Why do YEC Christians commonly challenge the theory of evolution, while...

[SPF]

your math equation should look like:

2 fish + Jesus = X, where X is undetermined number, which could be ANY number.

Well that doesn't make sense to have Jesus himself be in the math equation, Jesus isn't a number. I think what you mean is:

2 Fish + Y (# Of fish created by Jesus) = X

We can then say that the Y of fish created by Jesus is a number determined by Himself. And yes, it could be any number. so let's pick a few different numbers and see if we still manage to have a logically valid outcome!

2 Fish + 2,500 = 2,502 Yup, that works
2 Fish + 1,500 = 1,502 Still works!
2 Fish + 23,521 = 23,523 Works!

It seems that whatever we put in there will work. Jesus didn't do anything illogical or non-sensical. He did do something that by the natural laws of the universe would be impossible. But impossible and illogical should not be confused (which you have a bad habit of doing).

You can't assume Jesus will create 2,500 fish. Since Jesus did not stop creating, Christian math class would be full of uncertainty. Therefore, Christians revert to naturalism in their math class.

Again, God created the universe with laws. The physical world operates on its own, without intervention by God, naturally.

However, as God is the Creator, He has the capacity, as a MGB, thanks to the attribute of omnipotence, to do things that would seem impossible to us in a natural enviornment. Creating fish out of nothing is not something that would naturally happen. So we would classify that as a miracle.

But once again, no theologian has understood the attribute of omnipotence to include the illogical and non-sensical.

 

[BigV]

Well that doesn't make sense to have Jesus himself be in the math equation, Jesus isn't a number. I think what you mean is:

2 Fish + Y (# Of fish created by Jesus) = X

We can then say that the Y of fish created by Jesus is a number determined by Himself. And yes, it could be any number. so let's pick a few different numbers and see if we still manage to have a logically valid outcome!

See, you are getting it. Since Jesus holds everything together, there is no reason why 2 apples + 2 apples always equals to 4 apples. Since (+Y) is always there. Jesus is real and remains in charge of the Universe, is he not?

So, 2 apples +2 apples could equal 10,000 apples in 12 various baskets because there always exists (+Y) factor.

Again, God created the universe with laws. The physical world operates on its own, without intervention by God, naturally.

You are back to naturalism again. Can you, for the sake of consistency, make up your mind already? Who says Jesus/God doesn't intervene? The Bible says in him all things hold together! He sustains everything!

 

[BigV]

Can you create a universe then?

Wait a minute. God himself nowhere says that he created the universe. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Not the galaxies and the universe.

 

[SPF]

See, you are getting it. Since Jesus holds everything together, there is no reason why 2 apples + 2 apples always equals to 4 apples.

Apparently you haven't been following along very well. 2+2=4 and 2+2 will always equal 4. A quantity of 2 added to a quantity of 2 will always result in a quantity of 4. Not 3, not 5, not 10,000.

So, 2 apples +2 apples could equal 10,000 apples in 12 various baskets because there always exists (+Y) factor.

2 apples + 2 apples will always equal 4 apples.

The miracle that Jesus performed was a miracle of creating, as an omnipotent being, additional fish, ex nihilo. That was the miracle. I'm not sure why you can't seem to understand this.

You are back to naturalism again. Can you, for the sake of consistency, make up your mind already? Who says Jesus/God doesn't intervene? The Bible says in him all things hold together! He sustains everything!

Again, I'm not sure why you continue to be confused. I almost have to think that you're just joking at this point, desperately trying to find a way to save face.

God (if He exists), is the Creator of the universe. He created this universe that we live in, and it operates under what we can term as "natural laws". These are the laws that we are all subject to. I can't choose to fly if I want to. I can't choose to create something out of nothing. I am subject to living within the construct that God has created.

But God is the Creator! He's the author of this universe. And as such, He has the capacity to perform what we would consider impossible. This is different than performing something illogical.

God cannot create another eternal being.

God cannot draw a square-circle.

God (MGB) cannot create another being more powerful than Himself.

