Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[EddardStark]

1Jn 5:16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death (Venial), let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death (Venial). There is a sin unto death (Mortal). For that I say not that any man ask. 17 All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death (Mortal)..

You pulled that interpretation out of the body part you sit on, not the text itself.

 

[squint]

You pulled that interpretation out of the body part you sit on, not the text itself.

That's a little unkind. The RCC and probably the orthodox in general treat these matters thusly:

“The Catholic Church divides sin into two categories: venial sins, in which guilt is relatively minor, and the more severe mortal sins. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, a mortal or deadly sin is believed to destroy the life of grace and charity within a person and thus creates the threat of eternal damnation.

The seven deadly sins are usually given as wrath, avarice, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony. Each is a form of Idolatry-of-Self wherein the subjective reigns over the objective.”

Yet they fail to see that by taking into themselves the threat of eternal torture in fire to another sinner, they have in fact themselves been enveloped by the 'sin unto death' themselves, in their own hearts.

That is the sin unto death. You can not hate another believer any more than that nor can a person bring any greater hatred INTO themselves than that.

And there they are SEARED. There they are LOCKED.

They have fallen prey to the wicked judge themselves. It has created quite a mess within christianity.

At the basis of every form of christian sectarianism, there is a false authority of men (or women) who have used this form of extortion upon their flocks to gather them and corral them by threats and coercions against their souls.

It's the deepest form of fear mongering there is and more deadly than any of the famous deadly seven.

I would never say that such are eternally lost for 2 reasons. One, it is bad bad bad for ones internals to convey such a thing to another believer. And 2, God is just Bigger than that and Able to save them anyway, even though they may part here with brief retrospect that maybe they could have seen better, that God in Christ IS Bigger than all of that. An opps moment, however, fleeting.

s

 

[NorrinRadd]

You pulled that interpretation out of the body part you sit on, not the text itself.

I don't know about the old "venial" and "mortal" labels, but in terms of the meaning of the passage, I tend to agree with Craig Keener, who generally seems to agree with Erose:

Given the use of “life” for eternal life and “death” for its opposite in this epistle, a “sin unto death ” (KJV) would seem to be a sin leading one away from eternal life (cf. Gen 2:17; 3:24). The two sins John would likely have in mind would be hating the brothers and sisters (the secessionists’ rejection of the Christian community) and failing to believe in Jesus rightly (their false doctrine about his identity as the divine Lord and Christ in the flesh)
​

 

[BobRyan]

In Matt 18 even a determined spirit of unforgiveness will do it.

In Romans 11 - we see that a determined effort towards unbelief is the same as ...

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

I actually love how Paul sets up Romans 11, showing that Israel was blinded and deafened by a spirit of stupor

s

And of course as we all know - the unbelieving Jews of Paul's day -- did not include Paul or the Apostles - or the NT Jerusalem church..

And of course as we all know - many of the unbelieving Jews of Paul's day - died -- lost ... without ever accepting the Gospel.

And of course Paul makes the case in Romans 11 that this same problem awaits the saved saint should they ever turn from their perseverance and faithfulness to God.

Hence the text never commented upon / resoveld /solved by the OSAS doctrine.

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
===========================

And as we all know - there no limit to the bad doctrine that can be had if the texts that refute it are simply ignored.in Christ,

Bob

 

[squint]

And of course as we all know - the unbelieving Jews of Paul's day -- did not include Paul or the Apostles - or the NT Jerusalem church..

In Romans 11 Paul specifically shows us that the Jews were blinded by the spirit of stupor that would not allow them to see or hear precisely for US.

Those who do not SEE THIS may themselves be treated to that same spirit of stupor, per Paul's precise warnings in Romans 11. This still does not mean those thusly blinded will not be saved, just as Paul shows for the blinded JEWS in Romans 11.

We have only ONE measure to blinded Jews as believers and that is MERCY, not condemnation. Those who condemn them have in fact been blinded themselves, by God placing upon them the spirit of stupor, JUST as He did to the JEWS.

And of course as we all know - many of the unbelieving Jews of Paul's day - died -- lost ... without ever accepting the Gospel.

I'd suggest a closer read of vs. 25-32. But I also understand what has happened to the 'believers' who can not see the fact of it. That 'spirit' can be impenetrable.

And only GOD in Christ can remove it.

s

 

[Erose]

You pulled that interpretation out of the body part you sit on, not the text itself.

