Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Athee, The reason why your group ended with the guys saying they don't have a answer for this problem, is because they are ones causing the problem and there are many who do this.

Here is the problem: When a group of "Cool Guys" get together for Bible Study and try to interpret Scripture, doing so is wrong. Why? Because the whole of the Bible has already been interpreted by the Church, in it's infancy aka Catholic Church.

Since the Protestant Reformation in the 15th century to this very day there are many, some say over 33,000 protestant churches and counting having the problem of different interpretations of Scripture that these "Cool Guys" can't answer.

Here is the answer: Follow the first and only interpretation of the whole Bible/Scripture, of the Catholic Church and you will not go wrong, all other interpretations of Scripture is what is causing the Disagreement that you wrote of. Amen

Well, that's all fine for you to say, but actually, its my own church that's perfect and right and all the others, including yours, that is off to the degree they disagree with my church.

It says so right here.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?

In other words what I'm saying is that, what you heard, isn't necessarily the case. If you were in a Catholic study group, you wouldn't be discussing "when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit" you would be discussing how the truth of the bible is revealed by the hierarchy of the church. There are myriad churches that would inform you that "you heard wrong"

 

[rockytopva]

Sorry , it might just be me but I am really not understanding your position and how it relates to the OP.
Thanks again

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I belong to a Pentecostal Holiness church. In the old days they had sweet, warm, joyful, loving spirits. When built the denomination on the theological seminary, all those virtues basically dissipate away. As spiritual virtue is neither mass or knowledge, they did not know what left them.

SO what I am trying to say is that just because people have become perfect in mind and church doctrine, does not mean they are spiritual.

 

[Athée]

Spiritual E/c2 is not mass or knowledge... It can leave us without us knowing or seeing its effects. So therefore the Christian should not feel he has arrived in this life...

OK well thanks for your input. If there is someone else on this thread who can help me see the relevance of all this I will be grateful. In the meantime, since I clearly am not understanding your perspective and how it is pertinent I am going to refrain from further comment.
Peace, and thanks for joining the thread

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[Athée]

We wouldn't have a better equivalence because your analogy is a false equivalence. Meaning, the author isn't standing at the front to be questioned. If you're saying, the author is standing at the front to be questioned, then that's an interpretation of the partial understood text. In other words, suppose your group claims this, and I ask, "Why are you saying the author is offering to directly communicate what the text actually means?" and you say? "Because my girlfriend told me"? Your question to me then becomes my question to you: if what you're saying is a correct understanding of the text, then why don't we all agree?

Hmm. ..maybe our analogy is getting in the way. Do you think christians have access to the Holy Spirit and that the holy Spirit will lead the believer into all truth?

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[rockytopva]

OK well thanks for your input. If there is someone else on this thread who can help me see the relevance of all this I will be grateful. In the meantime, since I clearly am not understanding your perspective and how it is pertinent I am going to refrain from further comment.
Peace, and thanks for joining the thread

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How can I explain the love and the virtue that comes from God as it is neither material or intellectual? If you fall in love with someone it is something that happens within the heart and oftentimes can cause you to do irrational things.

 

[rockytopva]

And that leads me to say that sometimes we leave a church organization, not because of their doctrine or intellectual stand... but because they have lost those spiritual qualities that once made them great.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Hmm. ..maybe our analogy is getting in the way. Do you think christians have access to the Holy Spirit and that the holy Spirit will lead the believer into all truth?

Lead, yes; whisper direct interpretation and understanding into the mind or ear, not especially (I've not seen any evidence of it, and it begs the question of, why doesn't everyone then agree?). The analogue of the student body and the text exploration is the means of guidance. The Holy Spirit is that spirit that causes someone to seek truth through rigorous pursuit. If a person says "I'm going to seek to understand the truth of these things, and examine scripture, and debate and discuss" then I would reply, "That's the Holy Spirit!" in the same sense as if a person said "I'm really going to practice my passing so I can throw touchdowns in the game this week" I'd reply (if the coach), "That's the spirit!"

 

[Disciple37]

Happy to clarify. If there is as you say one true reading of scripture (and do you believe you have that? Just curious ), then the holy Spirit should be teaching that exact same truth to all Christians. I wonder then why there is so much disagreement. Your post suggested that our freewill to choose may be partly responsible but in this case you would have true Christians who love God enough to have the holy Spirit indwelling them, still choosing to not admit to the truth the spirit reveals to them. Moreover free will actually doesn't seem to make sense if you also belive in Satan. He does in fact know the truth about God but still chooses freely not to worship. But maybe I am the one getting ahead of myself now

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I have A LOT i want to say. I am doing my best to organize this correctly and not confuse you or get to far ahead or into things as many of the things I am giving you takes a lot of studying of scripture and praying. Please ask me to clarify at any time or say that you're confused so I can try to make things clear as possible.

I will clearly state on scripture that i am still praying about and seeking understanding. I want to be 100% sure and not 90% sure. So if i am only 90% sure of something, I will mention in some way that I am still studying this meaning and verse. I am not claiming I have 100% knowledge of the scripture. If I am not mistaken, there are still things that are hidden in the Bible that are just now being revealed and more to come at the right time. (Pertaining to the end of days) I am 25 years old and the Lord God still has much to teach me. However, He has blessed me greatly and He has given me a good bit of understanding of scripture. This may sound strange to you, but in my heart i feel a sense of peace about a verse and teaching when i come to its understanding. When i come to a teaching or verse that I have "could" mean this and this I will state it as such, give the interpretation argument from the countering views and then do my best to explain WHY i believe one view over another. However, If I do not state to the person, even in this forum, at least two opposing arguments for it's meaning, and why i believe one way, then i believe i have the 100% truth of that verse or teaching.

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First, we must understand your freewill gives you two main choices. What does this mean? You have two choices and only two choices. You are for God (Jesus) or you are for satan (rebelling against God). There is no in-between, there are no other gods (demons or myths) that can save you from hell, there is no other salvation except through Christ. You have two choices to choose from. Destruction or Life. (satan or Christ Jesus).

Getting on the topic of satan can lead to another complicated and indepth discussion. So i dont want to get too far off on this. I wish I could teach you everything right now, but I have so much i need to say now, I'm already overwhelmed. lol This is what we know of satan and good reason why we have so much division among our brothers.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

From here, you see that Satan is infiltrating the church. Even way back in the day. He's had hundreds of years of planting false seeds, no matter how small, to weaken the churches position and it has worked. Not because we couldn't stop it, but because we didn't obey the word of God and do as instructed. We didn't listen to the Holy Spirit. However, that Holy Spirit is still ministering if you will listen, if you will seek God. You can be a beacon of truth to the church and those around you and not caught up in tradition, denominations, religion, but caught up in the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is his plan. Look at the division among the church over small things. Look at the denominations today. What satan planned was for division to occur. If division occurred, that would limit the testimony of the church, goals, and resources. Take yourself for example. Look what we've done by allowing the church to be split, we've given a bad example to unbelievers and it hurts my heart deeply to see what this division has done. It is confusing to none believers. