Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[mercy1061]

We have not been discussing that question. So perhaps you could clarify what you are asking? Such as what do you mean by cut off. Cut off from whom, from Israel or God or both? And how this question is relevant to the discussion at hand.

I thought we were discussing romans 11? Pharisee Shaul maintains that G-d has not rejected his people. Remember how Elijah was rejected because of his faith? Those who were cut off or rejected were the very ones G-d preserved for himself ; they received grace, yes they were sent to bring salvation to the gentiles. Pharisee Shaul's argument is simple, just because his family have rejected him like they rejected Elijah, G-d has not rejected the remnant.

 

[mercy1061]

Jews that rejected the Gospel as we see in Romans 11. (Post 651 above)

And saved saints are being warned in Romans 11 that they too will be cut off if they fail to persevere in the faith as Christians.

in Christ,

Bob

G-d has not rejected the remnant that has been rejected by his people. If his people have faith like Elijah, the remnant would be grafted in again. All Israel would be saved, none rejected.

 

[squint]

I was always under the impression that squint was a dude. Checking further, I certainly hope that is correct, sinces squints occupation on his home page is listed as grandpa.

Ya think? I wonder what this symbol means?

s

 

[squint]

G-d has not rejected the remnant.

Even blinded unbelieving enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to 'ALL' of Israel shall be saved. Every last one of them. The text is filled with such promises. But first the reader has to believe their own eyes. Romans 11:25-32.

But the heart is desperately wicked, and can not see or hear.

s

 

[BobRyan]

G-d has not rejected the remnant that has been rejected by his people. If his people have faith like Elijah, the remnant would be grafted in again. All Israel would be saved, none rejected.

Romans 11 says "if they do not continue in unbelief" many Jews in Paul's day did continue in unbelief until the day they died.

But many others as in the case of Acts 2- accepted the Gospel.

Paul speaks in Romans 11 of the efforts that might result in "saving some of them".

So certainly as Paul said a remnant went through. No doubt.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[squint]

So then if they speak against wife-beating or spouse-cheating or porn or... do they say "not that you can stop this for even one second - but I would like you to think that as you do this - it is a bad thing"???

Indwelling sin is the continual presence of sin, of EVIL present.

Your insistence is not much different than that of the Roman catholic, that sin isn't really sin til we can see it with our eyes.

That is not and has never been the case. All people first SIN in their hearts. Then it may or may not eventually leak into the outside world where we can see it for what it is. Nevertheless SIN transpires within, period.

Pharisees loved to look holy on the outside of the cup. Jesus abhorred such measures and called them ravenous wolves WITHIN.

Sound familiar? These same anti-Spiritual principles remain fully in play today, blinding and exposing Pharisees by the millions.

s

 

[Erose]

I thought we were discussing romans 11? Pharisee Shaul maintains that G-d has not rejected his people. Remember how Elijah was rejected because of his faith? Those who were cut off or rejected were the very ones G-d preserved for himself ; they received grace, yes they were sent to bring salvation to the gentiles. Pharisee Shaul's argument is simple, just because his family have rejected him like they rejected Elijah, G-d has not rejected the remnant.

Sorry, wasn't involved in that conversation, so that was the reason for my confusion.

 

[BobRyan]

Jews that rejected the Gospel as we see in Romans 11. (Post 651 above)

And saved saints are being warned in Romans 11 that they too will be cut off if they fail to persevere in the faith as Christians.

in Christ,

Bob

I thought we were discussing romans 11? Pharisee Shaul maintains that G-d has not rejected his people. Remember how Elijah was rejected because of his faith? Those who were cut off or rejected were the very ones G-d preserved for himself ; they received grace, yes they were sent to bring salvation to the gentiles. Pharisee Shaul's argument is simple, just because his family have rejected him like they rejected Elijah, G-d has not rejected the remnant.

Those who were cut off were not preserved - unless they "did not continue in unbelief" according to Romans 11.

Most did continue in it as it turns out.

of the few that did accept the Gospel - Paul was one.

God "foreknew" that some of them would accept the Gospel. Still.. most of them died in unbelief.

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

==========================

And that is the problem for OSAS because it says that the saved saints are in danger of being cut off - along with the lost Jews who continued in unbelief.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 11
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Ask yourself this question when was the last time a speaker stood up in your local church and quoted this to affirm it - rather than to try and survive it?



they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

-------------------------

is God warning the fully forgiven saved saints that they cannot obey and thus must be removed as were the unbelieving now-lost Jews? is it the impossible that God is asking for - even for saved saints who have access to the indwelling Holy Spirit??

is that the Gospel? or is that simply bad doctrine that does not fit the text?

Most honest preachers are against sin, and rightfully so.

So then if they speak against wife-beating or spouse-cheating or porn or... do they say "not that you can stop this for even one second - but I would like you to think that as you do this - it is a bad thing"???