That is the text, except what is in parenthesis, which all I added there is our terms we use for sin that leads to death (mortal sin), and those that do not lead to death (Venial sin).

 

[BobRyan]

OSAS fails in these examples - because the one fully forgiven (Matt 18) and so then the one who "stands by your faith" are at risk of forgiveness revoked (Matt 18) and at risk of falling into the condition of the unsaved Jews of Paul's day.

The fact that God is able to graft the fallen back in "if they do not continue in unbelief" only further sinks the cases made by OSAS because it results in saved, lost,... saved again etc for the few that choose that route.

In Matt 18 even a determined spirit of unforgiveness will do it.

In Romans 11 - we see that a determined effort towards unbelief is the same as ...

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.



And of course as we all know - the unbelieving Jews of Paul's day -- did not include Paul or the Apostles - or the NT Jerusalem church..

And of course as we all know - many of the unbelieving Jews of Paul's day - died -- lost ... without ever accepting the Gospel.

And of course Paul makes the case in Romans 11 that this same problem awaits the saved saint should they ever turn from their perseverance and faithfulness to God.

Hence the text never commented upon / resoveld /solved by the OSAS doctrine.

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
===========================

And as we all know - there is no limit to the bad doctrine that can be had if the texts that refute it are simply ignored.

 

[If Not For Grace]

Some believe that any "gift" can be rejected at any time by the receiver.

 

[Erose]

Some believe that any "gift" can be rejected at any time by the receiver.

It is either that or we are made to be slaves of God; and no body has even attempted to answer a simple question I proposed, which is why does God need slaves?

 

[Water Cross]

More like, why does the only source for all that exists need to be praised as such? Or else he'll let "you" die and suffer for eternity for not paying him homage.

I think the salvation paradigm is taken far too literally. When it was meant to be a metaphor for uniting back with the source from whence one can never be separated.
But very often people are taught to believe salvation is like a trinket. Someone gives it to them and at their discretion they can snatch it away. Meaning it was never a true gift in the first place since the condition for keeping the trinket was adhering to the right behavior the giver prescribed beforehand.

 

[squint]

Some believe that any "gift" can be rejected at any time by the receiver.

Some believe the Giver hid it so well that the majority of the intended receivers could never locate it.

 

[Erose]

Yet they fail to see that by taking into themselves the threat of eternal torture in fire to another sinner, they have in fact themselves been enveloped by the 'sin unto death' themselves, in their own hearts.

That is the sin unto death. You can not hate another believer any more than that nor can a person bring any greater hatred INTO themselves than that.

And there they are SEARED. There they are LOCKED.

They have fallen prey to the wicked judge themselves. It has created quite a mess within christianity.

At the basis of every form of christian sectarianism, there is a false authority of men (or women) who have used this form of extortion upon their flocks to gather them and corral them by threats and coercions against their souls.

It's the deepest form of fear mongering there is and more deadly than any of the famous deadly seven.

I would never say that such are eternally lost for 2 reasons. One, it is bad bad bad for ones internals to convey such a thing to another believer. And 2, God is just Bigger than that and Able to save them anyway, even though they may part here with brief retrospect that maybe they could have seen better, that God in Christ IS Bigger than all of that. An opps moment, however, fleeting.

s

absolutely none of this part of you post makes any sense whatsoever. So in your world we either send a kid that stoled a pack of bubblegum to jail for 20 years, if he doesn't satisfy x; or let a spree killer go free, if he satisfies x. That is quite frankly a to posey turfy world you live in.

I will just have to let St. Paul speak for me for he does so more eligant than I ever could: Gal 5: 13 As for you, brethren, you were called to freedom! Only, do not use your freedom to satisfy the flesh, but through love, become each other’s bondservants
14 because the whole law is fulfilled in one message, which is this one, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
15 But if you bite and devour each other, be careful that you do not end up in mutual destruction.
16 I say this: walk by the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 What the {fallen} flesh desires is against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh! And these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you desire.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious. They are: adultery, sexual immorality, impurity, lust,
20 idolatry, the practice of magic, hatred, strife, selfish ambitions, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies,
21 envies, murders, excess drinking, orgies, and similar things. About these, I warn you, as I have done in the past: those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[squint]

absolutely none of this part of you post makes any sense whatsoever.

Think about it this way. As you judge, so you will be judged.

Now some will read that and shy away instantly from condemning another believer, fallen or not. And some will condemn that sin of unbelief and think they are immune, but they seem to forget that they too are sinners.

