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Why do so few creationist know the definition of "evolution"

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shernren

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To answer matthewj's question: Because we suck at teaching science?

I wonder how many people would actually know how to back up the claim that the earth is round without resorting to photos from outer space (which, after all, can be faked).
 
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Matthewj1985

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It would be a great gain for creationism if all mankind actually knew what evolution is trying to sell.
It is trying to say all the great changes of life from bugs to brains are not from Gods control or innate control but simple desperate survival of types of the same type.
its absurd and dumb. its unwitnessed and unevidenced and unlikely.
Its coming to a end as more and smarter people look at these ideas from close ispection in small circles in Acaedemia. (sp)

I hate to tell you but instead of actually entering REAL academia, they have actually created their own version, only dumber. In creation academia, if you want to be a doctor all you need is a credit card and an email account, if you want to submit a paper for peer review in a "creation journal" you don't even need to spell check, let alone fact check! Ask anyone currently working in the field of biology at the (accredited) university level, there is no debate, only lots of people who know lots about biology who constantly facepalm after listening to those who don't.
 
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Matthewj1985

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Believe me --- I know all about evolution --- from alleles to zygotes and everything in-between; and when I see a kangaroo lay an egg that hatches into a human being after starting out as a porcupine --- then I'll give evolution some validity.

Well, when I see Jesus ride a unicorn over a rainbow in southern Ontario then I might give Christanity a chance. Would you say I have a firm grasp on what Christanity entails after reading this statement?
 
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Matthewj1985

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I am quite aware that in late years evolutioniste have re-defined their pet theory in this way, because if all you are talking about is the porportional distribution of alleles, evolution can be clearly demonstrated.

But if you include the rise of alleles that did not previously exist and their spread through a population to the extent that new genera exist, this has never been demonstrated to have ever happened. It exists only in theory.

In my university years as a senior level Biology student, I saw again and again the fact that the only REAL reason that evolution was almost universally accepted was because the only reasonable alternative was a creation of some kind. And that was rejected because a creation requires a creator, and that was a totally unacceptable concept.

The reason, and the only real reason, this concept is so unacceptable is because if there is a creator, then there is someone or something that basically owns us and has a right to tell us what to do.

How is it even remotely reasonable to see the huge line of transitional fossils from ape to man and just assume that they were all "created" and have nothing to do with each other. Saying that the only choices are creation or evolution is a false dichotomy. Also what Biology dpt did you work with where magic was an acceptable answer? I have yet to see a single scientific theory that relied on "God" or magic.

If so many are opposed to the idea of a creator then why are most American's Christian? How do you accept Christ as you lord and savior but not be real keen on the idea of a creator God?
 
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Matthewj1985

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Like I say: If someone wants to pwn evolution, all they need is the first chapter of the Bible; and if they want to pwn atheism, all they need is the first verse of the Bible.

  • Genesis 1 pwns evolution.
  • Genesis 1:1 pwns atheism.

While I am in the minority here, I must remind you that you have yet to make your case for either the divinity of the bible or the bible being more valid than any other religious book.
 
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Matthewj1985

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Evolution is a theory in the field of biology. It doesn't discuss mass/energy. That is a concept from physics. I am not particularly conversant in physics so I don't have an answer to that question.

I do know that it is not relevant to evolution.

Sometimes I wonder if AV is a Poe or not. I mean this entire thread was created asking why so many creationist don't understand that evolution=biology and evolution=/=big bang, physics, chemistry, cosmology, geology, abiogenesis and yet he makes the same mistake.
 
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Matthewj1985

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Hello --- nice to meet you --- :wave:Yes, I was just joking.It does --- thank you for the info.

:clap: Bravo AV, this is the first time I have seen you actually look at evidence, make the logical choice and admit to it. Kudos to you.
 
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Matthewj1985

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To answer matthewj's question: Because we suck at teaching science?

