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Why do so few creationist know the definition of "evolution"

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champuru

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Originally Posted by Matthewj1985
I also read a study the other day about how few high school seniors could find their own country on a map, truly sad.



Actually, this is a result of a conscious decision made by the American Education Association.

The State of Ohio commissioned a study to determine what happened to our educatiuion system. The study found damning evidence in the papers of the AEA that that they decided to reduce the quality of education in the United States for the stated reason that "a less educated population can more easily be persuaded to accept socialism."
Source? Since the AEA was created in 2005, I seriously doubt that they succeeded in dumbing down America.
And it worked. If you don't believe it, check out the last election. On a county-by-county basis, Obama won in all the areas with unusually low levels of educational achievement. Aside from these areas, essentially the only areas he won were the areas containing unusually high percentages of extreme liberals.

Again, source? More highly educated academics endorsed Obama over McCain. 61 Nobel laureates supported Obama compared to 0 for McCain. Voting is more on political preference though and not intelligence. Also socialism and intelligence has no correlation as Cuba ranks higher (13) than the USA (20) on the educational index.
 
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shernren

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Also socialism and intelligence has no correlation as Cuba ranks higher (13) than the USA (20) on the educational index.

Of course, that's what they want you to think.

Clearly you have already been brainwashed.

;)
 
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The Barbarian

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And it worked. If you don't believe it, check out the last election. On a county-by-county basis, Obama won in all the areas with unusually low levels of educational achievement. Aside from these areas, essentially the only areas he won were the areas containing unusually high percentages of extreme liberals.

Hmm... doesn't seem to hold up very well. He lost in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, New Mexico, and Arkansas, all quite low states. And he swept the upper midwest, the best-educated region of the USA.

Looks like someone sold you a bill of goods.
 
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champuru

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Of course, that's what they want you to think.

Clearly you have already been brainwashed.

;)

must divide all of my possessions equally with my comrads. i pledge allegiance to Karl Marx. *snaps out of it* I think you're right!
;)
 
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gluadys

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Well, even though I went to a public high school in California, I never heard a word about evolution. I don't know why. Maybe some Creationists had the same experience and never learned about it. There's also intelligent people out there who get the jist of evolution and still don't think it can explain everything about the diversity of life.

I am not too surprised that I never heard a word about evolution in high school. After all, that was in the '50s. But you are only 21 and you never heard anything about evolution in high school!!!

Indeed, this is all too common an experience. No wonder so many Americans question the idea. Apparently, it is still true that more churches speak about (against) evolution than schools do.

Getting evolution into school curricula is as much a struggle as keeping pseudo-science out.
 
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christianmomof3

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Do you know the full title of the Book Origin of the Species by Charles Darwin? It is On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life and in his next book, Darwin suggested that inferior races would die out leaving the superior white race only. It is a racist treatise that was used to justify British colonialism and later influenced Hitler in his "master race" theory.
Microevolution does indeed occur. But macroevolution does not. It goes against the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
 
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Mallon

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Do you know the full title of the Book Origin of the Species by Charles Darwin? It is On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life and in his next book, Darwin suggested that inferior races would die out leaving the superior white race only. It is a racist treatise that was used to justify British colonialism and later influenced Hitler in his "master race" theory.
1) The use of the word "race" by Darwin was not meant in the sense we use it today. See:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA005_2.html
2) Hitler also justified himself with reference to Christianity. As did the Crusades. This in no way negates the teachings of Christianity. Nor does Hitler's abuse of evolution negate its teachings.

Microevolution does indeed occur. But macroevolution does not. It goes against the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
This is nonsense because macroevolution operates largely by the same processes as microevolution, only over longer time scales.
More here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001.html
 
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gluadys

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Do you know the full title of the Book Origin of the Species by Charles Darwin? It is On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life
Means nothing. Language changes over time. (That is why we need new translations of the bible from time to time--to keep up with the changes in how we speak English.) In Victorian English "races" simply meant "varieties" or "breeds". It did not have the more restricted meaning we give it today. When was the last time you heard anyone speak of "races" of roses or mosquitoes? But that is the meaning of Darwin's usage.




Microevolution does indeed occur. But macroevolution does not. It goes against the 2nd law of thermodynamics.


Speaking of word meanings, do you know the meaning of "thermodynamics" and can you explain the 2nd law of thermodynamics in reference to thermodynamics?
 
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The Barbarian

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Do you know the full title of the Book Origin of the Species by Charles Darwin? It is On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life and in his next book, Darwin suggested that inferior races would die out leaving the superior white race only.
He was observing what whites were doing in his day. And that's what they were doing. He objected, BTW, infuriating the creationist captain of the Beagle by arguing that slavery was wrong.

