Why do some 'Christians' believe that Hell is not eternal?

[twin.spin]

Hmmmm, "will not see life". So no eternal life. Annihilation perhaps?

Annihilation is not what Scripture teaches.

 

[Danoded]

Was he? Really?

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Eating the apple is was caused him to lose his immortality, and even in those days humans lived for hundreds of years like it was nothing.

 

[dqhall]

Darn! Good rebuttal. What do you think is "outer darkness."

Matthew 10:28 (WEB) "Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

The outer darkness might happen for those whose body and soul are destroyed during the day of judgement. Outer darkness seems like deep space without any light, absolute zero temperature, vacuum, non-existence. Once body and soul are gone, there is no chance for redemption, nor is there pain and suffering. Only God can kill a soul.

 

[Deadworm]

Here are just 6 of the many biblical reasons for a finite confinement to Hell:

(1) Jesus uses the concept of Hell (Gehenna) as a debtor's prison, implying that the debt can in principle ultimately be paid, so that the damned are released (Matthew 18:34; 5:25-26; Luke 12:57-59). This fits well with Jesus' Aramaic word for sin (Chob), which means "debt."

(2) In Luke 12:47-48 Jesus uses finite imagery ("many stripes" or "few stripes") to imply a limited stay in Hell, depending on how much spiritual light one has received.

(3) The Risen Jesus preaches to the deceased wicked "spirits in prison" (= Hell--1 Peter 3:19; 4:6) and thereby implies that the damned can respond positively to His preaching and be saved.

(4) John the seer offers a hovering New Jerusalem as an image of Heaven and teaches that its gates will never be shut (Revelation 21:15). And who lurks outside these gates? The evil dead (22:15)! John thus seems to imply traffic coming and going from Heaven. Permanently open for what purpose? Apparently to allow the damned access to Heaven through postmortem repentance! For what purpose do the righteous leave Heaven? Apparently to help the damned repent and gain entrance. Thus, famed evangelical author/ professor, C. S. Lewis can declare: "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside!"

(5) Paul teaches that unrighteous believers, whose works are "burned up," that is are invalidated upon close scrutiny, are neverless "saved, yet so as by fire (1 Corinthians 3:15)." In rabbinic Judaism, this phrase is applied to a limited stay of 1 year only in Gehenna and is a major biblical grounds for the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.

(6) In any case, keep in mind that the Hebrew word "olam" translated as "et""eternal" in fact merely refers to an indefinitely long period of time; and the Greek "aionios" often translated "eternal" really just means "age-long." .

 

[mkgal1]

Matthew 13 KJB

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

I'm a bit late to this party, and I've not finished reading through all the posts. I apologize if this has already been posted.

Referring to Matthew 13 (like every Bible passage).....context is everything!

-------->The imagery of “weeping and gnashing of teeth” signifies the exclusion of Jews from the kingdom. It is not what the damned do in hell.

It seems quite likely, therefore, that what Jesus saw taking place in this “outer darkness” was the wailing of Jews under the judgment of God, while the gnashing of teeth refers to their hostility towards the righteous. In any case, we appear still to be in the world of national crisis, not in some final metaphysical state of hell. (The Coming of the Son of Man, 90-91)​

The parable speaks of a judgment at the “close of the age” (Matt. 13:39; cf. 13:49). The Gospels give us no reason to think that this phrase refers to the end of history and good reason to think that it refers to the catastrophic transition that will accompany the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple (cf. Matt. 24:1-3). This is also in keeping with the statement in Paul and Hebrews that “the end of the ages” has come upon the current generation (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26).~The parable of the weeds and the question of hell

 

[Hieronymus]

Is not 1 Chronicles 28:9 and John 3:36 also clear?

"for the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever." 1 Chronicles 28

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them." John 3​

The truth is there is conscious existence after physical death's judgement and after when all people will stand before the Judge at the Final Judgement.