I wonder how many people would actually know how to back up the claim that the earth is round without resorting to photos from outer space (which, after all, can be faked).

lol, that same subject came up in a book I am reading right now called "Lies my Teacher Told Me" about the whole Columbus proving the world was round. The author pointed out the small fact that when ships left harbor they always disappeared from the bottom up and the top of the mast was always the last thing seen. I mean the horizon line is all of what, 20 miles out?

I also read a study the other day about how few high school seniors could find their own country on a map, truly sad.
 
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shernren

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I also read a study the other day about how few high school seniors could find their own country on a map, truly sad.

Wait. You mean, like, there are other countries in the world? No way!
 
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Matthewj1985

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Wait. You mean, like, there are other countries in the world? No way!

lol, I took this test the other day and missed like 6 (and then only like one country off), something tells me that my own president couldn't even complete this, let alone 90% of my country.
 
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marlowe007

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Creationists have never understood the meaning of evolution. An uncle of mine was a biology teacher whose career came to a premature end for presenting the case against evolution and circulating an 'open letter' critical of the theory. He was suspended and subsequently barred from teaching science to school children. Amongst his "evidences" was the idea that living animals are dwarfs compared with their fossil ancestors, thus the fossil record shows that animals have degenerated and devolved, rather than evolved. Someone should have told him that "devolution" IS evolution!
 
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Biblewriter

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How is it even remotely reasonable to see the huge line of transitional fossils from ape to man and just assume that they were all "created" and have nothing to do with each other.
This is typical of the gross oversimplification and lack of reasonable thinking displayed by evolutionists.

The few supposedly transitional forms do not demonstrate even a small fraction of a percent of the number of inrermediate forms required for man to have descended from ape-like creatures.

The common answer for this problem is that the fossil record is very incomplete. But that is a pure assumption. This unfounded assumption is clearly demonstrated to be incorrect by the fact that most of the genera known today in Europe and North America have been found fossilized.

Again, similarities indeed seem to indicate some kind of relationship. (Although they do not conclusively prove one.) But what kind of a relationship do they indicate? They could indeed indicate a hereditary relationship, in the absence of other evidence. But they can just as reasonably be argued to indicate creation by the same mind. No one argues that all Chevrolets must be descended from a common ancestor. But their obvious similaraties indeed demonstrate that they came from the same engineering department.

´Saying that the only choices are creation or evolution is a false dichotomy.

That statement came from my evolutionist Ph.D. professors and advanced biology students in the University of Kentucky in the late 1960's.

Also what Biology dpt did you work with where magic was an acceptable answer? I have yet to see a single scientific theory that relied on "God" or magic.

I do not recall even suggesting anything resembling "magic."

If so many are opposed to the idea of a creator then why are most American's Christian? How do you accept Christ as you lord and savior but not be real keen on the idea of a creator God?

I believe in a Creator God. I do not see how any real Christian could possibly reject this concept. But many people call themselves Christians, but do not believe the Bible, the word of God.
 
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gluadys

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This is typical of the gross oversimplification and lack of reasonable thinking displayed by evolutionists.

The few supposedly transitional forms do not demonstrate even a small fraction of a percent of the number of inrermediate forms required for man to have descended from ape-like creatures.

Only one specimen of an A. afarensis is needed to validate that the species existed. Look at every species of australopithecine and hominine we have, and can we really say that any intermediate form in the human lineage is missing? In several cases, it is not that any form is missing; it is a question of which of two or more forms is the direct ancestor and which the collateral ancestor.


The common answer for this problem is that the fossil record is very incomplete. But that is a pure assumption. This unfounded assumption is clearly demonstrated to be incorrect by the fact that most of the genera known today in Europe and North America have been found fossilized.

It is certainly true that some lineages are better known than others. We have excellent fossils of many equine ancestors, but very few of bat ancestors. However, unless one is going to suppose an entirely different kind of history for bats than for horses, it makes more sense to suppose that bat ancestors did not leave as many fossils as horse ancestors did.

Again, similarities indeed seem to indicate some kind of relationship. (Although they do not conclusively prove one.)

