Why do YEC Christians commonly challenge the theory of evolution, while...

[Ophiolite]

As opposed to atheists who don't automatically reject anything a YEC says....

Did I claim otherwise? I think your response rather confirms my suggestion of knee-jerk reactions.

 

[BigV]

Just to be clear this would not be the equation used. Try this instead:

2 apples + 5 apples + God's miracle = however many apples are necessary.

Now it could be taught in maths, though I doubt it will as it is not all that helpful.

So, now you are coming around.

Since God is an independent entity, his miracle is unpredictable. He can make 2 apples + 5 apples = 1,000,000 apples OR make it zero apples.

And yet, Christians are content with pure naturalism in math, but insist on +God's miracle in biology, especially when discussing evolution.

Why the inconsistency?

 

[SPF]

Since God is an independent entity, his miracle is unpredictable. He can make 2 apples + 5 apples = 1,000,000 apples OR make it zero apples.

You're not properly understanding the miracle. The miracle was that Jesus took a basket that had two fish and 5 loaves and somehow managed to feed 5,000 people with it. The how in which Jesus performed this miracle would seem to be that he created ex nihilo additional fish and loaves to feed the people.

Thus, what we have is a miracle and testimony to the Divinity of Christ as He created food ex nihilo.

Again, one of the attributes of a Maximally Great Being is omnipotence. This is how God created the universe, He did it ex nihilo.

There is nothing illogical about that.

And yet, Christians are content with pure naturalism in math, but insist on +God's miracle in biology, especially when discussing evolution.

And you continue to not recognize what a categorical mistake is.

If God exists, then as a MGB, He possesses the attribute of omnipotence. This allows God to do all things possible. Thus, He can create ex nihilo, He can defy gravity, He can basically do anything you see a Marvel super hero do. But just like you won't see any Marvel super hero draw a square circle, omnipotence does not include the non-sensical and illogical.

I think perhaps you're just using the term "logical" too commonly. It sounds more like you're confusing the term illogical with impossible.

For example, if God did not exist, and naturalism was the correct worldview to hold, then miracles would be impossible, though still not illogical.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

My observation is that, in many cases, the mockery kicks in after the YEC has rejected the argument without reason and ignored the evidence without justification, and quite often introduced their own attempts at mockery with distorted strawman attacks.
I can agree with your point, but suggest a gentle suggestion by you, to YECs, that they approach discussions on evolution with a mind at least slightly ajar, would be welcome and have a much larger impact than any argument 'evolutionists' might provide. YEC's seem to automatically reject anything we might say.

I've been there too. I was an open-minded YEC for a very short while, which is why I think they remain close-minded. It's a shame. However I think the answer is always going to be reasonableness, not mockery. I watch debates and laugh at the mockery, but if you take the time to study, the ones who mock rarely come up with anything concrete to support their ideas...

The number of times as a Christian I've come up against such mockery which when questioned cannot give any reasons (let alone good ones), it is no wonder I'm still a Christian.

And to be clear within Christian circles, the cry of 'heresy' has a similar response.

The thing to be clear is if you don't like the other side doing something then why do it yourself.

Of course I do like a bit of sarcasm now and then and sometimes humour has its benefits. But unless it is backed up with a good argument, it's going nowhere.

Which is where BigV's arguments seem to be heading. I don't think that he knows whether he wants to argue against YEC or Christianity in general and the continued mockery makes that clearer.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

So, now you are coming around.

Since God is an independent entity, his miracle is unpredictable. He can make 2 apples + 5 apples = 1,000,000 apples OR make it zero apples.

And yet, Christians are content with pure naturalism in math, but insist on +God's miracle in biology, especially when discussing evolution.

Why the inconsistency?

To be clear it is not Christians who insist on God's miracle in biology. It is just a subset of them.

The only schools I know in the UK that teach Creationism in Biology also teach Evolution in the same lessons.

On top of that it is not only Christians who are opposed to Darwinian Evolution, e.g. Berlinski who, if memory serves, cites some disturbing reports about anyone in the scientific community that expresses issues with Darwinism.