Does that make it simpler for you?

People who judge do themselves get taken in judgment. See Romans 2:1 for a great example.

So in your world we either send a kid that stoled a pack of bubblegum to jail for 20 years, if he doesn't satisfy x; or let a spree killer go free, if he satisfies x. That is quite frankly a to posey turfy world you live in.

We already know your sect has the deadly 7 sins or some may have the dirty dozen sins or whatever.

The fact of sin will remain that we are all sinners and zero are sinless. If you are taught to believe that you are less the sinner, that is your pleasure.

Jesus said just calling someone a fool can put one into the threat of hell themselves.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Does that seem fair to you?

I will just have to let St. Paul speak for me for he does so more eligant than I ever could: Gal 5: 13 As for you, brethren, you were called to freedom! Only, do not use your freedom to satisfy the flesh, but through love, become each other’s bondservants
14 because the whole law is fulfilled in one message, which is this one, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
15 But if you bite and devour each other, be careful that you do not end up in mutual destruction.
16 I say this: walk by the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 What the {fallen} flesh desires is against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh! And these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you desire.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious. They are: adultery, sexual immorality, impurity, lust,
20 idolatry, the practice of magic, hatred, strife, selfish ambitions, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies,
21 envies, murders, excess drinking, orgies, and similar things. About these, I warn you, as I have done in the past: those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

You can site any given scripture set to anyone here and none will deny them. I certainly don't.

What we take away from them obviously varies greatly.

I'm in the "judge not lest you be judged" and "condemn not" camp in case you didn't notice.

Some leap into that headlong, forgetting their own status as sinners.

s

 

[Erose]

More like, why does the only source for all that exists need to be praised as such? Or else he'll let "you" die and suffer for eternity for not paying him homage.

I think the salvation paradigm is taken far too literally. When it was meant to be a metaphor for uniting back with the source from whence one can never be separated.
But very often people are taught to believe salvation is like a trinket. Someone gives it to them and at their discretion they can snatch it away. Meaning it was never a true gift in the first place since the condition for keeping the trinket was adhering to the right behavior the giver prescribed beforehand.

Why do you think that the Commandments are a burden? The reality is that they are quite the opposite. Their intent was never to be a burden, but rather to liberate us. Our natural state is sinlessness. If Adam and Eve never fell, they would have been without sin, which is the natural state of humanity.

When I became serious about my faith and began to strive to be perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect, I have never felt so free and liberated and happy. The happiest people are those who keep the Commandments and the saddest of folks are those chained to sin. The intent of the Commandments were to help us break those chains, and become truly free.

The problem with the Jews is they forgot the most important part of the Commandments which is love, and trying to keep the Commandments without love is burdensome, for the intent is false. Christ's teaching corrected that false idea by emphasizing the Commandments are truly the love of God and neighbor. Only people who do not have true love of God and neighbor find the Commandments burdensome; while those who truly Love God and neighbor find them liberating.

The fact is the Commandments are not chains, rather they are hammers and chisels to break the true chains of sin.

 

[Erose]

Think about it this way. As you judge, so you will be judged.

Now some will read that and shy away instantly from condemning another believer, fallen or not. And some will condemn that sin of unbelief and think they are immune, but they seem to forget that they too are sinners.

Does that make it simpler for you?

No. You keep confusing things you should be doing. You are equating sin to the sinner, I.e. Identifying sin with the one who sins, for some weird strange reason, that I haven't figured out yet. Obviously that isn't Biblical. From your understanding I guess you assume that Jesus advocated the sin of adultery because He didn't judge the adulterous woman. But you forget what He said afterwards, your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more. Don't forget the sin no more part that is important.

People who judge do themselves get taken in judgment. See Romans 2:1 for a great example.

We already know your sect has the deadly 7 sins or some may have the dirty dozen sins or whatever.

The fact of sin will remain that we are all sinners and zero are sinless. If you are taught to believe that you are less the sinner, that is your pleasure.

agreed that is why I DONT judge the sanctity of people, but only false ideas. I challenge you to find a post of mine where I judged someone as being hell bound.

Jesus said just calling someone a fool can put one into the threat of hell themselves.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Does that seem fair to you?

so are you calling me a fool?

You can site any given scripture set to anyone here and none will deny them. I certainly don't.

What we take away from them obviously varies greatly.

I'm in the "judge not lest you be judged" and "condemn not" camp in case you didn't notice.

