Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[EddardStark]

Were they ever saved ?

Yes.
Though I'm not certain that we can say that Ananias and Safira are damned. They were punished for a sin, by death, yes. This is true. However, we cannot say that they were not saved, just as we cannot say that a Christian who dies while speeding (breaking the law = sinning) is not saved.

 

[EddardStark]

Mortal sin is how you loose salvation.

There's no such thing.
Or rather....ALL sin is "mortal" in the sense that it seperates us from God. Good thing, then, that the bill has been paid 2000 years ago.

 

[Erose]

There's no such thing.
Or rather....ALL sin is "mortal" in the sense that it seperates us from God. Good thing, then, that the bill has been paid 2000 years ago.

1Jn 5:16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death (Venial), let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death (Venial). There is a sin unto death (Mortal). For that I say not that any man ask. 17 All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death (Mortal).

There are two levels of sin. We call them mortal and Venial. Mortal sin is as John says sin that leads to death. It is a grevious sin act, which separates us from God, for in committing a mortal sin, one is willfully turning away from God for a created good. Venial sin is not a grevious matter, and damages our relationship (for unrestrained Venial sin always leads to mortal sin), but we are not turning away from God completely as we do in mortal sin.

Our own sense of justice tells us that not all sins are equally punishable are they not? Don't we have misdemeanors and felonies? Don't we have differing punishments that fit the crime? Are you going to put a kid in jail for 20 years for stealing a toy at Walmart? No that wouldn't be appropiate.

I think that a problem with many folks is that they forget that God is a Just God.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Odd how some consider them selves saved when they can easily look around and see this is not heaven.
Saying I won the race before the race is finished is a tad presumptuous.

So those translation that render Eph. 2:5 and 8 as "have been saved," and the ones that translate Rom. 8:24 as "were saved," are handling the Greek tense incorrectly?

 

[NorrinRadd]

Thank you for answering !

Some folks can't, won't, or don't have the chops.



Can you tell me anyone here is not saved ?

I have no doubt. Put that notion in the bin.

If I understand the rules correctly, this area of CF is open to "orthodox Christians only," so theoretically there should not be anyone "here" that is not saved, unless they mistakenly believe they ARE saved.

Also, if I understand the rules correctly, if I *did* believe any specific people posting were not saved, I would not be permitted to say that directly, and I would have to be very careful about even hinting at it.

If the sinless perfection crowd is stuck with an on again off again salvation due to committing a sin, that is one definition I suppose.

Some forms of Wesleyan Arminianism seem to boil down to that, although I suspect many of the adherents would consider that to be oversimplifying. That view is different from Classical/Reformation Arminianism.

But, as saints, they are restored quickly to salvation. Those who cannot repent have lost nothing. Their heart is stone, and never was changed.

Yes, I understand that is how Calvinists and some other Xians interpret Scripture. Classical/Reformation Arminians interpret it differently. We understand Scripture to teach that jen-u-wine akshual bornd-agin Chrischuns can abandon the faith, but if they do, they will never again repent and be restored.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Why will no one who is ANTI-OSAS admit they have lost their salvation ?

Your question does not make sense.

If they are currently in an unsaved state, they cannot answer because they are not allowed to post here. This area is for "orthodox Christians only." Unbelievers are not permitted.

I think I have seen some here who are professing believers who say they fell away for a time and then returned. Wesleyan Arminianism (and probably some of the Pre-Reformation faiths) say "fine." Calvinism and Classical/Reformation Arminianism disagree about the possibility of apostasy, but agree that the experience such people claim is not consistent with our understandings of Scripture; for both of us, such people never really were believers, or never really did abandon the faith, or have not really become believers (again).

If this is your pov, but it lacks empirical evidence, then why subscribe to it ?

Because I attempt to base my theology on Scripture, not on "experiment and observation rather than theory."

Since a pro-OSAS sees anti-OSAS proof texts as eisegesis, ...

Of course everyone sees everyone else as employing "eisegesis."

...where do we look for evidence and proof of folks losing their salvation ?

I don't. I'm not sure why anyone would. My understanding of Scripture suffices for me.

It is rather peculiar that no one in the anti-OSAS crowd will fess up that they have lost salvation (and regained) if this is what they are basing their eternity on, as well as preaching to the unsaved.

Well, in my theology, salvation once abandoned is never regained, so I can't help you with that part.

I am "basing (my) eternity" on grace and mercy, on Jesus, on the Cross, on the Resurrection and Ascension, on the Holy Spirit, not one particular point of theology.