And, as you learned. "Races" didn't mean then what it does now. Someone lacking honesty misrepresented the title to you. Fool you once, shame on them. Fool you twice, shame on you.

It is a racist treatise that was used to justify British colonialism and later influenced Hitler in his "master race" theory.
No. He said very little about it in his book. But he wrote a later book, The Descent of Man, in which he wrote:

Nor could we check our sympathy, even at the urging of
hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our
nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation,
for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if
we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could
only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present evil.


The largest part of the Nazi "Final Solution" was written by Martin Luther, in The Jews and Their Lies, and the Nazis freely credited him for it. If you like, I can show you Luther's recommendations, and the Wannsee Protocol, so you can compare them.

Microevolution does indeed occur. But macroevolution does not.
The first directly observed example was seen in 1904. Would you like to learn about some of them?

It goes against the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
\

Interesting. Show us your calculations.
 
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christianmomof3

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Do you know the full title of the Book Origin of the Species by Charles Darwin? It is On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life
Means nothing. Language changes over time. (That is why we need new translations of the bible from time to time--to keep up with the changes in how we speak English.) In Victorian English "races" simply meant "varieties" or "breeds". It did not have the more restricted meaning we give it today. When was the last time you heard anyone speak of "races" of roses or mosquitoes? But that is the meaning of Darwin's usage.



Speaking of word meanings, do you know the meaning of "thermodynamics" and can you explain the 2nd law of thermodynamics in reference to thermodynamics?
In his second book - and I don't have it here to quote it exactly, Darwin said that the "negros" would die out.

As far as the second law of thermodynamics - it is basically entropy. Things go from order to disorder.
 
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The Barbarian

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In his second book - and I don't have it here to quote it exactly, Darwin said that the "negros" would die out.
He assumed that the processes going on in his time (Europeans rapidly killing off natives in other parts of the world) would go on. If they had, he would have been right. Indeed, in many cases, such as the Tasmanians, many indian tribes, and so on, he was right. He considered it an "overwhelming evil," BTW, and wrote that in one of his books.

As far as the second law of thermodynamics - it is basically entropy. Things go from order to disorder.
No. Might be good to learn about it. If things go from order to disorder, how does a plant grow from a seed? How does a disordered tropical depression become a highly ordered hurricane?

You're missing something important. Worth checking out.
 
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gluadys

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Do you know the full title of the Book Origin of the Species by Charles Darwin? It is On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life
In his second book - and I don't have it here to quote it exactly, Darwin said that the "negros" would die out.

SeeBarbarian's answer.

As far as the second law of thermodynamics - it is basically entropy. Things go from order to disorder.

Of course, it is basically entropy. But what is entropy? It is not "things go from order to disorder". In fact, thermodynamically (and it is a law of thermodynamics) you could say it is the reverse.
 
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Mallon

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In his second book - and I don't have it here to quote it exactly, Darwin said that the "negros" would die out.
When you do get your hands on the book, could you please quote it exactly? Because there's little point in debating heresay.
Regardless, let's suppose that Darwin was like every other Victorian of his time and did make a few racist remarks in his day -- does that in any way invalidate his theory? As the Barbarian pointed out, Luther was a blatant racist, but does that in any way negate his fundamental realization that we are saved by faith alone?

As far as the second law of thermodynamics - it is basically entropy. Things go from order to disorder.
I don't think you read the link I provided earlier, so I'll link to it again:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001.html
Specifically, read the part about the earth being an open system. If every system tended towards increasing entropy at all times, you would never see things like snowflakes or crystals.

Really, christianmomof3, it might be worth your time checking out this list:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html
There are very few anti-evolution claims out there that haven't already been addressed here.
 
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lucaspa

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Do you know the full title of the Book Origin of the Species by Charles Darwin? It is On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life

Yes, but do you know how "races" was used in Darwin's day?

In biology "races" and "variety" were the same. So there were "races/varieties" of oaks and barnacles and elephants, etc. In terms of humans "race" referred to much smaller groupings than the 3 "races" used later. The Irish were a "race", so were the people of Tierra del Fuego, Tahiti, the French, the Germans, etc.

and in his next book, Darwin suggested that inferior races would die out leaving the superior white race only.

You haven't ever read the quote, have you? This is it:
"The great break in the organic chain between man and his nearest allies, which cannot be bridged over by any extinct or living species, has often been advanced as a grave objection to the belief that man is descended from some lower form; but this objection will not appear of much weight to those who, from general reasons, believe in the general principle of evolution. Breaks often occur in all parts of the series, some being wide, sharp and defined, others less so in various degrees; as between the orang and its nearest allies— between the Tarsius and the other Lemuridæ—between the elephant, and in a more striking manner between the Ornithorhynchus or Echidna, and all other mammals. But these breaks depend merely on the number of related forms which have become extinct. At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked,18 will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla."