Some leap into that headlong, forgetting their own status as sinners.

s

Obviously are are denying the Scripture posted, and since you are in the judging camp as you are judging some passages of Scripture as being unworthy of belief.

 

[squint]

No. You keep confusing things you should be doing. You are equating sin to the sinner, I.e. Identifying sin with the one who sins, for some weird strange reason, that I haven't figured out yet.

You know the drill on sin. We all have it. What's your point?

Obviously that isn't Biblical. From your understanding I guess you assume that Jesus advocated the sin of adultery because He didn't judge the adulterous woman.

Never made any such assertions. Don't even recall discussing this particular one with you in any case. So please don't make positions in my behalf aka strawman arguments.

But you forget what He said afterwards, your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more. Don't forget the sin no more part that is important.

I've been through this with you several times now and don't expect you to see these matters.

There is more than one party involved with sin. The devil, the tempter is involved with every sin. You see just the woman. I don't. I see a SLAVE OF THE DEVIL.

Do you see this or not? If you do see the fact of sin being demonic, then there is little use ignoring the SLAVE MASTER and just seeing the woman is there?

agreed that is why I DONT judge the sanctity of people, but only false ideas. I challenge you to find a post of mine where I judged someone as being hell bound.

Indeed. The most your sect allows in any case is that it is possible. Equally unfortunate is that the same sect tries to play it both ways and ASSURE that it is not just possible, but assured. I hate double dealing the topic matter.

so are you calling me a fool?

Tempt me some more...and I'll think about it, which in my world would be a sin...but then again, I'm a sinner regardless...

Obviously are are denying the Scripture posted, and since you are in the judging camp as you are judging some passages of Scripture as being unworthy of belief.

And equally obvious you are creating numerous false assumptions with attending false conclusions.

s

 

[bottomofsandal]

The fact is the Commandments are not chains, rather they are hammers and chisels to break the true chains of sin.

Galatians 5:14 (NKJV)

14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself."



I know you believe this command. Jesus tells us in John 13:34 to love another. Paul emphasizes BYKOTA. The perfect standard held forth by God is perfect Sacrificial, merciful, forgiving love done with the humility of Christ.


There is constant failure. No one can love like God commands because no one can love their enemies as they love themself all the time. No one can or will love God with ALL 100 percent of their heart mind soul and strength. To love in this manner is to call oneself God, since God alone can love in this capacity.


When a man commends himself and says he loves like God commands, other sinful men who serve God and struggle with the perfect law of God wonder what this brother is thinking. To say we love like God is a form of pride , and pride is a sin. We love God, and we love our neighbor.......just not as well as we give ourselves credit for, and certainly not as God commands.

 

[BobRyan]

Galatians 5:14 (NKJV)

14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
...
There is constant failure. No one can love like God commands ... since God alone can love in this capacity.


... We love God, and we love our neighbor.......just not as well as we give ourselves credit for, and certainly not as God commands.

Romans 8:5-8 says that the lost "cannot" submit to the Law of God - cannot obey it.

Romans 6 says the saints do not ever need to sin out of some sort of "it is impossible not to sin" notion.

[FONT=&quot]Romans 6:12[/FONT]
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If you belong to a church that promotes the idea of always having to sin - ask youself when the last time was that you heard a sermon covering this part of Romans 6 is detail?

never?

zero? do you have any notes at all from them on that?

(And then of course there is 1Cor 10 and the "faithfulness of God" that is being rejected by the 'you must always sin" doctrine.)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

how to lose salvation??

In Matt 18 even a determined spirit of unforgiveness will do it as we saw here.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-53/#post65913382

Matt 18
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

"According to the text"

Is God asking in Matt 18 that the fully forgiven do what they "cannot do" - can never do?? Can only do if they are infinite God?

Is God telling the fully forgiven in Matt 18 that he will revoke their forgiveness because they fail to do what only God can do and not even the saints are enabled to obey so they must have their forgiveness revoked?

Is that what the text says -- or is that how bad doctrine would have it??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 11
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Ask yourself this question when was the last time a speaker stood up in your local church and quoted this to affirm it - rather than to try and survive it?



they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

-------------------------

is God warning the fully forgiven saved saints that they cannot obey and thus must be removed as were the unbelieving now-lost Jews? is it the impossible that God is asking for - even for saved saints who have access to the indwelling Holy Spirit??

is that the Gospel? or is that simply bad doctrine that does not fit the text?

in Christ,

Bob