Where do you read there that death is not the opposite of life?
I can understand you think this might suggest some sort of remaining existence though:
"for God’s wrath remains on them"
But i guess God's wrath also still abides on Sodom & Gomorrah.
They're all dead and destroyed though, and that was God's example of what the fate of the wicked will eventually be:
Consumed (past perfect) by fire.

Don't get me wrong though.
I think there can still be made a Biblical case for Eternal Conscious Torment.
But the less well known Biblical case for Conditional Immortality (Christ being the Condition) is a lot stronger and makes more sense in the big picture of Scripture.
There are some translation problems from Greek to English too, regarding eternity and time spans.
Also terms as hell and hades are easily mixed up.
I tend to focus more on the moral argument though, because i think it weighs in just about as much as the Biblical case for I.C. and against E.C.T.
Some quotes to consider:

"I can conceive of no more powerful and irrefutable argument in favour of atheism than the eternal torments of hell." (unknown)

"I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my father, brother and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished.
And this is a damnable doctrine." (Charles Darwin)

Now i disagree with Darwin saying the plain language seems to show ECT.
But it was probably how it was taught, as it still is..
As for myself, when i came to believe in Christ, i found the plain language strongly suggests C.I.
It was when i later learned that it is the traditional view and the consensus that ECT is the fate of the unsaved, that i assumed i had it wrong.
But i had just converted to the Law of Christ: "Love your God and Love your fellow humans".
Do you see the problem there?
How can i love God who would eternally tortures the fellow humans i love?
I don't know about you, but the majority of the people i know and love are unbelievers.
My whole family, except for 1 or 2, don't believe.
My friends, except for 1 or 2, don't believe.
And guess where i would end up, when i'm unable to love God?
The struggle was a year or 2 in hell on earth for me.
And guess what, i'm not supposed to harden my heart and get over it.
But now, a few years later, i see traditional Christians with hardened hearts towards people who don't believe.
Or they say things like "they choose to go to hell !" or "they deserve to go to hell", hell representing ECT...
So that's the moral argument.

There are also logical arguments for CI and against ECT.
If Jesus, the 2nd Adam, the Lamb that was slain, had to pay for our sins, and receive the punishment that was meant for us, why is He not in Eternal Conscious Torment?
There's also the proportional argument, and the logic behind that:
How can a human born in sin (fallen creation) do enough wrong in his / her puny 75 years (average!) to justify punishment which is never enough? NEVER ENOUGH !?
I'm not even gonna take (double) predestination theology into the equation, because that would imply God creates humans to torture them for ever and ever...
I could go on, about the saved in Heaven, knowing there are masses of people being tortured in the basement...
I don't want to go there. It's bizar horror.
"For God loved the world so much.... "
Think about it.
I get tears in my eyes when i think about the torments people on earth have to endure, during their temporal lives..
And i'm SUPPOSED to care, aren't i ?
More logical problems:
Eventually God will be "all in all".
How does that work with a basement full of people in eternal conscious torment?
Did God lie, like the serpent suggested, when He said: "Ye shall surely die (dying ye shall die)" ?
And finally, but i already said this, "the wages of sin is death" but ECT is not death.

Don't just believe me, study this for yourself. Get to know the case for CI and against ECT.
It will help your hardened hearts get softer, it will prevent people getting scared away from God's Word.
It will lessen the hate people have towards God.
More people will repent and turn from their worldly ways.
It's important.

God annihilates evil.
He doesn't keep it alive to torture it for ever and ever.

 

[DarkSoul999]

That's a very demonic thing to say, God Forbid such ever occurs. In regards to your first paragraph, God is the ultimate judge of good and evil. If He decrees that someone is worthy of Hell than the person surely is without a shadow of doubt.

Sure they deserve it! But it has nothing to do with love. He isn't punishing his enemies this way because he loves the ones who chose him. I'm pretty sure nobody in heaven will be watching the Lava pit like it is some sort of fun circus. Nobody is getting any pleasure from it. He is punishing them because he despises them! He hates these particular persons because of their choices and their rejection of the one way out!