Those are illogical and non-sensical things that fall outside the attribute of omnipotence. You need to just do yourself a favor and stop the fallacious thinking and bring your categorical mistakes to a close.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Wait a minute. God himself nowhere says that he created the universe. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Not the galaxies and the universe.

You don't need to wait a minute... it is very simple. Heavens is basically everything you see when you look up. If you want specifics, the stars are created in Genesis 1:16-17.

 

[BigV]

You don't need to wait a minute... it is very simple. Heavens is basically everything you see when you look up. If you want specifics, the stars are created in Genesis 1:16-17.

You are not exactly right. If you read more carefully, you will find that the 'firmament' is actually called the heavens. The Sun, the Moon and the Stars were placed IN the firmament with water above the firmanent. This is basically an ancient sumeritan flat earth model, that has recently been picked up by zealous Bible literalists.
Reference:
The Flat-Earth Bible.

Now, we were previously talking about the universe. Universe, in my view, includes planets, such as Mars. Bible doesn't mention them, does it?

 

[BigV]

Apparently you haven't been following along very well. 2+2=4 and 2+2 will always equal 4. A quantity of 2 added to a quantity of 2 will always result in a quantity of 4. Not 3, not 5, not 10,000.

Are you seriously not getting my questions? The above ONLY works in naturalism.

In Christianity, you ALWAYS have (+Y).

In Christian math, 2+2 is INCOMPLETE equation, because you always have (+Y) which is Jesus.

The miracle that Jesus performed was a miracle of creating, as an omnipotent being, additional fish, ex nihilo. That was the miracle. I'm not sure why you can't seem to understand this.

Funny thing is, YEC want naturalists to understand miracles in biology, or (+Y), but you are very adamant in keeping (+Y) absent from all other disciplines.

Could you be more consistent please? Is this so difficult for you to understand and follow?

 

[SPF]

Are you seriously not getting my questions? The above ONLY works in naturalism.

Unfortunately, you're mistaken (again). Whether God exists or God does not exist, the quantity of 2 added to the quantity of 2 will always equal 4. God's existence does not cause that to change.

In Christianity, you ALWAYS have (+Y).

No, you only have +Y when a miracle takes place. And when a miracle takes place, it doesn't defy logic.

You continue to make the same fallacious categorical mistake. God is not an illogical, non-sensical Being.

God cannot draw a square-circle.

God cannot create another eternal being.

God cannot make 2+2=5

Those are illogical and non-sensical.

Omnipotence and miracles do not apply to that category. No theologian has ever understood them to, and I don't know why you keep wanting to assert that they should. I mean honestly, this is stuff I learned as a highschool senior in an introduction to logic class.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

You are not exactly right. If you read more carefully, you will find that the 'firmament' is actually called the heavens. The Sun, the Moon and the Stars were placed IN the firmament with water above the firmanent.

So the sun moon and stars were placed IN the heavens. Sounds good to me so far. I'm not sure what you are saying about water above the heavens though?

This is basically an ancient sumeritan flat earth model, that has recently been picked up by zealous Bible literalists.
Reference:
The Flat-Earth Bible.

https://lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

Well good for them, but I don't subscribe to that model, I prefer the Earth as a sphere model like the ancient Babylonians.

[QUOTE="BigV, post: 75007713, member: 209098"Now, we were previously talking about the universe. Universe, in my view, includes planets, such as Mars. Bible doesn't mention them, does it?[/QUOTE]

Technically it does, I think the reference to lights in the sky would constitute those planets we can see with the naked eye. But even if it doesn't does it matter. The Bible doesn't mention all of the planets around other stars... 'cos they are irrelevant to it.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

not challenging math or physics?

For example, lets assume there is Jesus/God, etc... Then Creationism could be right, however, 2+3= 5 could be wrong.

Because the miracle working Jesus could make 2+3=4,000 or maybe equal 400,000! Why not? Why must only the biology (and earth sciences when it pertains to dating methods) be challenged but no other challenges?

If I could only go back in time and attend a Christian school! I'd be their top student.