This is typical of the backwards about reasoning of creationists. You know from your own experience that relationship is shown in similarities. That's why relatives coo over new infants and young children, exclaiming "He has his father's ears/his mother's eyes." Or "He looks so much like his Uncle Jim; look at that chin."

In common life we expect close relationship to be indicated by similarity of feature and even of personality. Just so in evolution, we expect close relationship to be indicated by similarity of feature. Yet when this straightforward principle is applied, we are told "similarity does not indicate relationship." Tell that to the courts who accept DNA similarity to establish paternity.

Exactly how do you expect those who inherit similar DNA not to show physical similarity? Why then is physical similarity not to be taken as evidence of shared DNA? Shared DNA implies a common heritage from a common ancestor. Why should any other scientific explanation be sought?

But what kind of a relationship do they indicate? They could indeed indicate a hereditary relationship, in the absence of other evidence.

A hereditary relationship need not be one of direct ancestry. My great-uncle is an ancestor of mine, with whom I am likely to share more common DNA than with an Italian (there being no record of Italian relatives in our family). True, his brother (my grandfather) is even more closely related, but we don't need to establish a direct ancestry to establish a hereditary relationship. With fossils we usually cannot establish the exact degree of relationship; that is why scientific reports never say "this fossil is an ancestor of..." but instead something along the line of "this is the type of fossil that is close to the common ancestor of..." The fact is that even if we found the common ancestor of two groups, we could not establish, on fossil evidence alone, that it is the common ancestor, so it would still be written up as "close to the common ancestor".



But they can just as reasonably be argued to indicate creation by the same mind.

I see this claim all the time. But I have never seen the reasoning spelled out. Nor have I ever seen it related successfully to the actual distribution of biological characteristics in either living or fossil species. Even granting that an artist might have consistent habits, it doesn't make her works fit into a nested hierarchy based on a multitude of shared derived features.

No one argues that all Chevrolets must be descended from a common ancestor. But their obvious similaraties indeed demonstrate that they came from the same engineering department.

1. Cars are not biological (yet). They don't self-reproduce.
2. The manufacturers of Chevrolets do borrow innovations from other manufacturers. I don't know which auto company first developed anti-locking braking systems, but they were soon featured on automobiles of all companies. Ditto child-proof locks, air bags, etc. In biology, each such innovation would only be passed to the descendants of the species in which it first occurred. It wouldn't jump across brand-name lines to appear in different lineages. So if we were dealing with a common "mind" rather than common "ancestry" in biology, we would expect this sort of crossing of lines. We don't see it, even when it would make sense. (Why, for example, do bats not have the same more efficient respiration system as birds?)
3. Even within the same company, automobiles cannot be classified into a single nested hierarchy. A classification based on characteristics of brakes would not likely match a classification based on characteristics of hood ornaments. In biology, we do get a single nested hierarchy whether we use anatomical features, DNA analysis, biogeography or endogenous retroviral features. IOW highly different criteria yield the same relational features. This is something one must get from relationships of inheritance, but is not explicable on any other basis.



That statement came from my evolutionist Ph.D. professors and advanced biology students in the University of Kentucky in the late 1960's.

We often assume what people mean when they use certain terms. Did they mean "creation" in general--i.e. a blanket denial that the universe is a creation or that life is a creation, or did they mean "special creation" --i.e. a horse is not a specially created form, but one with an evolutionary ancestry.

Of course, some would mean both. But many who would deny the special creation of particular biological forms would not be anti-creation in a larger sense. It is an important distinction to make. Just because I don't believe in the special creation of a horse or a frog or of humanity doesn't mean I don't believe in creation.

A second factor is whether or not they meant it scientifically. To many people it appears irrational to believe in a creator. But when asked, they would agree that they cannot produce a proof that eliminates creation. They would agree that although they personally find it irrational to believe in creation (in the larger sense stated above) that belief in creation is not inconsistent with science and that science does not decree atheism or even agnosticism.


I believe in a Creator God. I do not see how any real Christian could possibly reject this concept.

