Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

[Disciple37]

once again there is justification being used to explain why they wandered away from the true church.
as if God could not preserve the Church He founded, and it had to be 'rescued' by men.

Is Constantine your God? Where in Scripture does Jesus say he founded the Roman Catholic Church? Where in Scripture does Paul say appoint me a pope to be my successor? When the Bible does it say a priest absolves you of sins?

And of course there was justification for leaving he church. We were being burned alive because we were transcribing the Bible so we could read it.

 

[pdudgeon]

Is Constantine your God? Where in Scripture does Jesus say he founded the Roman Catholic Church? Where in Scripture does Paul say appoint me a pope to be my successor? When the Bible does it say a priest absolves you of sins?

And of course there was justification for leaving he church. We were being burned alive because we were transcribing the Bible so we could read it.

now contrast that reason with the death of the first martyr, Stephen, and see how your reasoning holds up.

 

[Haramis]

I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?

Very simple. It's called "The Living Word" for a reason. The Bible is not just a dead collection of words printed out in ink on a page. They are a personal spiritual guide that can only be understood when read through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The differences in interpretation are to be expected. The Bible can't produce the same interpretations to everyone. This is a design, not a bug! God made all of us different, and He reaches us in different ways and speaks to us in different ways.

The error is that many humans are so full of pride that they think that if they personally come to a belief, then that interpretation of the verse is the *only* viable one, and anyone who is led by God to see something else, is in fact an evil heretic.
This is the mark of someone who is not humbly following God.

God moves us all in different ways. We have so many different denominations because God designed it that way. There is no "one size fits all". God has a custom message, just for you. He does for everyone.

Just as the print of the finger you use to hold the Bible in place is one of a kind, so too is the spiritual fingerprint you use to trace over God's Word.

 

[daleksteve]

Christian disagree mainly because at the end of the day we are imperfect Human Beings.

I dislike the extreme side of Christianity and i don't like the way the bible is often used to oppress women and control people. i have been shocked over the years at how bits of scripture can be twisted to fit just about anything.

I am what you would call a common sense Christian and I try and stay clear of all the religious dogma.

 

[prodromos]

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

From the point of view of the Orthodox Church, the only way someone is able to correctly understand the Scriptures is if they have acquired godly stillness, purification of the heart from passions, and illumination of the mind. One cannot be a pure vessel for the Holy Spirit if one does not live a life of prayer and repentance and is prone to disordered passions such as lust, greed and anger.

 

[JacksBratt]

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

I guess it has already been said that Christians are human and thus are fallible. This is true.

Watch a movie or read a book that other people have read and you will get many different critiques of the story and the way it was presented.

My advice, here, is to forget about all the theological arguments.

When we come to being a true believer, we must come as children, even babies. New believers need the basic milk of the scriptures. You don't feed a baby a T-bone steak and mug of beer.

So, without any attempt at being condescending or insulting or offensive in any way, you should take things one step at at time.

Let's start with the basic premise of the Gospel. You are, as everyone else on this earth, a sinner. Thus, you, like every other human, cannot enter an eternal life in the presence of God or Jesus.

So, before you dig into the 8 course dinner, lets get to the milk.

If you believe you are a sinner and need to be forgiven and are sorry for these sins. The first step is to admit it to Christ, ask for forgiveness and turn your life, your heart and attitude to a new direction.

After this, you will slowly grow and thirst for more knowledge and eventually be able to tear of a tough piece of steak and chew on it with the rest of them.

Many of the topics, so fearcefully argued about, here, are of no real consequence to the salvation and eternal destination of the participants.

So, before you get into the meat, start with the milk.

 

[fhansen]

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

It's fairly simple really; Jesus established a church for the purpose of receiving, preserving, and spreading the truth, the faith. Scripture was never intended to serve as a catechism.

 

[rrguy]

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

Athee

The same question has been in my head for years. Yes allot took place 2000 years ago and to discuss scholars have to learn from a teacher to interpret another language. Although the teacher may be bias and pass this on, in the end if we were all guided by The Holy Spirit at least the wise would agree? So my only thought is we allow our own thoughts & ungodly steer us wrong at least on one teaching or another?

 

[DawnStar]

Athée,
As you can tell from the differences in opinion in the replies that have been given in this thread it is incredibly difficult to say who is led by the spirit and who is not. The Catholics say they are the true church. The Protestants disagree. The Baptists say they are the true church. It is all ridiculous and from the outside looking in I can see why you would be scratching your head because if Christians are truly led by the spirit they we should all be on the same page. But we are not. And we never will be until He returns.
One thing most all of us DO agree on is that Christ came down from heaven and was born as a man. Lived a sinless life and was innocent. Was crucified as the ultimate sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Was resurrected and ascending back to heaven and will come back to us again. The belief in these basics is the foundation for all of Christianity. This is what the spirit leads us all to believe.
Anything beyond that which causes disagreement in my opinion is not spirit led. It is all man led.
God bless you in your search.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?