Maths on the other hand becomes meaningless if you insert unknown quantities into equations. An old programming adage is GIGO or garbage in/garbage out. Teach the basics and the exceptions are just that. If you teach the exceptions, then nobody will know they are exceptions, nor will they be able to tell what the norm is.

Mathematics also, for the most part is the only science that actually has proof. Other sciences, where they are not using mathematics rely on things like modelling and falsification. They are reasoned, not proven.

And by the time you get to higher level mathematics you have already dealt with a lot of unnatural ideas (abstract?) which you take for granted. E.g. complex numbers, which cannot possibly exist and yet are routinely used in engineering.

 

[Ophiolite]

The thing to be clear is if you don't like the other side doing something then why do it yourself.

There is a simple answer to that: frustration. There are countless examples on CF wherein:

• YECs attack a strawman version of evolution, then refuse to accept the correction
• YECc demand evidence then reject it outright
• YECs demand evidence then, when evidence is offered, raise a different objection
• YECs repeat the same actions in thread after thread, sometimes many times in the same thread

It is difficult to view such actions as anything other than a lack of integrity or a lack of intellect. The latter is understandable, though sad; the former is especially disappointing from a Christian.

Of course I do like a bit of sarcasm now and then and sometimes humour has its benefits. But unless it is backed up with a good argument, it's going nowhere.

A failing that can be properly levelled at some evolutionists on some occasions is that they jump immediately on a new YEC post, anticipating what is likely to follow, rather than giving them a chance. This, I think, is just frustration and a pessimism born out of bitter experience.
That is not an attempt to justify it, but an explanation of why it occurs.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

It is difficult to view such actions as anything other than a lack of integrity or a lack of intellect. The latter is understandable, though sad; the former is especially disappointing from a Christian.

I think it can be about lacking wisdom as well. Intelligent people are not without bias and will do stupid things (take a look at who we vote for!).

The problem for YEC is that they often invest so much in it that they cannot afford to let it go. YEC somehow think that undermining creationism undermines their faith. That is sad for me because as Christian I would say we are saved by faith in Jesus, not by our faith in YEC.

Also the essential problem is that dates come for YEC come from a misreading of the Bible (Ussher's dating at best could be said to be the minimum age of he Earth, which is supported by archaeological records, but not the actual age).

 

[BigV]

If God exists, then as a MGB, He possesses the attribute of omnipotence. This allows God to do all things possible. Thus, He can create ex nihilo, He can defy gravity, He can basically do anything you see a Marvel super hero do. But just like you won't see any Marvel super hero draw a square circle, omnipotence does not include the non-sensical and illogical.

IF God exists, he does what he wants when he wants. Imagine that you have superpowers. Now, a question of "Can a human fly like a bird" gets answered with a "YES" because SPF, who is a human with superpowers can fly like a bird.

Of course, we all understand (hopefully) that superpowers are a figment of people's imagination. It's not real.

However, Christians (and other religious) believe that superpowers are NOT fictional. Their God has them. So Christians live in a reality (imagined to them) where 2+5 = 1,000,000 if needed. Where talking snakes exist and where fire from heaven happen, where global flood can exist with water appearing out of only God knows where, flooding the entire planet and then going away to only God knows where.

Naturalists have no explanations for the above, as we don't believe these things are factual. However, Christians (majority of them) believe these things to be historical.

All I'm saying is that you be consistent!

As a bonus, there is a thread started by a believer

Let's Create a Universe!

The first would be this: God not only creates the universe, he sustains it. In other words, we would cease to exist if God were not spinning every electron, causing every quark to pop out of the quantum foam, etc. Some verses support this notion, such as Hebrews 3:1, Colossians 1:17, Acts 17:28, etc.

This is even more of a reason to NOT think that 2+2 equals to 4!

If God is the one who is making things work, then there is an even bigger reason to inject miracles into math and physics.