Is that all they are saying as they avoid Romans 11 and its warning to "you who stand by your faith"?

Read what happened to the JEWS in Romans 11. How were they 'cut off?'

[/font]Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear ; ) unto this day.

And more than that - we know that the majority of the Jews of Paul's day died in unbelief. lost.

To this very day a great many go to the grave as unbelievers... lost.

Does anything there indicate they will be eternally killed (or burned alive forever?)

Are you preaching against eternal hell as if just burning them for a few days in the Lake of Fire then destroyed both body and soul for all eternity is a good ending for them?

or are you preaching re-incarnation and "another chance to accept the Gospel" no matter what Christ said in Luke 16 and Heb 9 to the contrary? Mormonism?

What is that you are saying??

Why then were they blinded? Again from Romans 11:

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."

In Romans 11 Paul states explicitly that this only saved "some of them".

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.

"It is appointed unto man once to die and THEN comes the judgment" Heb 9.

No second chance in death.

those Jews who in Paul's day - and today - died as rejecting Christ - were lost.

Paul never states that the Jews were in some odd "saved state" while willfully and knowingly rejecting Christ.

RATHER Paul says "IF they do not CONTINUE in UNBELIEF" they can be grafted in again. But only in that case.

Clearly OSAS does not survive these details in the Rom 11 text.

[/quote]

Indwelling sin is the continual presence of sin, of EVIL present.

Your insistence is not much different than that of the Roman catholic, that sin isn't really sin til we can see it with our eyes.

s

you did not answer the question.

here it is again.

=======================

So then if they speak against wife-beating or spouse-cheating or porn or... do they say "not that you can stop this for even one second - but I would like you to think that as you do this - it is a bad thing"???

Is that all they are saying as they avoid Romans 11 and its warning to "you who stand by your faith"?
=======================

Do you mean wife-beating must continue no matter what for the saints?

Do you mean that wife-hating must replace wife-beating for the saints - no matter what?

Is that your "or else the gospel is not true" argument against Romans 6?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Erose]

I have to say that this thread has been pretty interesting to say the least. Here is a few things that I have learned about OSAS.

1) Even though this idea is only 100-150 years old it has already splintered into at least three differing concepts:
a-That Christians cannot sin.
b-That Christians cannot help but sin, but it really doesn't matter.
c-That Christians can sin, and do have to seek forgiveness, but the OSAS assurance is that God will not allow a Christian to die in the state of sin.

2) That there are at least two ways to handle backsliders:
a-That Christians who backslide and reject God after salvation, were not really saved to begin with.
b-That Christians who backslide and reject God after salvation, remained saved, and after death will end up in heaven.

3) There seems to be more emotional reasons to believe in OSAS than rational or Biblical ones.
4) That this view is by far the weakest view of soteriology, among Protestant churches, IMO. I think that the Lutheran, Calvinist, and Arminian views are much more difficult to debate against. I guess because these ideologies have had about 500 years of defending to get things tied together. Maybe 400 years from now if OSAS still exists, maybe then it will be a better argument for what Scripture says. Right now, it just doesn't have good explanations for those passages that outright reject OSAS.

 

[squint]

So then if they speak against wife-beating or spouse-cheating or porn or... do they say "not that you can stop this for even one second - but I would like you to think that as you do this - it is a bad thing"???

Is that all they are saying as they avoid Romans 11 and its warning to "you who stand by your faith"?

Good and evil transpires in the SAME LUMP. It is never an 'either or' situation.

Paul said evil was present with him when he did good.

Trying to make it a one or the other situation is futility.

And repeating the same old hack questions only shows that the respondent is not getting the picture.

Also as it pertains to Israel, I cite and stand on the FACT of Romans 11:25-32 which shows that ALL of Israel shall be saved, even unbelieving blinded enemies of the Gospel and that, in most cases, AFTER their deaths.

Nevertheless they shall ALL be saved. Every last one of them.

Amos 9:9
For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

And everyone who disagrees with that sight will have this fate:

Isaiah 30:
27 Behold, the name of the Lord cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
28 And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err

s

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry, wasn't involved in that conversation, so that was the reason for my confusion.

Erose - there is a thread here where it is doubted that I take the same side as the Catholic POV when opposing a tradition that does not agree with the Bible.

I offer this thread as an example of my support - no matter that it is not always popular.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[mercy1061]

Romans 11 says "if they do not continue in unbelief" many Jews in Paul's day did continue in unbelief until the day they died.

But many others as in the case of Acts 2- accepted the Gospel.

Paul speaks in Romans 11 of the efforts that might result in "saving some of them".

So certainly as Paul said a remnant went through. No doubt.

in Christ,

Bob

Israel is the church, she put members out of her church. Those members can be grafted back again if she accepts their message. First you need to understand who is doing the rejecting and who is being rejected ; consider the prophet Elijah. In the days of Elijah who did the people reject?