Neither do I. This belief is fundamental to Christianity. Yet many Christians do not find they need to reject evolution on this account. It is a false dichotomy to say one must choose between evolution and creation.

It is also false to conclude that those who accept evolution are not really Christian believers.
 
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mark kennedy

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As long as you are trying to be exact, let's make that "the change in the proportional distribution of alleles in a population over generations".

That's fine, a clearer description of what an allele and adaptive evolution includes would be better.

Alleles, of course, can change through mutation, but that doesn't in itself, lead to evolution. You have to get the new allele established in the population first, and then see how it fares against other alleles of the same gene. Does it come to a Mendelian balance (no evolution) or does the proportional distribution change (evolution)?

Evolution is a misnomer the way it is used in popular evolutionist rhetoric. It's simple in it's essence my dear so lets not over complicate it. The question is not do things evolve given the scientific definition of evolution, its, do things evolve, since you have to be mentally ill to think they do not. The questions are; when they do what are the mechanisms and what are the limits? Then, What are they and how do they account for observed and demonstrated adaptation/evolution? Ultimately the final question has to confront the evolutionist whether he or she likes it or not, are there real limits?

See my signature.

By the way, I have always appreciated your participation in these discussions and would like to wish you a blessed holiday season and a happy new year.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Biblewriter

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Only one specimen of an A. afarensis is needed to validate that the species existed. Look at every species of australopithecine and hominine we have, and can we really say that any intermediate form in the human lineage is missing? In several cases, it is not that any form is missing; it is a question of which of two or more forms is the direct ancestor and which the collateral ancestor.

You have entirely missed the central point of what I said. I never intended to even hint at the idea that hese species never existed. I rather pointed out that the half dozen or a dozen intermediate forms that are claimed by evolutioniste to demonstrate human evolution are less than a thousandth of a percent of the intermediate forms that would have to have existed if man indeed evolved from an ape-like creature.

I will not address the rest of what you said at this time.
 
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gluadys

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That's fine, a clearer description of what an allele and adaptive evolution includes would be better.

That would have improved your original post too. Just in passing, let's note that while a change in the proportional distribution of alleles constitutes evolution, it does not necessarily reflect adaptive evolution. One could even develop a scenario in which the less adaptive form of an allele became the more common one e.g. in a founder's event.

And, of course, there is always the possibility that a currently non-advantageous allele becomes advantageous under a different scenario. Evolutionary advantage is always a relative matter and can be temporary. But you know all this.



Evolution is a misnomer the way it is used in popular evolutionist rhetoric. It's simple in it's essence my dear so lets not over complicate it.

I don't think I am. There are many different possibilities in any evolutionary scenario, but the process is still the same basic and simple process. In spite of all the additional information from genetics since Darwin, we have not really changed the format of natural selection. Nor needed to.


The question is not do things evolve given the scientific definition of evolution, its, do things evolve, since you have to be mentally ill to think they do not.


In order to determine if things evolve, one has to have a concept of what evolution is. And to have a basis for a scientific description of evolution, one needs to describe the mechanism of evolution as well. That, of course, was the genius of Darwin: to propose natural selection as the mechanism of biological evolution.


The questions are; when they do what are the mechanisms and what are the limits?

We probably have not discovered all the mechanisms yet, but I doubt that any new discoveries such as those that are coming from embryological development (evo-devo) will displace natural selection as a key element. They will add to our understanding of how genetic change impacts formation. We may also improve our information around processes of speciation. What is it that drives populations to diverge from each other?

We already know of some constraints on the direction of evolution. Every historical turning down one path closes off access to others. Yet we also see ingenious ways to fill a new (or old) niche with new forms. Coming out of the water and losing gills did not ultimately confine tetrapods (reptilian or mammalian) to a terrestrial existence for all time. The new tetrapodal form was revamped to adapt to marine life again.


What are [the mechanisms] and how do they account for observed and demonstrated adaptation/evolution?