I am not "preaching (it) to the unsaved," unless perhaps they ask, because it is not relevant at that point.

The Bible does not have one example whatsoever.

Is there a man or woman who loses their salvation ?

Show us where Jesus says to someone they forfeited external life.

I can point to many examples, but probably none that you would not explain away, just as I would explain away any Scriptures you adduced to "prove" OSAS. Such is the nature of things.

 

[BobRyan]

I also laid out to you several times, to which you've never responded, Romans 11:25-32. It shows clearly there that enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to Israel shall be saved. ALL of them. Why is it you avoid that scripture set? Fraid?

s

Romans 11 sinks OSAS all by itself.

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them.

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Ask yourself this question when was the last time a speaker stood up in your local church and quoted this to affirm it - rather than to try and survive it?



they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Try reading through vs. 32 sometime rather that being stopped short.

If the OSAS solution to the chapter is to ignore it and focus only on one verse with extreme inference applied... oh well...

in Christ,

Bob

 

[squint]

Romans 11 sinks OSAS all by itself.

If the OSAS solution to the chapter is to ignore it and focus only on one verse with extreme inference applied... oh well...

Bob

Repeating the same hack mantra means nothing.

You bring Romans 11 as proof when Romans 11 says the exact opposite, but of course this is not in alignment with your mantra, so it's bypassed.

Romans 11: 25-32 was probably the first scripture set that forced me to change how I viewed these matters, because I couldn't believe my own eyes.

Most can't.

s

 

[BobRyan]

Repeating the same hack mantra means nothing.

You bring Romans 11 as proof when Romans 11 says the exact opposite,

Each time you call Romans 11 "hack mantra" and avoid the text itself to make your point you demonstrate the flaw in OSAS.

I prefer the details in the actual text. -- as usual. See me previous post above for the text details OSAS cannot survive.

or cllick -- http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-61/#post65921295

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

[squint]

Yes I read one directed to you that said that. I did not read it saying it was fine or excusable to do so. I also disagree with that post. I can go a nano second without sinning. I do sleep.

Sin 'indwells' us all.

Most falsely believe they only sin when it shows on the outside.

That is what most of christianity sells their flocks to make them feel better about being factual sinners and turns them into 'sometimes sinners' but most of the time sinless because they are not 'actively sinning.'

Some probably figure they are not sinning til they are actually caught at it.

s

 

[squint]

Each time you call Romans 11 "hack mantra" and avoid the text itself to make your point you demonstrate the flaw in OSAS.

I prefer the details in the actual text. -- as usual. See me previous post above for the text details OSAS cannot survive.

or cllick -- http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-61/#post65921295

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

I expect you are a big boy and can go read it and figure it out rather than me having to paste and highlight for you.

Apparently that isn't the case.

s

 

[squint]

There's no such thing.
Or rather....ALL sin is "mortal" in the sense that it seperates us from God. Good thing, then, that the bill has been paid 2000 years ago.

For 'lesser sins' some sects sell quick fixes while the supposed 'greater sins' have 'more religious requirements' to get the perps off the hook.

 

[BobRyan]

ad hominem or sola scriptura -- pick one.

To think that ad hominem is a substitute for sola scriptura review that shows OSAS surviving the text - is to miss the definition.

The closest you have come to the actual text in Rom 11 that refutes OSAS - is to quote my post.

 

[squint]

ad hominem or sola scriptura -- pick one.

To think that ad hominem is a substitute for sola scriptura review that shows OSAS surviving the text - is to miss the definition.

Yeah, I said the same thing when it derailed my arguments. I've sat in the seat y'all did at one time to and finally had to get real with the scriptures that contradicted ME.

It's not pleasant so most just avoid going there and prefer to wallow in errors. That's how sects stay in place.

s

 

[BobRyan]

1Jn 5:16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death (Venial), let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death (Venial). There is a sin unto death (Mortal). For that I say not that any man ask. 17 All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death (Mortal).

There are two levels of sin. We call them mortal and Venial. .

In Matt 18 even a determined spirit of unforgiveness will do it as we saw here.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-53/#post65913382

Matt 18
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
This application should not be so foreign to the objective unbiased non-OSAS Bible reader who has accepted basic teaching the Gospel of Matthew regarding the Lord's Prayer.




In Romans 11 - we see that a determined effort towards unbelief is the same as ...

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

[squint]

In Matt 18 even a determined spirit of unforgiveness will do it.

In Romans 11 - we see that a determined effort towards unbelief is the same as ...

