

[Freodin]

What is the standard based upon, if not on His judgement?

That is exactly the question.
If it was based only and exclusively on "His judgement"... than any possible universe would be the best. There is no other "need". There is no outside standard.

But you assume such a standard. Certain factors "need" to apply in order for God judge it as that, and these factors exist independently from this judgement.

 

[trophy33]

That is exactly the question.
If it was based only and exclusively on "His judgement"... than any possible universe would be the best. There is no other "need". There is no outside standard.

His judgement is not random, but based on His perfections.

 

[Freodin]

His judgement is not random, but based on His perfections.

That's just an evasion. A circular reasoning... God is perfect, because he's perfect. Not a good basis for any argument.

Let's say we were talking about short distance sprinters. Who is the "best" sprinter that you can imagine?

There is an independent standard for that: the one who runs the distances the fastest. Whatever your "judgement" or how "perfect" you are at judging... the standard is independent from the judge.


But if we were to apply your reasoning to this example, you could point at someone who runs the 100 meters in 6 hours and say: "This is the best sprinter!"
Why? Because this is the sprinter who is there, and thus they must be the best, because only the best would run, because the judge wouldn't allow anything else.

Anyone suggesting that perhaps a sprinter who does the 100 meters in... 5 hours... would be better is wrong, because the judge already send the best into the race, and everyone else would be worse, by the judge's perfect standard.

This isn't an argument. It's an evasion.

 

[trophy33]

That's just an evasion. A circular reasoning... God is perfect, because he's perfect. Not a good basis for any argument.

Let's say we were talking about short distance sprinters. Who is the "best" sprinter that you can imagine?

There is an independent standard for that: the one who runs the distances the fastest. Whatever your "judgement" or how "perfect" you are at judging... the standard is independent from the judge.


But if we were to apply your reasoning to this example, you could point at someone who runs the 100 meters in 6 hours and say: "This is the best sprinter!"
Why? Because this is the sprinter who is there, and thus they must be the best, because only the best would run, because the judge wouldn't allow anything else.

Anyone suggesting that perhaps a sprinter who does the 100 meters in... 5 hours... would be better is wrong, because the judge already send the best into the race, and everyone else would be worse, by the judge's perfect standard.

This isn't an argument. It's an evasion.

Judgement of any being is based on something, its not random. In humans it can be based on emotions, on logic etc.

The judgement of God is based on His perfections.

If you want to say that God does not have perfections, then we are not talking about the same definition of God. Its like saying that humans do not have emotions or logic.

 

[Freodin]

Judgement of any being is based on something, its not random. In humans it can be based on emotions, on logic etc.

The judgement of God is based on His perfections.

If you want to say that God does not have perfections, then we are not talking about the same definition of God. Its like saying that humans do not have emotions or logic.

Sorry, but that is still just an evasion.

There is no standard. You keep saying "perfections" (are there more than one?), but this doesn't mean anything.
You are just saying: "it is what it is because it is what it is". That may or may not be true... but it doesn't offer any basis for an argument. None at all.

And you might notice that the topic of this thread was a question. A question for a reason. And your reason is just a circle.

 

[trophy33]

Sorry, but that is still just an evasion.

There is no standard. You keep saying "perfections" (are there more than one?), but this doesn't mean anything.
You are just saying: "it is what it is because it is what it is". That may or may not be true... but it doesn't offer any basis for an argument. None at all.

And you might notice that the topic of this thread was a question. A question for a reason. And your reason is just a circle.

You saying its evasion does not make it so.

This is a Christian forum and therefore we are talking about the standard idea/definition of Christian God.
If you do not understand this idea/definition, then you are not in the position to debate why this God allows this or that. If you do not know what the perfections of God are, search them.

 

[Freodin]

You saying its evasion does not make it so.

This is a Christian forum and therefore we are talking about the standard idea/definition of Christian God.
If you do not accept this idea/definition, then you are not in the position to debate why this God allows this or that. If you do not know what the perfections of God are, search them.

I am pointing out that the "standard idea/definition of Christian God" is lacking in this regard.

I am completely aware that this is a fundamental flaw of all Christian theology, and that every attempt to mention that will result in the Christian getting evasive, angry and starting to blame their opponent for a perceived "lack" of... understanding, ability, whatever.

But it should be obvious to any rational thinker: if you use the desired conclusion of your argument as the premise... you can stop claiming that you are having a "debate" at all. You are just posturing.

And, interestingly, this isn't even a point based on the differences between your Christian and my atheist worldview. There is a perfect Christian response to this question... but for some reason, it never seems to come up.

 

[trophy33]

I am pointing out that the "standard idea/definition of Christian God" is lacking in this regard.

I am completely aware that this is a fundamental flaw of all Christian theology, and that every attempt to mention that will result in the Christian getting evasive, angry and starting to blame their opponent for a perceived "lack" of... understanding, ability, whatever.