The mechanisms we have observed are sufficient to account for all demonstrated evolution, since these are how evolution has been demonstrated. Having noted phenotypic change and/or reproductive isolation--in the lab or in the field---researchers have checked for genotypic change and found such changes to parallel the phenotypic change.

The question actually arises in the cases of evolution that has been inferred rather than demonstrated (e.g. common descent of all mammals from one mammalian ancestor.)

But on what basis would we not ascribe historical changes in species to the same mechanisms that produce them in living species? It seems to me the shoe is really on the other foot. One needs to show how evolution would be blocked from producing the observed differences.


Ultimately the final question has to confront the evolutionist whether he or she likes it or not, are there real limits?

There may be, but we haven't found them yet. Nothing we know of in the realm of biology infringes on any known limits. The question is moot until we reach a limiting case. I know you think the evolution of the human brain is such a limiting case, but you don't seem to be able to convince anyone other than yourself.

By the way, I have always appreciated your participation in these discussions and would like to wish you a blessed holiday season and a happy new year.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Thanks, and the same to you.
 
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daveleau

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I understand evolution and that it has nothing to do with the origins of life. It has to do with the diversification of species. However, whenever the issue of evolution is discussed, it is pointless to discuss it philosophically if the origin of life is not first laid out. So much of evolution is philosophy of science (interpretations of data from scraps of evidence into a major process). I think this is where scientists drop the ball, as they are not trained in philosophy. They are trained in the scientific processes and interpretation, however the interpretation portion is taken to extremes in evolution due to the inability to see the process in action or test most of the hypotheses.

So, since science cannot answer the beginnings of life (Richard Dawkins has admitted it cannot be answered), it is a huge sticking point and theologians are the only ones who have an answer. Evolution's big picture is inexorably linked to the origins of life, and that is why it frequently comes up in discussions.

But, to pointedly answer your question, both average scientists and average theologians (armchair or trained) have a detailed knowledge of only one side of the issue. Typical scientists discussing evolution have a high school equivalent understanding of philosophy/theology and a deep understanding of scientific processes to gain data. On the flip-side, typical theologians (armchair or trained) have a high school equivalent understanding of science but a deep understanding of philosophy/theology. To discuss this topic, it is crucial to have an developed understanding of science, theology and philosophy.

I will say that recent findings in genetics really blow holes in the evolutionary data, though. Now that we know that DNA has little "junk" DNA (scientists until recently thought introns were an evolutionary backlog of previously working genes) and that DNA is read both forward and backward, the genetic evidence behind evolution must be rethought. The percentages quotes for chimpanzee - human genomic similarity are based on exons only, and the "wobble base" for amino acids (third nucleotide can often change without altering the amino acid called for in the protein) being unimportant. Both intron importance and DNA reading findings will reduce greatly the similarity between chimpanzee and human DNA. I venture to say it will be well below 90% now, whereas it has been quoted to be in the high 98% regime previous to these findings. This significantly hurts the evolutionary case since mutations and natural selection take such a long time to really make any meaningful change. The current agreed upon age of the earth by geologists really doesn't leave enough time for evolution of minor species, much less advanced species.

In Christ,
Dave
 
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LewisWildermuth

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Because they have no choice. They must continue on in ignorance because they have convinced themselves that if their opinion is wrong then God is wrong.

Some fear that if they are not somehow special, God will not love them. That if they are related to any other thing living on this planet, they are worthless in God's eyes.

So they cannot even accept the real definition of evolution without fear that it will separate them from God.
 
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shernren

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I understand evolution and that it has nothing to do with the origins of life. It has to do with the diversification of species. However, whenever the issue of evolution is discussed, it is pointless to discuss it philosophically if the origin of life is not first laid out. So much of evolution is philosophy of science (interpretations of data from scraps of evidence into a major process). I think this is where scientists drop the ball, as they are not trained in philosophy. They are trained in the scientific processes and interpretation, however the interpretation portion is taken to extremes in evolution due to the inability to see the process in action or test most of the hypotheses.