 

[SPF]

IF God exists, he does what he wants when he wants. Imagine that you have superpowers. Now, a question of "Can a human fly like a bird" gets answered with a "YES" because SPF, who is a human with superpowers can fly like a bird.

Of course, we all understand (hopefully) that superpowers are a figment of people's imagination. It's not real.

However, Christians (and other religious) believe that superpowers are NOT fictional. Their God has them. So Christians live in a reality (imagined to them) where 2+5 = 1,000,000 if needed. Where talking snakes exist and where fire from heaven happen, where global flood can exist with water appearing out of only God knows where, flooding the entire planet and then going away to only God knows where.

Naturalists have no explanations for the above, as we don't believe these things are factual. However, Christians (majority of them) believe these things to be historical.

All I'm saying is that you be consistent!

I haven't seen any inconsistency yet. All I've seen from you is a continual use of fallacious reasoning (categorical mistakes), and an inability to understand the difference between terms such as illogical and impossible.

This isn't really all that complicated.

If God exists and created the universe, then He has the capacity to create ex nihilo, and part of being omnipotent would mean that it wouldn't be difficult for Him to allow created beings to operate outside the natural laws of the universe that He created.

However, what omnipotence does not include is the capacity and ability to perform the non-sensical, such as drawing a square circle.

Therefore, if God exists, miracles are possible.

If God does not exist, and the universe magically came into existence out of nothing (takes more faith to believe something can come from nothing, imo), and naturalism accurately describes how the world operates, then miracles are impossible.

 

[BigV]

All I've seen from you is a continual use of fallacious reasoning (categorical mistakes), and an inability to understand the difference between terms such as illogical and impossible.

This isn't really all that complicated.

seems to me you are equating square circle (illogical) with 2+2 equals 1,000,000 (a miracle).

 

[BigV]

If God does not exist, and the universe magically came into existence out of nothing (takes more faith to believe something can come from nothing, imo), and naturalism accurately describes how the world operates, then miracles are impossible.

Well, at least there’s evidence for the Universe being there.

 

[SPF]

seems to me you are equating square circle (illogical) with 2+2 equals 1,000,000 (a miracle).

The quantity of 2 plus the quantity of 2 will always equal the quantity of 4.

Not even God can make the quantity of 2 plus the quantity of 2 equal anything other than the quantity of 4.

That is illogical and falls outside of the category of doing all possible things which is what the attribute of omnipotence refers to.

There are lots of things God cannot do, for they are illogical like 2+2=5 and non-sensical.

God cannot create another eternal being.

God cannot draw a square-circle.

Can God, as a MGB, create a more powerful being?

What you’re asserting that God ought to be able to make 2+2=5 is illogical and you won’t find anyone agreeing with you.

There comes a point where you need to just concede that you were mistake . It’s OK to do that every once in awhile.

Well, at least there’s evidence for the Universe being there.

Yet no evidence for something coming into existence out of nothing. If at any time there existed nothing, then today there would still be... nothing.

 

[thomas_t]

not challenging math or physics?

the Theory of Evolution, as I see it, is a bit rude against God claiming that every living being arose having been subjected to the same mechanisms of speciation. Whether you have a plant or a man, it's always the same.
Bible teaches that God's ways of creating keep changing:
The plants were called into existence, the animals were made, man was (seperately) formed. Different verbs indicate different mechanisms.
This implies a more active role of God than the Theory of Evolution permits him to have occupied.

It's like being invited to a dinner party saying "oh, all of this evolved into existence, how nice!" No. The host prepared it and should be thanked for it accordingly, I think.

 

[BigV]

The quantity of 2 plus the quantity of 2 will always equal the quantity of 4.

Not even God can make the quantity of 2 plus the quantity of 2 equal anything other than the quantity of 4.

i get the feeling you’re either ignoring or not understanding my example of miracle math. Although it could be a case of cognitive dissonance as Christians typically only see miracles in history and biology.

Let me repeat the example of Jesus feeding 5,000.

Where 2 fish plus 5 loaves of bread equals 5,000 men fed plus 12 full baskets of food remaining!

This is an example where division results in a higher quantity than naturalist math allows.