We weren't discussing good and evil. We were discussing love and hate. Those are different concepts entirely.

The second paragraph is what happens in this eternal torment scenario but my description is the dialed down PG kid friendly version of what Hell is like. So by extension you accidentally just called God demonic!!!!

 

[DarkSoul999]

I suppose we can rule out it meaning love, right? But must it be hate?

When someone is not rewarded and some others are, does that indicate hate? I do not think it necessarily does. It is a matter of justice. OR it could be that these lost souls just cannot stand the presence of God because of how they've given themselves over to evil. There are possibilities that the average person who thinks in terms of love vs. hate, period, never contemplates.

If people ran to hell because they can't stand the presence of God then absolutely nobody would be debating this. It would be common sense and not even the most rabid anti-theist would have issue with it. Scripture is very confusing. It is totally possible that God built a torture pit and will drag people down to it even if they are kicking and screaming. We can't even be certain if they are eternal conscious or simply die.

The rich man in hell certainly didn't want to be there. In fact he wanted to warn the living. Of course this may be a parable and not a literal description of a real event...who knows.

 

[MyGivenNameIsKeith]

Uhm, no.
I was born in Adam. Mortal.O please do explain. Please.

Psalms 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Ezekiel 28:15 - Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

But if you prefer people people to be tortured for ever and ever you should have a look at your heart.

As far as the moral compass....here you are questioning the inerrant Word of God.
Revelation 14:9-10 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Did you never read Ezekiel 9?
Or read of the judgment of the whole earth in Noah's day?
And because God is "merciful" and full of grace that somehow the lake of fire is baloney and not to be believed?
I in turn say, if you prefer the Bible to be full of lies, you should have a look at your own heart, for it does not contain lies but truth. God never changes. His righteous wrath is the same today as it was when he rained fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomorrah. And yes forever, eternity is longer than we can imagine and fathom. Which is why we in our mortal fleshly bodies are so quick to turn back to the sinful life we knew.
It still does not change the fact that the punishment fits.
God said that was the punishment. Has he never fulfilled his promises on anything?

 

[Hieronymus]

Annihilation is not what Scripture teaches.

Yes it is.
Are you suggesting we're making it up?
Again, for both scenarios a case can be made, Biblically.
So which case is stronger?
You should look into it.

 

[mkgal1]

Jesus said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away" Matthew 24:35 (WEB)

Why would anyone expect hell to endure forever, if the heavens and earth must eventually perish? Hell will be destroyed. In 2 Peter there is a promise God will create a new world.

Heaven and earth (what's meant by "heaven and earth" there.....in my belief) has already passed away.

If not, then the Old Covenant would still be active (Jubilee; animal sacrifice; prohibition of mixing fabric, etc). Has the Old Covenant vanished? Then so have heavens and earth passed away:

------->“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth and the former things will not be remembered or come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing and her people for gladness.”

Isaiah is predicting the eventual reconstruction of Jerusalem after its destruction at the hands of invaders. He uses Hebrew parallelism to equate the creation of “new heavens and a new earth” with the restoration of Jerusalem. So Jesus isn't the first prophet to describe Jerusalem and her temple with grand language describing its theological significance. Jerusalem was the place where people encountered the presence of God on earth. The Temple is where heaven met earth.~When Heaven and Earth Passed Away: Everything Changed

--------->That Old Covenant nation was going to pass away in their generation. Remember, this whole chapter is an answer to their question about when the temple was to be destroyed and the Jewish age would end.

John Brown said:

"Heaven and earth passing," understood literally, is the dissolution of the present system of the universe, and the period when that is to take place, is called the "end of the world." But a person at all familiar with the phraseology of the Old Testament Scriptures, knows that the dissolution of the Mosaic economy, and the establishment of the Christian, is often spoken of as the removing of the old earth and heavens, and the creation of a new earth and new heavens" (vol. 1, p. 170)~The Passing Away of Heaven and Earth - Mark 13:31: Berean Bible Church​

 

[Hieronymus]

Psalms 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Ezekiel 28:15 - Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


As far as the moral compass....here you are questioning the inerrant Word of God.