-teacher: "BigV, how much is 2+3"?
-BigV: "4,000"!
-teacher: "But last week you said it was 400,000!"
-BigV: "so what? Jesus is a miracle worker, he can do anything, he can make a snake talk, he can make a man walk on water without drowning and he can make 4,000 or 400,000 out of 2+3!

Someone raised a point that if 2+3=4000 were actually true, then Christ's miracle with the fish and bread wouldn't even be a miracle.

Then again, every Christian I know resists the use of the word "magic" when describing God. So there must at least in principle be some kind of scientific explanation for what God is doing when he does it. I mean, if it's not magic, then there is a rational explanation. Presumably, Christ just created fish ex nihilo. He didn't add two and three to get four thousand.

But creatio ex nihilo is magic. There is no rational explanation for how the process occurs. To create from nothing is to act upon nothing, which is to do nothing. To do nothing and then have a result come about is magic. "Abracadabra" is derived from Hebrew and Aramaic roots, meaning essentially "I create as I speak." When God "spoke the universe into existence" it was literally "abracadabra." It is magic, and there is no rational explanation.

As much as Christians hate the word "magic," creatio ex nihilo will remain so until they can show that 0+0+0+···=1.

I did find this though:

What do Christian fundamentalists have against set theory?

So there will always be some Christian somewhere railing against academics.

 

[SPF]

Someone raised a point that if 2+3=4000 were actually true, then Christ's miracle with the fish and bread wouldn't even be a miracle.

Then again, every Christian I know resists the use of the word "magic" when describing God. So there must at least in principle be some kind of scientific explanation for what God is doing when he does it. I mean, if it's not magic, then there is a rational explanation. Presumably, Christ just created fish ex nihilo. He didn't add two and three to get four thousand.

But creatio ex nihilo is magic. There is no rational explanation for how the process occurs. To create from nothing is to act upon nothing, which is to do nothing. To do nothing and then have a result come about is magic. "Abracadabra" is derived from Hebrew and Aramaic roots, meaning essentially "I create as I speak." When God "spoke the universe into existence" it was literally "abracadabra." It is magic, and there is no rational explanation.

As much as Christians hate the word "magic," creatio ex nihilo will remain so until they can show that 0+0+0+···=1.

I did find this though:

What do Christian fundamentalists have against set theory?

So there will always be some Christian somewhere railing against academics.

I'm curious Nihilist, how do you personally account for the existence of the universe itself? Do you hold that matter and energy has eternally existed?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I'm curious Nihilist, how do you personally account for the existence of the universe itself? Do you hold that matter and energy has eternally existed?

My position is that I don't know the answer and neither does anyone else. And anyone who says otherwise is deluding themselves.

History has shown that intuitive or common sense approaches to these types of questions fail spectacularly.

 

[SPF]

My position is that I don't know the answer and neither does anyone else. And anyone who says otherwise is deluding themselves.

History has shown that intuitive or common sense approaches to these types of questions fail spectacularly.

So you’re open to the possibility that it was God who created the universe?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

So you’re open to the possibility that it was God who created the universe?

Sure, provided you can explain to me how that works even in principle. Given unlimited power, I don't see how I could create a square circle or a one-ended stick. So given unlimited power, how does creatio ex nihilo work? You need to tell me what God acted on. Here are the choices and why they are unreasonable:

1. God spoke the universe into existence.
This is literally abracadabra. It is magic. It explains nothing.

2. God acted on nothing in order to create the universe.
To act on nothing is to do nothing. He isn't even using his unlimited power. And doing nothing produces no results.

3. God acted on himself in order to create the universe.
I disregard this as a Christian answer as it seems to be blasphemous. It would mean that the profane is divine. It would mean that we are all God.

4. God acted on the universe to create the universe.
Clearly circular reasoning.


Do you have another proposition, or can you explain why one of these is actually correct? Am I missing something?