But it should be obvious to any rational thinker: if you use the desired conclusion of your argument as the premise... you can stop claiming that you are having a "debate" at all. You are just posturing.

And, interestingly, this isn't even a point based on the differences between your Christian and my atheist worldview. There is a perfect Christian response to this question... but for some reason, it never seems to come up.

I do not see anything "lacking" and there is no "fundamental flaw". Its just your personal opinion.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hello,

There are so many ways to answer that God does everything He can to avoid or abate suffering, that it can seem like no one has a definitive answer. However, we can start to understand that God is in the midst of suffering. For example, that God is able to distract us from suffering. The point is not that God distracts all suffering, where-ever it occurs. But that God shares the burden of suffering, with those that have faith in Him.

This bearing our burdens, as Christ did (watching the Father), is something you can fight or go with. There is wisdom in this, as suffering teaches us to develop character. If we didn't ever suffer, there would be no difference between Heaven and Hell. What we know, is that we can be distracted in degrees. Less suffering, is partly a choice. Partly a commitment, but partly a choice. If we have the opportunity to learn this, our suffering will always be less. This is the promise of God.

What we need to learn, in the process of (mentally) processing this, is that the burden we place on God, directly affects our ability to deal with the suffering that is inevitable. Even if we stayed our entire lives in Heaven, simply leaving Heaven, would be Hell. God's promise is not that we will stay for ever in Heaven, but that we will be able to endure what we suffer because of Hell, whether by someone else's actions or our own. And this is the kicker, we can even avoid suffering while we are suffering.

Avoiding suffering while we are suffering, allows us to be distracted from our suffering, especially suffering we can do nothing about. This is the principle:It is in effect, being forgiving of what God can do in this life, for the sake of the next. If God suffers, surely suffering has come to an end - for those that have faith in God's suffering. It might be hard to have faith that suffering will come to an end - that is the price of innocence, in one sense - but if we have simpler standards, as to what we will expect from God - in the face of that suffering - we will be going a great long way to ending the suffering that is needless (that is, if you can understand it: an ignorance of God).

God will be there with you in the suffering, but don't wait for your expectations of God, to define your response to His love - whether you are suffering a little or a lot, humility (that God continues to have a plan, for your life) will go a long way to preventing you from adding to that suffering needlessly: that is, asking for a more perfect solution to your suffering than He is able, all His efforts not withstanding, to give you. God wants to give you an end to suffering, but that doesn't mean He can immediately get it to you - be humble about what He can give you, and you will suffer less.

I hope we can understand this, in a bond of fellowship.
I am not trying to diminish anyone's suffering (that is up to God, ultimately).

God bless.

Everyone one suffers in flesh even Jesus Christ of Nazareth, God in the flesh. When we are in our new incarnation we will suffer no more " every tear will be wiped away".
Blessings.

 

[trophy33]

Everyone one suffers in flesh even Jesus Christ of Nazareth, God in the flesh. When we are in our new incarnation we will suffer no more " every tear will be wiped away".
Blessings.

Why the tears, then?

 

[TedT]

Why does God allow suffering? Bear in mind, those that don't need a perfect distraction, suffer less

Suffering is not to distract anyone from anything but to focus HIS sinful sheep to come out from among the reprobate and to quit entertaining their unclean ideas!!

ALL suffering is for sin. The suffering of the reprobate demonic goats is a down payment so to speak of their eternal fate in hell. It has no rehabilitative aspect for them at all as it is merely justice served and a warning to the elect.

The disciplinary suffering of the elect sinful sheep IS rehabilitative, designed to perfectly train them to choose only righteousness, decision by decision, as Hebrews 12:5-11 instructs us.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Why the tears, then?

The flesh is weak.

 

[Larniavc]

As I already said, suffering happens because its a necessary part of the best possible universe.

Then God was constrained in his creation of reality? So the presence or absence of suffering was and is beyond his control?

 

[Larniavc]

God created the world “very good” but with full knowledge of its coming brokenness.

Then he made a mistake. He should have used more effort to push ‘very good’ up to ‘perfect’ levels.

The fact that he did not leaves only two options. He was constrained or chose include suffering. There are no other options.

Anf God can make a bone stronger without needing to break it.

 

[Freodin]

Anf God can make a bone stronger without needing to break it.

The problem of backwards reasoning.

Bones break. Therefore, the breaking of bones must be good and necessary, because else God would not have made it that way. Therefore, I will come up with a plausible reason why God did this. Therefore, this IS the reason why God did this.

The option of God doing it differently does not even occur, because it's obvious that God didn't do it differently.

A serious problem with this kind of reasoning is that it has to rely on perfect observations, has problems with admitting mistakes, and, most problematic, cannot account for things that are not or cannot be observed. Like: the future.