How about this for an answer: The Bible doesn't actually, nor specifically, teach this idea that many Christians hang onto ... (i.e. "when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit.")

The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[jamespyles]

That's an excellent question and one I've asked more than once.

The simplest answer I got from a Pastor at a church I used to attend was "sin". Apparently, our sinful nature gets in the way of the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

However, like you, I believe if that were the case, then there should still be widespread agreement among mature Christians, and there isn't. Even within a single church, I've found not all people agree on every single theological detail.

A lot of tradition has crept into Christianity since its inception that has tended to obscure the original meaning and intent of the Bible authors. One of the reasons that Christians generally disagree is because those traditions tend to get in the way, and we've elevated them from interpretations to Biblical truth.

I used to fight the "religious wars," both online and face-to-face and it finally wore me down. Instead, I try to find the commonality between me and my brothers and sisters in Christ, and when I can't find that or the differences are too great to overcome, I try to keep my mouth shut.

 

[SharonL]

When trying to understand the Bible if you understand the history it will help. The Old Testament was written for us, but not too us. It was written strictly for the Jews and their works. The New Testament was written for us and is the period of Grace. When Jesus died on the cross, He completed the period of works as Jesus died for all our sins and ushered in the period of Grace.

This is where the Holy Spirit enters in - all the prophets and writers of the Scriptures in the New Testament were all led by the Holy Spirit. When you become a Child of God, the Holy Spirit dwells within you. That does not mean you will hear a voice to guide you - it is a heart thing. As you read the Scriptures they will become more and more alive to you. You can see our future lined out as the Bible opens up and the things that are happening today are all outlined in Scripture. We are closing into 'the end of the ages' and nothing more needs to happen before the Rapture of the church. Just open your Bible and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you through it - it is the Living Word and we are living it just as it says.

 

[hanakins]

I think you're forgetting that while God is infallible, humans are conditioned by society since in the womb.

If every day of your life everyone around you tells you the sky is green and that green looks like the sky, and then you meet someone who says "the sky is blue" you simply wont accept it - if someone asks you the colour of the sky you will tell them as you've been taught forever

a bit of a silly example, but people can argue simply because of social conditioning in churches, books they read or simply through not having studied enough.

 

[marineimaging]

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

I used to think that EVERY real truth would be manifested by all men agreeing to the same premise and the same result and all of them would arrive at same conclusion in the same way. Like a math equation - real truth was absolute so if men could find a crack in the premise to argue about, it must be a lie.

If we are letting outside circumstances determine our faith then we can be swayed by the changing direction of the wind? If you break up with this lovely woman are you going to throw away all you learned and embrace your atheism again? IF so, I dare say you will always be struggling with this search because you are looking for the wrong thing. So, again, is it the success of others in agreeing with each other that will make or break your trust in Jesus? If so, what is the difference between a million atheists and a million devout Jews and a million devout Islamist? Are any of them seeking the truth, or all of them certain they have found it?

We know that Jesus existed. That is not in dispute. That he was in mans flesh? That is not arguable. That goodness is desirable, in my heart that is not a question either. No, their argument is that He was the Son of God, that He is the Messiah, that HE is the truth, the light, and the way and that no man comes to the Father (God) except through Him (Jesus). So, if you don't believe wholeheartedly and entirely and with unshakeable certainty that your search is for Jesus and His Truth, then you are on a path to nowhere. You are wasting your time. You may as well find satisfaction with being an atheist because that is all you will ever be.

The core of my belief in God finally became the Bible. Looking around there are literally hundreds of bibles and biblical versions and a million interpretations. I choose the KJV because I understand it. I would not presume to tell you which to use, but I would look to the Bible as your source of understanding. Not what others think. And I would recommend that you not use others as an excuse to believe or deny. Your relationship with Jesus is personal. It has to be. It is about YOUR salvation and how Jesus plays a part in that.

Why did He do what he did? It was as simple as Love. Why do you believe? If it is not based on Love of Christ, then I say again, you are wasting your time. Love of the truth, Love of God, Love of your fellow man, Love of all that is Holy..., man, without these desires in your heart there is no finding truth. That is why men argue all the time. They argue about trivialities, not about the depth and breadth of the Love of Christ. And don't let their arguments determine the depth and breadth of your desire to find the truth. Seek it for the sake of finding the one and only Son of God and through him, you will find the truth.