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

I actually love how Paul sets up Romans 11, showing that Israel was blinded and deafened by a spirit of stupor that would not allow them to hear or understand and THEN he culminates it in vs. 25-32 TO PROVE IT.

It's funny to see it happen in real time to this day. Right in front of the eyes who do see and the ears who do understand to confirm the fact of it.

Quite faith bolstering.

s

 

[bottomofsandal]

Your question does not make sense.

If they are currently in an unsaved state, they cannot answer because they are not allowed to post here. This area is for "orthodox Christians only." Unbelievers are not permitted.

I think I have seen some here who are professing believers who say they fell away for a time and then returned. Wesleyan Arminianism (and probably some of the Pre-Reformation faiths) say "fine." Calvinism and Classical/Reformation Arminianism disagree about the possibility of apostasy, but agree that the experience such people claim is not consistent with our understandings of Scripture; for both of us, such people never really were believers, or never really did abandon the faith, or have not really become believers (again).

Yeah, you said it better than me probably !!!

First, everyone posting here is a born again believer.

I have said all along that I am AFFIRMING salvation, not questioning.

Since eternal insecurity does not exist, I cannot support it anyway.



Erose was bold enough to say that he had stepped away from his faith.

He also said that he returned, thereby validating OSAS in my opinion.

What I found strange is those who refute OSAS have never been unsaved.



IOW, if one is arguing on here against the pro-OSASers, then...

why do all the anti-OSASers resemble the pro-OSASers ?

If the anti-OSASers have not lost their salvation at some point,

then they have misidentified themselves. They are PRO-OSAS !!



Think about it

 

[bottomofsandal]

Why do some denominations, such as the Church of God, not believe in Once Saved Always Saved, even though the Bible clearly outlines that salvation is eternal? That is, salvation is by grace through faith and it is something that cannot be taken from you.

Law-keepers are the ones in disagreement.

The Law does not keep us, neither can anyone follow the law perfectly.

Paul covers this in Galatians with the believers who added law to grace.




Galatians 3:10-14New King James Version (NKJV)

The Law Brings a Curse

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[a] 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[c]

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[d]), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.




All the talk about complete and perfect obedience is rather comical as well as sad. No one can keep the law, but Christ obeyed perfectly, so vicariously we have obeyed perfectly and are righteous with the righteousness of God. For anyone to say they can keep the law, they render Jesus useless.


God does not reward trying or partial obedience. Failure in one area of the law means the entire law has been violated. Unless someone here wants to convince us that they always have and always will (and are able) to follow the perfect law of God perfectly ? We know that is impossible.

 

[squint]

Yeah, you said it better than me probably !!!

First, everyone posting here is a born again believer.

I have said all along that I am AFFIRMING salvation, not questioning.

Since eternal insecurity does not exist, I cannot support it anyway.

What I found strange is those who refute OSAS have never been unsaved.

IOW, if one is arguing on here against the pro-OSASers, then...

why do all the anti-OSASers resemble the pro-OSASers ?

If the anti-OSASers have not lost their salvation at some point,

then they have misidentified themselves. They are PRO-OSAS !!
Think about it

The question is, do you consider it an understanding that is critical/crucial to be saved?

For the record, I don't, and can't, per the scriptures. Though I would consider it both a mortal sin to convey eternal death/burning alive forever, even as a possibility, to another believer in my own heart not to mention it being a personal insult of the lowest order.

There is something wicked in the hearts of mankind that rises up to the bait when it comes to threatening believers eternal fate. It's like it draws every megalomaniac there is out of the woodwork to show their real faces.

s

 

[squint]

From a practical/living standpoint the belief that God in Christ will actually keep His Promises and 'save' us, eternally, it is the basis of the Spiritual aspect of the Sabbath. It gives a very certain 'rest' for the soul, when we are able to put away the thoughts that by being honest before God in Christ no matter what, He will not toss us aside for the factual sinners that we all are.

This promotes a good relationship, though not perfect on our end by any stretch of the imagination.

It promotes a ground of serious exchange on a personal basis with all of our real time troubles with our Lord.

A person is led out of hypocrisy, of putting on the dog and pony show, to supposedly 'prove' ourselves worthy, as that was never the case to being with.

And it prompts us to take a real look at what we really are, how we got there and the scriptural presentations that are provided to address these matters.

In short, it's beneficial to have a relationship with God in Christ where the threats of eternal torture are off the performance table.

Those who believe God might destroy them by eternal death or eternal torture in fire really have nothing more than a law and performance based relationship. Not much different than the relationship they have with the police or with .gov in general.

s