It basically breaks the whole Christian worldview in advance, because it can only rely on what God (allegedly) did... but not on what he will do.

 

[eleos1954]

Hello,

There are so many ways to answer that God does everything He can to avoid or abate suffering, that it can seem like no one has a definitive answer. However, we can start to understand that God is in the midst of suffering. For example, that God is able to distract us from suffering. The point is not that God distracts all suffering, where-ever it occurs. But that God shares the burden of suffering, with those that have faith in Him.

This bearing our burdens, as Christ did (watching the Father), is something you can fight or go with. There is wisdom in this, as suffering teaches us to develop character. If we didn't ever suffer, there would be no difference between Heaven and Hell. What we know, is that we can be distracted in degrees. Less suffering, is partly a choice. Partly a commitment, but partly a choice. If we have the opportunity to learn this, our suffering will always be less. This is the promise of God.

What we need to learn, in the process of (mentally) processing this, is that the burden we place on God, directly affects our ability to deal with the suffering that is inevitable. Even if we stayed our entire lives in Heaven, simply leaving Heaven, would be Hell. God's promise is not that we will stay for ever in Heaven, but that we will be able to endure what we suffer because of Hell, whether by someone else's actions or our own. And this is the kicker, we can even avoid suffering while we are suffering.

Avoiding suffering while we are suffering, allows us to be distracted from our suffering, especially suffering we can do nothing about. This is the principle:It is in effect, being forgiving of what God can do in this life, for the sake of the next. If God suffers, surely suffering has come to an end - for those that have faith in God's suffering. It might be hard to have faith that suffering will come to an end - that is the price of innocence, in one sense - but if we have simpler standards, as to what we will expect from God - in the face of that suffering - we will be going a great long way to ending the suffering that is needless (that is, if you can understand it: an ignorance of God).

God will be there with you in the suffering, but don't wait for your expectations of God, to define your response to His love - whether you are suffering a little or a lot, humility (that God continues to have a plan, for your life) will go a long way to preventing you from adding to that suffering needlessly: that is, asking for a more perfect solution to your suffering than He is able, all His efforts not withstanding, to give you. God wants to give you an end to suffering, but that doesn't mean He can immediately get it to you - be humble about what He can give you, and you will suffer less.

I hope we can understand this, in a bond of fellowship.
I am not trying to diminish anyone's suffering (that is up to God, ultimately).

God bless.

God does not cause us to suffer ... then who or what does?

Sadly, humans are often victimized by other imperfect humans. (Ecclesiastes 8:9) Additionally, we may face calamities because of “unexpected events”—that is, because of simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. (Ecclesiastes 9:11)

The Bible teaches that ultimately “the ruler of this world,” Satan the Devil, is responsible for human suffering, for “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (John 12:31; 1 John 5:19) It is Satan—not God—who causes people to suffer.

As long as there is sin the world there will be suffering ... however Jesus has overcome the world (it's not over yet) believers are just waiting for Him to come pick up the survivors and He will some day. AMEN!!!

John 16:33

I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

Romans 8:18

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

Take heart .... it's not over yet.

 

[timothyu]

God said you want to decide for yourself what is good and evil, then go live in the world of your making which leads to suffering, the result of gain at the expense of another. Serves you right. As a result you may learn that the ways of man are not the ways of the Kingdom and the sooner you reject them the better. Deal with it. Pass or fail. Life is short (and so is this world).

 

[trophy33]

Then God was constrained in his creation of reality? So the presence or absence of suffering was and is beyond his control?

These questions are nonsensical. Like asking if the rule that triangle has to have 3 sides is beyond God's control.

Things have some necessary properties to be the things they are, unless you want to trap yourself in logical paradoxes. And the necessary property of the best possible world is that it contains some suffering.

 

[Freodin]

Your questions are nonsensical. Like asking if the rule that triangle has to have 3 sides is beyond God's control.

Things have some necessary properties to be the things they are, unless you want to trap yourself in logical paradoxes. And the necessary property of the best possible world is that it contains some suffering.

That is a bold claim, and one that you don't have any backup for.

Why do triangles have to have three sides? Well, that one is easy. Triangles are defined as such.
A better question would be: why is the internal angular sum of plane triangles always equal to half a circle? (Commonly expressed as 180°)
That answer can be reached by applying the axioms of euclidian geometry... but this only answers the question within that system.
If you don't presume the existence and validity of the euclidian axioms, the answer does not apply. Is euclidian geometry one of God's "perfections"? Is spatial relationships part of his fundamental being... for an omnipresent existence outside of space and time?

But, yes, ok, these questions do have answers, within given limits. Limits that still can be questioned.


And now, please, explain to me why suffering is a necessary property of the best possible world?

 

[Blade]

Not sure what your are expecting here. Does not line up with scripture which is left out. Do we believe Yeshua came in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin was buried rose the 3rd day the only way to the Father? Isa 53.