 

[SPF]

Sure, provided you can explain to me how that works even in principle. Given unlimited power, I don't see how I could create a square circle or a one-ended stick. So given unlimited power, how does creatio ex nihilo work? You need to tell me what God acted on. Here are the choices and why they are unreasonable:

1. God spoke the universe into existence.
This is literally abracadabra. It is magic. It explains nothing.

2. God acted on nothing in order to create the universe.
To act on nothing is to do nothing. He isn't even using his unlimited power. And doing nothing produces no results.

3. God acted on himself in order to create the universe.
I disregard this as a Christian answer as it seems to be blasphemous. It would mean that the profane is divine. It would mean that we are all God.

4. God acted on the universe to create the universe.
Clearly circular reasoning.


Do you have another proposition, or can you explain why one of these is actually correct? Am I missing something?

God can’t draw a square-circle or do anything illogical.

Creating ex nihilo however, is not illogical, that falls under the capability of an omnipotent being.

So for creation you have 3 choices I suppose:

1. God has eternally existed and created the universe.

2. Matter has eternally existed and was able to aimlessly form itself into the universe.

3. Something spontaneously came into existence out of nothing at a specific point in time in the past (Big Bang out of nothing).

For me, I think it takes more faith to go with 2 or 3 than 1!

 

[Nihilist Virus]

God can’t draw a square-circle or do anything illogical.

Creating ex nihilo however, is not illogical, that falls under the capability of an omnipotent being.

So for creation you have 3 choices I suppose:

1. God has eternally existed and created the universe.

2. Matter has eternally existed and was able to aimlessly form itself into the universe.

3. Something spontaneously came into existence out of nothing at a specific point in time in the past (Big Bang out of nothing).

For me, I think it takes more faith to go with 2 or 3 than 1!

You have completely ignored my points and essentially given me a Frank Turek copy/paste.

"Creating ex nihilo however, is not illogical, that falls under the capability of an omnipotent being."

Asserting the point in question. I have refuted it already.

 

[SPF]

You have completely ignored my points and essentially given me a Frank Turek copy/paste.

"Creating ex nihilo however, is not illogical, that falls under the capability of an omnipotent being."

Asserting the point in question. I have refuted it already.

I corrected your misinformed position that creating ex nihilo is irrational or “magic” and provided for you the three actual options for the universes beginning.

I think that furthered the conversation quite well.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I corrected your misinformed position that creating ex nihilo is irrational or “magic” and provided for you the three actual options for the universes beginning.

I think that furthered the conversation quite well.

No. You didn't correct anything. You merely asserted the opposite. To correct is to say why I'm wrong. You made no attempt to even do so. I don't think I will learn anything from participating in this conversation. Goodbye!

 

[SPF]

No. You didn't correct anything. You merely asserted the opposite. To correct is to say why I'm wrong. You made no attempt to even do so. I don't think I will learn anything from participating in this conversation. Goodbye!

Actually, the burden of proof would rest with your assertion that creating ex nihilo is illogical.

Making 2+2=5 is non-sensical, having the power to create something out of nothing is not. Creating ex nihilo is something an omnipotent being could do.

I haven’t seen you say anything to contradict the hundreds of years of philosophers that disagree with you.

 

[BigV]

No, you only have +Y when a miracle takes place. And when a miracle takes place, it doesn't defy logic.

God cannot make 2+2=5

No, you always have +Y because Jesus is a real and existing being that sustains and holds everything. He is answering prayers as we speak. Giving people cures from cancers, helping people find parking spaces and actively working against COVID19 for those deemed worthy of a healing while punishing sinners.

Come on, +Y is a sovereign being, he doesn't need to answer to you and me. And he is not predictable!

Therefore, 2+2 could equal 5, because, again, +Y is the unknown factor which is always there.

Look, you are strangely preoccupied with the HOW when it comes to math, when YECs, and I'm repeating myself for the umteenth time, are perfectly content with leaving +Y " as is" in biology, without any need for the HOW.

For example, how did all of the life forms start to exist?
YEC answer? +Y

How can the earth be only 10,000-15,000 years old?
YEC answer? +Y

So why not carry the same reasoning forward to math and other sciences?

2+2 = 5 because there is always +Y.