 

[David Vogel]

Note:
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?

Forgive me if I'm repeating some of what others have said. I thought this was a great question and wanted to offer a quick reply, but don't have time to read all the other responses to see if I'm being redundant...

I think the most important point to remember is that the Holy Spirit is working in real human beings. It's the same reason I can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit (as are all Christians, cf Acts 2:38-39) and be being sanctified by Him, yet still sin at times. God doesn't turn us into marionettes on strings when He saves us---he make us new, but by gradual transformation rather than sudden removal of our own mind and volition. That was why, for example, in Acts 15 the early church (including the apostles!) had to sit down to discuss and debate to determine how to deal with Gentile Christians. Similarly, the church debated the appropriate books to include in the canon of Scripture. The guidance of the Holy Spirit ensured that eventually the correct books were included, but at the human level the process required discussion to reach consensus. (I just taught a seminar on the process of canonicity which covered the human means / divine sovereignty angle in a way that you might find useful.)

In light of how the Scripture portrays what it means to be indwelt and taught by the Spirit, I think the better question would be why we would expect not to have disagreements. Of course, some disagreement comes from sin, but even if that could be removed from the equation then you would still have finite, fallen human beings trying to understand the things of God. Unless God gave us a divine mind implant to perfectly discern his truth, we should expect to sometimes disagree with other Christians. Part of "seeing through a glass dimly" in this life (I Cor 13:12). Of course, we should pray that these disagreements take place with a spirit of humility and grace (again, Acts 15 offering a good model...).

 

[seeking633]

I've just been re-reading the book of Acts. I was initially prompted to build on my understanding of why Paul went to Jerusalem in spite of persistent warnings from the Holy Spirit that he'd be delivered as a prisoner into the hands of the Gentiles (the Romans, and all they ruled). I've had an argument in the past about this with a Christian brother who had insisted that this was Paul's folly, the error which brought unnecessary trouble on him. I have never believed this. There was a reason he did this and in Acts 21:14, it is recorded that he even said "The will of the Lord be done!". This looks like a dilemma. He's doing the will of the Lord while seemingly acting against the warnings of the Holy Spirit. Why is that? I cannot simply give in to the knee-jerk assumption that he was wrong.

It can be argued that if Paul had not be arrested and put in a Roman prison, he would not have written all those letters which make up about half of what we know to the New Testament. But this is just an assumption. I believe the letters, the instructions, advice, and counsel would have been given to the Gentiles regardless. The rocks themselves would have shouted it out. So what else can we say?

We know that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth. Whatever has happened in the past, is in the present, and is going to happen in the future, He will tell us if it's important in our role within the body of Christ, in spite of what we may believe.

I think it's the same with our disagreement on what the scriptures are actually telling us. The Holy Spirit will settle the issue. We just have to find our place in Christ. Wait on the Lord. Do not worry about tomorrow. And do not encourage dissent among the faithful.

 

[Widlast]

OK, so is there an actual truth of the matter or is each denomination right in its own way?

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There is an absolute truth to any matter. "right in it's own way" is functionally equivalent to "wrong in some way".

 

[Athée]

And that leads me to say that sometimes we leave a church organization, not because of their doctrine or intellectual stand... but because they have lost those spiritual qualities that once made them great.

That is an interesting observation but I think perhaps one that is beat suited to a different thread as it doesn't really bear on the question of disagreement among Christians over scripture.
Thanks for your contributions though

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[Athée]

Lead, yes; whisper direct interpretation and understanding into the mind or ear, not especially (I've not seen any evidence of it, and it begs the question of, why doesn't everyone then agree?). The analogue of the student body and the text exploration is the means of guidance. The Holy Spirit is that spirit that causes someone to seek truth through rigorous pursuit. If a person says "I'm going to seek to understand the truth of these things, and examine scripture, and debate and discuss" then I would reply, "That's the Holy Spirit!" in the same sense as if a person said "I'm really going to practice my passing so I can throw touchdowns in the game this week" I'd reply (if the coach), "That's the spirit!"

That's interesting, you seem to have a much more passive view of the Holy spirt than I usually hear. Why do you think so many Christians think that the holy Spirit does lead the believer into all truth in a more active way?

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[Athée]

Regarding the first part, have you ever felt a peace of understanding about a verse and then later (maybe even years later) been exposed to a new perspective on that verse and changed your mind on its meaning?
Why do you think God allows Satan to sow confusion when he also says that he is not the author of confusion?
Also just a point of clarification you seemed to ay that this is specifically the fault of Christian men, did you mean Christians in general?

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