Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[bottomofsandal]

OSAS is simply the way some hope to adopt eternal security.

And you have to hand it to the 4 point Calvinists and the Baptist Arminians they have bullet proof eternal security when the say you can live like the devil ten years from today's conversion and you are saved no matter what.

Who said this ? What post number ?

Clearly you are clueless as to what OSAS is all about.

BTW, you have a lot of unanswered posts out there bro !

 

[bottomofsandal]

in that case Romans 3 is edited "all HAVE sinned and fall short" to "all continually sin and fall short".

Falling short is falling short.

Anything less than 100% perfection is unacceptable.

If you fall down once or a million times you are still unholy.

One sin is enough for eternal condemnation.

Our righteousness is filthy rags.

 

[Sunshine Locket]

BoS, I think we have to take into account that while many claim to be of the family of Christ that they are not.

Rather than presume then that we are addressing people who know the Bible, scripture, what it means to embody the Holy Spirit, perhaps we should form our replies to certain people as if we are speaking to an atheist who is a seeker.

This way it may help us to realize what is behind very obvious posts that betray an ignorance of Christianity, scripture, doctrine, etc...

What I've found atheists don't understand when they inquire about Christianity is the entire matter of God's grace and redemption of sinners. Which then leads to understanding of the guarantee of OSAS.

Biblical definition and meaning of Redeem, Redemption:
Redeem, Redemption
Finding its context in the social, legal, and religious customs of the ancient world, the metaphor of redemption includes the ideas of loosing from a bond, setting free from captivity or slavery, buying back something lost or sold, exchanging something in one's possession for something possessed by another, and ransoming.

The Old Testament. In the Old Testament, redemption involves deliverance from bondage based on the payment of a price by a redeemer. The Hebrew root words used most often for the concept of redemption are pada [h'd'P], gaal [l;a"G] and kapar [r;p'K].

--------

Jesus conceived his mission to be that of the Son of Man, who came to offer himself in obedience to God's redemptive plan. He applied to himself the things said in the Old Testament of the Servant of the Lord concerning his rejection, humiliation, death, and resurrection ( Mark 8:31 ; 9:31 ; 10:33-34 ). Likewise, New Testament writers apply to him the Servant texts and terminology from the Old Testament (e.g., Matt 8:17 ; 12:18 ; Acts 4:27 Acts 4:30 ; 8:32-33 ; Rom 15:21 ; 1 Peter 2:22-25 ). An important text with regard to Jesus' understanding of his redemptive work is mr 10:45, in which Jesus declares that his mission not only includes self-sacrificial service, but also involves giving his life as a "ransom" for many. Thus, Christ's death is portrayed as the payment price for the deliverance of those held captive by Satan (the ransom metaphor must be understood in the light of Jesus' offering of himself in obedience to the Father, however, and not interpreted as a payment to Satan). As the means of redemption, the death of Jesus provides a deliverance that involves not only forgiveness of sin ( Eph 1:7 ; Col 1:14 ), but also newness of life ( Rom 6:4 ). Even though Christ's redemptive work is perfect ( Heb 9:25-28 ), the redemption of the believer will not be complete until the return of Christ ( Luke 21:28 ; Rom 8:23 ; Eph 4:30 ).

The central theme of redemption in Scripture is that God has taken the initiative to act compassionately on behalf of those who are powerless to help themselves. The New Testament makes clear that divine redemption includes God's identification with humanity in its plight, and the securing of liberation of humankind through the obedience, suffering, death, and resurrection of the incarnate Son. (Full definition)

Who said this ? What post number ?

Clearly you are clueless as to what OSAS is all about.

BTW, you have a lot of unanswered posts out there bro !

 

[Sunshine Locket]

John 8:29, "And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him."

John 6:39, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."

OSAS is Biblical.

What is once saved always saved?
by Matt Slick

 

[BobRyan]

OSAS does not survive the texts posted here - as noted previously.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-53/#post65913382

It only survives by avoiding those texts and confining itself to the use of "extreme inference" when reading a handful of texts.

I picked just one example from that list and showed conclusively that OSAS does not survive the text.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-57/#post65916141

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BTW, you have a lot of unanswered posts out there bro !

Feel free to post a link to something I have missed.

The last post you and I had was this one - to you... right?

Matt 18 explained in some detail
http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-57/#post65916141


Romans 6 refute non-stop sinning for saints.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-58/#post65916280

 

[BobRyan]

I also laid out to you several times, to which you've never responded, Romans 11:25-32. It shows clearly there that enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to Israel shall be saved. ALL of them. Why is it you avoid that scripture set? Fraid?

s

Romans 11 sinks OSAS all by itself.

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them.

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Ask yourself this question when was the last time a speaker stood up in your local church and quoted this to affirm it - rather than to try and survive it?



they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

 

[bottomofsandal]

BoS, I think we have to take into account that while many claim to be of the family of Christ that they are not.

Rather than presume then that we are addressing people who know the Bible, scripture, what it means to embody the Holy Spirit, perhaps we should form our replies to certain people as if we are speaking to an atheist who is a seeker.

This way it may help us to realize what is behind very obvious posts that betray an ignorance of Christianity, scripture, doctrine, etc...

What I've found atheists don't understand when they inquire about Christianity is the entire matter of God's grace and redemption of sinners. Which then leads to understanding of the guarantee of OSAS.

Very wise words...thanks !

God's grace is all that can save us.