 

[mercy1061]

Those who were cut off were not preserved - unless they "did not continue in unbelief" according to Romans 11.

Most did continue in it as it turns out.

of the few that did accept the Gospel - Paul was one.

God "foreknew" that some of them would accept the Gospel. Still.. most of them died in unbelief.

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

==========================

And that is the problem for OSAS because it says that the saved saints are in danger of being cut off - along with the lost Jews who continued in unbelief.

in Christ,

Bob

Why would those who refuse to accept the truth receive the same punishment as those who walk by faith? Elijah was cut off by the king for his faith, Elijah prevailed after his offering on the altar.

 

[Erose]

Erose - there is a thread here where it is doubted that I take the same side as the Catholic POV when opposing a tradition that does not agree with the Bible.

I offer this thread as an example of my support - no matter that it is not always popular.

in Christ,

Bob

I know that there are a lot of SDA folks out there that absolutely hate my Faith, so I am glad when we can find common ground on matters. Perhaps this common ground will allow us to grow in understanding of our faith traditions.

To be honest I know very little of Ariminian soteriology, and I so need to educate myself on its positions. To be honest ther is quite a bit of commonality between Catholic soteriology and Lutheran, Calvin and it seems Arminian as well. But very little in common with this mess called OSAS.

 

[BobRyan]

Why would those who refuse to accept the truth receive the same punishment as those who walk by faith? Elijah was cut off by the king for his faith, Elijah prevailed after his offering on the altar.

Elijah was never cut off by God as were the unbelieving Jews of Rom 11 who died in their sins.

We can all agree on that point - right?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I know that there are a lot of SDA folks out there that absolutely hate my Faith, so I am glad when we can find common ground on matters. Perhaps this common ground will allow us to grow in understanding of our faith traditions.

To be honest I know very little of Ariminian soteriology, and I so need to educate myself on its positions. To be honest ther is quite a bit of commonality between Catholic soteriology and Lutheran, Calvin and it seems Arminian as well. But very little in common with this mess called OSAS.

On that "other thread" I made the statement that while I do not agree with every single doctrine or action taken by the Catholic church in all of time - I certainly do agree with some points and have posted as much a number of times on CF. I was asked to give an example of that - so here is what I posted.

Originally Posted by Rhamiel

would you mind elaborating, just for the sake of clarity
​

1. Well if you check my signature line .... you will see it.
2. If you check the "Lord's Day" thread that got sent to the Sabbath and the Law forum after the request of MoreCoffee... you will see it.
3. If you check the OSAS thread you will see it.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7828.../#post65933820


As for the 2nd point above --


The Faith Explained
http://www.christianforums.com/t7537.../#post65932873

Dies Domini
http://www.christianforums.com/t7537.../#post65926322
in Christ,

=======================================

As you point out - Seventh-day Adventists do have some doctrinal differences with the Catholic church - on matters of faith and practice - but that does not mean we differ on every point.

One of the areas of common ground is in the Arminian matter of "free will" and also accepting what the Bible teaches about "fallen from Grace" and "severed from Christ" Gal 5:4 as a very real risk for the saved saint.

There are two kinds of Arminians. One group holds to OSAS no matter the Arminian principles against it (Baptist Arminians generally do that in the Southern Baptist tradition for example and many independent Evangelical churches do that as well).

The other group of Arminians flatly reject OSAS - (the 20 million or so Seventh-day Adventists and also the Methodists would fit into that group). This is the one that the Catholic position seems to be least opposed to as well. OSAS believing Arminians have started calling themselves "non-Calvinist" instead of Arminian because they know that OSAS does not fit the Arminian model of choice/free-will.

Calvinists all hold to OSAS as far as I know -- if there is a tiny sliver that does not - I have not heard of them.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Israel is the church, she put members out of her church. Those members can be grafted back again if she accepts their message. First you need to understand who is doing the rejecting and who is being rejected ; consider the prophet Elijah. In the days of Elijah who did the people reject?

Romans 11 is not talking about unbelieving Jews cutting off Christians - it is talking about God cutting off unbelieving Jews.

Rom 11
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Ask yourself this question when was the last time a speaker stood up in your local church and quoted this to affirm it - rather than to try and survive it?



they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

 

[mercy1061]

Romans 11 is not talking about unbelieving Jews cutting off Christians - it is talking about God cutting off unbelieving Jews.

Rom 11
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Ask yourself this question when was the last time a speaker stood up in your local church and quoted this to affirm it - rather than to try and survive it?



they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

It is about unbelieving jews persecuting those jews who follow Christ, the message of the cross. All Pharisee Shaul is saying, Christ and him crucified. G-d has not cut off his people.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 11 does not make any mention at all about unbelieving Jews persecuting someone.

God is not an "unbelieving Jew"

if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.