1. Darwin never mentioned "white race". Instead, he talked about "civilized races", plural.
2. The quote is explaining the apparent "gap" between apes and humans, not about racism.

It is a racist treatise that was used to justify British colonialism and later influenced Hitler in his "master race" theory.

Actually, Origin of Species is against both. For instance, look at this quote:
"The doctrine of the origin of our several domestic races from several aboriginal stocks, has been carried to an absurd extreme by some authors. The believe that every race which breeds true, let the distinctive characters be ever so slight, has had its wild prototype." page 40.

This blows away the idea that the British or even "Aryan" races are distinct.

In reality, Hitler got his racism from creationism. He viewed races as distinct creations and Nazi racism is traced back to Gobineau, not Darwin. As just one example of Hitler's views, here's a quote by Hitler:
"The two Christian denominations look on with indifference at the profanation and destruction of a noble and unique creature who was given to the world as a gift of God’s grace. For the future of the world, however, it does not matter which of the two triumphs over the other, the Catholic or the Protestant. But it does matter whether Aryan humanity survives or perishes. And yet the two Christian denominations are not contending against the destroyer of Aryan humanity but are trying to destroy one another. Everybody who has the right kind of feeling for his country is solemnly bound, each within his own denomination, to see to it that he is not constantly talking about the Will of God merely from the lips but that in actual fact he fulfils the Will of God and does not allow God’s handiwork to be debased. For it was by the Will of God that men were made of a certain bodily shape, were given their natures and their faculties. Whoever destroys His work wages war against God’s Creation and God’s Will." Mein Kampf (p.310)

Microevolution does indeed occur. But macroevolution does not. It goes against the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

:blush: I am embarrassed for you. If the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics were violated in going from the simple to complex, you could not be here. After all, you started as a relatively simple single cell and are now a very complex organism of trillions of cells.

What this means is that the SLOT does not work the way you think it does. Local increases in order and complexity can happen as long as the total disorder of the universe inceases. And that is what happens. I can explain this in greater detail if you want.

In short, you have been listening to people who have given you a lot of false witness. I know you trusted them but, I'm sorry to say, they betrayed your trust. We are trying to give you the correct information. We hope you will be able to listen.
 
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lucaspa

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The second law of thermodynamics speaks of a closed/isolated system. The earth is not so.

To be more precise, SLOT speaks of systems and surroundings:

"First, it must be emphasized that in entropy calculations it is important to distinguish between the system and the surroundings of the system. The system is that part on which we focus our attention. It may be part of a mechanical system, or more chemically, a gas, liquid, solid, or a reaction mixture. The surroundings constitute all other parts that might interact with the system. The surroundings will most frequently consist of heat reservoirs that can add to or subtract heat from the system or mechanical devices which can do work on or accept work from that system. The entropy change, not only of the system but also of the surroundings, will be of interest, and it will be important in all entropy considerations to distinguish these components clearly. The combination of the system and its surroundings correspond to an "isolated system", as suggested in Fig. 7.4, since the process being considered affects nothing outside of the system and its surroundings" pg 191-192. Physical Chemistry by Gordon M. Barrow

For general puposes, the solar system can be considered an "isolated system". And yes, the entropy of the solar system is increasing. The decrease in entropy represented by life on earth is overwhelmed by the increase in entropy as the sun converts matter to energy by fusion.
 
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sfs

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For general puposes, the solar system can be considered an "isolated system". And yes, the entropy of the solar system is increasing. The decrease in entropy represented by life on earth is overwhelmed by the increase in entropy as the sun converts matter to energy by fusion.
The solar system is very far from being an isolated system, and really can't be treated as one for thermodynamics purposes. The solar system radiates large amounts of energy (essentially the entire output of the sun) into interstellar space, which can be approximated as a 3 K heat reservoir.

What you can do is calculate approximately how much entropy the earth receives via sunlight and how much it radiates away into space. If you go through the calculation, you will find that the earth generates large amounts of entropy. Basically, the earth receives high energy photons from the sun and radiates a much larger number of lower energy photons back into space; the latter have a higher entropy. All kinds of complex systems can occur in the process.

On the original claim, it has to be wrong that an increase in complexity implies a violation of the Second Law. If it did violate it, then nothing could ever become more complex, anywhere. That includes the results of human activities: humans can no more violate the laws of physics than anything else can. So if humans can construct complex systems, than constructing complex systems does not violate the SLOT.
 
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