We cannot experience this marvelous grace until we incontrovertibly comprehend the wretchedness of our vile, wicked, evil sin nature. Unfortunately, some folks believe we are only slightly "injured", near perfect human beings and are pretty close to being perfect right now. Fallen is not really falling down, rather a skinned knee. These Pelegianesque subscribers need only add the missing ingredient of their good works to the formula, thereby keeping themselves in grace by their contributions.

 

[squint]

Romans 11 sinks OSAS all by itself.

Try reading through vs. 32 sometime rather that being stopped short.

 

[Erose]

Why will no one who is ANTI-OSAS admit they have lost their salvation ?

I have in the past. I once walked away, and God called me back.

If this is your pov, but it lacks empirical evidence, then why subscribe to it ?

Empirical Evidence? Well it is all around us quite frankly. I doubt there is a person on this forum who doesn't know more than a few people, who have walked away from the faith for various reasons.

Since a pro-OSAS sees anti-OSAS proof texts as eisegesis, where do we look for evidence and proof of folks losing their salvation ? It is rather peculiar that no one in the anti-OSAS crowd will fess up that they have lost salvation (and regained) if this is what they are basing their eternity on, as well as preaching to the unsaved.

Ezekiel 18 for starters.

The Bible does not have one example whatsoever.

Is there a man or woman who loses their salvation ?

Show us where Jesus says to someone they forfeited external life.

Judas Iscariot is one. Ananias and Saphira in Acts 5. Rev chapters 1-3 alludes to people who have fallen away in the various churches.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Judas Iscariot is one. Ananias and Saphira in Acts 5. Rev chapters 1-3 alludes to people who have fallen away in the various churches.

Were they ever saved ?

 

[bottomofsandal]

I have in the past. I once walked away, and God called me back.

Sounds like OSAS

 

[Erose]

Why can no one tell us the actual mechanics of losing salvation ?

Mortal sin is how you loose salvation. Mortal is a turning away from God and preferring a created good over the Uncreated Good.

Have any of you "lost" your salvation and for what reason ?

yes, for various reasons. I have been every type of seed in the parable of the sower, sadly; and I pray that I am now the seed that fell in good soil.

If one opposes OSAS, then there should be empirical evidence.

I already pointed out the evidence in a previous post.

It is logical that those who say salvation can be lost, have lost salvation.

yes.

How does one know with certainty that salvation has really been lost ?

because one knows when he has turned away from God, for mortal sin is never committed unknowingly.

And most importantly how is salvation re-captured and re-activated ?

Confess your sins with a humble and contrite heart and He will forgive you.

Again, I am not questioning anyone's salvation, I am affirming salvation.

understood.

 

[Erose]

Sounds like OSAS

No, because I didn't have to come back.

 

[Erose]

Were they ever saved ?

To assume they weren't is reading one's theology into Scripture. Judas walked with Jesus at least for 3 years, and none of these people are referred to never saved, or always damned either. Like Bob has pointed out the fallen, have to fall from something. So if they were never saved, then what did they fall from?

Gal 5: [1] Stand fast, and be not held again under the yoke of bondage. [2] Behold, I Paul tell you, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. [3] And I testify again to every man circumcising himself, that he is a debtor to the whole law. [4] You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace. [5] For we in spirit, by faith, wait for the hope of justice.

 

[bottomofsandal]

No, because I didn't have to come back.

Says who ?

 

[Mama Kidogo]

To assume they weren't is reading one's theology into Scripture. Judas walked with Jesus at least for 3 years, and none of these people are referred to never saved, or always damned either. Like Bob has pointed out the fallen, have to fall from something. So if they were never saved, then what did they fall from?

Gal 5: [1] Stand fast, and be not held again under the yoke of bondage. [2] Behold, I Paul tell you, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. [3] And I testify again to every man circumcising himself, that he is a debtor to the whole law. [4] You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace. [5] For we in spirit, by faith, wait for the hope of justice.

Good post Erose. Scripture is clear that in our sins we are of a different father and not being a follower of God. I agree with the OSAS crowd that God does not leave or forget us but we too often do not do the same.
To enter salvation it is written that we must believe. In our sin we are not believers. But just like that son in the pig pen , being sealed we 'come to ourselves' and return to our Father humbly. And there He is waiting with open arms and a new garment and signet for us.
Christ died for our sins. Let's put to use what was done for us. Not just once but consistently.

 

[Erose]

Says who ?

Says me. I had a choice, and I made one.

 

[Erose]

Good post Erose. Scripture is clear that in our sins we are of a different father and not being a follower of God. I agree with the OSAS crowd that God does not leave or forget us but we too often do not do the same.
To enter salvation it is written that we must believe. In our sin we are not believers. But just like that son in the pig pen , being sealed we 'come to ourselves' and return to our Father humbly. And there He is waiting with open arms and a new garment and signet for us.
Christ died for our sins. Let's put to use what was done for us. Not just once but consistently.

the bolded part I don't think anyone here is debating against. We must look at the vine and vinedresser discourse in John 15 for how a Christian life is like. This passage is by far the best illustration of the Christian life in Scripture, yet I begin at times to think that this passage is missing in a lot of Bibles.

 

[BobRyan]

the bolded part I don't think anyone here is debating against. We must look at the vine and vinedresser discourse in John 15 for how a Christian life is like. This passage is by far the best illustration of the Christian life in Scripture, yet I begin at times to think that this passage is missing in a lot of Bibles.

good point.

in Christ,

Bob