So, since science cannot answer the beginnings of life (Richard Dawkins has admitted it cannot be answered), it is a huge sticking point and theologians are the only ones who have an answer. Evolution's big picture is inexorably linked to the origins of life, and that is why it frequently comes up in discussions.

I study physics and chemistry, and hope to do so for a living. I find it interesting (to say the least) when creationists elegantly profess skepticism for the conclusions of evolution, when they will swallow far more ludicrous interpretations of physical and chemical data with utter naivete.

Take the atom. You ever seen one? I haven't, and in my entire professional career (along with about 90% of the scientific world) I doubt I ever will. And yet creationists will accept with hardly a word of dissent the idea that everything around us is made of gazillions of minute particles that they will never ever see. And you thought evolution was hard to believe!

Let's put things in perspective. There are about 6.5 billion humans on the planet; say each of them has 200,000 hairs on their head (I have no idea, even up to order of magnitude, what the actual number is). Now suppose an alien from Mars (heh heh) were to land on Earth and proudly announce that there were 1.3 x 10^15 human head hairs on Earth, and asked you to believe him uncritically. Surely you would have skepticism for his result! And yet, that's roughly the order of magnitude of the number of molecules involved in a typical first year titration. So whenever a first year student writes in his logbook the concentration of a sample he was titrating, he is asking his lecturer (and whoever reads his work) to believe a similar conclusion regarding the number of molecules in his sample. And we all take it so easily!

Sure some people take the process of interpretation to interesting extremes in evolution. But I think anybody teaching college physics is asking their students to believe leaps of logic that make evolution look like a flea trying to compete with a kangaroo. And nobody ever makes noise about how unintuitive physics is.

But, to pointedly answer your question, both average scientists and average theologians (armchair or trained) have a detailed knowledge of only one side of the issue. Typical scientists discussing evolution have a high school equivalent understanding of philosophy/theology and a deep understanding of scientific processes to gain data. On the flip-side, typical theologians (armchair or trained) have a high school equivalent understanding of science but a deep understanding of philosophy/theology. To discuss this topic, it is crucial to have an developed understanding of science, theology and philosophy.

Alister McGrath, John Polkinghorne, Thomas Torrance, and plenty of other professional theologians have had significant education in the sciences. Interestingly, many theologians who have studied a lot of science wind up much closer to the TE section of the spectrum than to the creationist side.

I will say that recent findings in genetics really blow holes in the evolutionary data, though. Now that we know that DNA has little "junk" DNA (scientists until recently thought introns were an evolutionary backlog of previously working genes) and that DNA is read both forward and backward, the genetic evidence behind evolution must be rethought. The percentages quotes for chimpanzee - human genomic similarity are based on exons only, and the "wobble base" for amino acids (third nucleotide can often change without altering the amino acid called for in the protein) being unimportant. Both intron importance and DNA reading findings will reduce greatly the similarity between chimpanzee and human DNA. I venture to say it will be well below 90% now, whereas it has been quoted to be in the high 98% regime previous to these findings. This significantly hurts the evolutionary case since mutations and natural selection take such a long time to really make any meaningful change. The current agreed upon age of the earth by geologists really doesn't leave enough time for evolution of minor species, much less advanced species.

On the contrary, I would think the findings you describe actually make evolution far more plausible, not less. When we thought the genome contained a lot of junk DNA, this also meant that many mutations were considered to be neutral or slightly deleterious mutations.

However, if those findings are right and the genotype affects the phenotype a lot more than we used to think, then that means that there are a whole lot more beneficial (and deleterious) mutations than we once thought there were (since now, any change anywhere has some effect). Furthermore, since mutations happen simultaneously across the genome, there is much more chance for synergistic effects to occur (again, since any change anywhere has some effect, which would interact with the effects of other changes elsewhere).

As a whole, this would mean that natural selection has a far stronger grip on the genome than we thought it did - and thus, that it would take less time for significant evolutionary change to occur in terms of genetics, not more.
 
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