No buddy.
I'm questioning errant human interpretation and translation.
You have little justification to make such accusations when you're not familiar with the BIBLICAL case for CI and against ECT.
Yeah, of course you think you're right.
We all think we're right.
That doesn't mean we actually ARE right.
I know i'm familiar with both sides.
I had to investigate this from both sides.

 

[Hieronymus]

If people ran to hell because they can't stand the presence of God then absolutely nobody would be debating this. It would be common sense and not even the most rabid anti-theist would have issue with it. Scripture is very confusing. It is totally possible that God built a torture pit and will drag people down to it even if they are kicking and screaming. We can't even be certain if they are eternal conscious or simply die.

I beg to differ.
I'm quite certain it's not God's business to torture his creatures without ever stopping.

But i've said enough here now.
I'm a lousy apologist. I haven't got the Biblical answers ready to cut and paste for you.
I hope the traditionalists will do the right thing, which is investigate this stuff.
I gave you sound moral reasons to do so.
Ask yourselves why you wouldn't investigate this.

 

[jovanovic]

And this is wishful thinking?

There is no support in the bible for that.

 

[jovanovic]

Hell was made for Satan and his angels. It doesn't say it was made for man.

God knows the future, he did know that humans where gonna be sinners and end up in hell.

Angels, just like humans, will be tortured in hell and therefore hell is for everyone.

 

[MyGivenNameIsKeith]

No buddy.
I'm questioning errant human interpretation and translation.
You have little justification to make such accusations when you're not familiar with the BIBLICAL case for CI and against ECT.
Yeah, of course you think you're right.
We all think we're right.
That doesn't mean we actually ARE right.
I know i'm familiar with both sides.
I had to investigate this from both sides.

Biblically, I would prefer you make your case. Quoting atheists and non-believers to support a moral argument isn't helping. It isn't that I think I am right, I rely on the Bible. I rely on God's own word, not my own understanding. There are times I am short on understanding things I have read thousands of times. In this case, I would prefer to see some verses that may help shed some light on these subjects. Please don't use the acronyms as they are confusing. I keep having to re-look them up every time just to follow.

 

[jovanovic]

I believe hell, the lake of fire, is the natural consequences of our sin. It always will be. That, in itself, doesn't mean we will spend an eternity there. I believe repentance is the way out.

and where in the bible do you find source for that? the bible say people who go to hell will perish for ever and that there is no way out, nowhere in the bible does it say that people in hell will go to heaven.

 

[dreadnought]

and where in the bible do you find source for that? the bible say people who go to hell will perish for ever and that there is no way out, nowhere in the bible does it say that people in hell will go to heaven.

[17] "Yet your people say, `The way of the Lord is not just'; when it is their own way that is not just.
[18] When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it.
[19] And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it.
[20] Yet you say, `The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways." Ezekiel 33:17-20 RSV

 

[Hieronymus]

Biblically, I would prefer you make your case.

Yeah, so would i
But i choose to leave that up to people who are better at that than i am.
I'll PM some members if they can chime in, if they haven't already (i joined this thread a little late).

Quoting atheists and non-believers to support a moral argument isn't helping.

Darwin was not an atheist.
The quotes explain however why people would become atheists.
I assumed that was obvious.

It isn't that I think I am right, I rely on the Bible.

So do i buddy.
We both think we're right.

Look into it.
It's important.

 

[Hieronymus]

and where in the bible do you find source for that? the bible say people who go to hell will perish for ever and that there is no way out,

Indeed, there is no way back from the 2nd death.
Perished (past perfect) for ever.

nowhere in the bible does it say that people in hell will go to heaven.

That's not what the CI vs ECT discussion is about though.