Funny how your miracle working God has so many limitations.

 

[SPF]

i get the feeling you’re either ignoring or not understanding my example of miracle math. Although it could be a case of cognitive dissonance as Christians typically only see miracles in history and biology.

Let me repeat the example of Jesus feeding 5,000.

Where 2 fish plus 5 loaves of bread equals 5,000 men fed plus 12 full baskets of food remaining!

This is an example where division results in a higher quantity than naturalist math allows.

You're not properly understanding the miracle. The miracle was that Jesus took a basket that had two fish and 5 loaves and somehow managed to feed 5,000 people with it. The how in which Jesus performed this miracle would seem to be that he created ex nihilo additional fish and loaves to feed the people.

Thus, what we have is a miracle and testimony to the Divinity of Christ as He created food ex nihilo.

Again, one of the attributes of a Maximally Great Being is omnipotence. This is how God created the universe, He did it ex nihilo.

2 fish did not feed the 5,000 - multiple hundreds of fish fed the 5,000 because the miracle was that Jesus, acting out of His Divine nature, created additional fish ex nihilo.

There is nothing illogical about that.

Funny how your miracle working God has so many limitations.

God, if He exists is a Maximally Great Being (MGB). God would have the attribute of omnipotence as an MGB. But omnipotence does not include (and has never been understood to include) the ability to perform illogical, non-sensical actions.

You probably should move on to one of your other lines of attack against Christians, this one is failing.

 

[SPF]

Just to further drive home the point (for the 4th or 5th time), if you wanted to put this particular miracle into a math equation, it would probably look like this:

2 Fish + 2,500 Fish Jesus Created = 2,502 Total Fish.

 

[Qwertyui0p]

not challenging math or physics?

For example, lets assume there is Jesus/God, etc... Then Creationism could be right, however, 2+3= 5 could be wrong.

Because the miracle working Jesus could make 2+3=4,000 or maybe equal 400,000! Why not? Why must only the biology (and earth sciences when it pertains to dating methods) be challenged but no other challenges?

If I could only go back in time and attend a Christian school! I'd be their top student.

-teacher: "BigV, how much is 2+3"?
-BigV: "4,000"!
-teacher: "But last week you said it was 400,000!"
-BigV: "so what? Jesus is a miracle worker, he can do anything, he can make a snake talk, he can make a man walk on water without drowning and he can make 4,000 or 400,000 out of 2+3!

I suggest you read this article: If God can do anything, then can He make a being more powerful than Himself? (Omnipotence) - creation.com

 

[BigV]

Just to further drive home the point (for the 4th or 5th time), if you wanted to put this particular miracle into a math equation, it would probably look like this:

2 Fish + 2,500 Fish Jesus Created = 2,502 Total Fish.

Jesus is unpredictable entity, so your math equation should look like Jesus:

2 fish + Jesus = X, where X is undetermined number, which could be ANY number.

You can't assume Jesus will create 2,500 fish. Since Jesus did not stop creating, Christian math class would be full of uncertainty. Therefore, Christians revert to naturalism in their math class.

 

[BigV]

I suggest you read this article: If God can do anything, then can He make a being more powerful than Himself? (Omnipotence) - creation.com

I'm not sure why Christians continue to call God - "omnipotent" when, clearly, God cannot do many things, even those that don't require challenging logic.

Can God save humanity from his own wrath without killing his own son, Jesus? Apparently, the answer is NO. Can God save all humanity if he wanted to? The answer, again, is NO! Perhaps I should be calling myself omnipotent and then use Christian excuses for why I can't do many things, while being omnipotent?

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

I'm not sure why Christians continue to call God - "omnipotent" when, clearly, God cannot do many things, even those that don't require challenging logic.

Can God save humanity from his own wrath without killing his own son, Jesus? Apparently, the answer is NO. Can God save all humanity if he wanted to? The answer, again, is NO! Perhaps I should be calling myself omnipotent and then use Christian excuses for why I can't do many things, while being omnipotent?

Can you create a universe then?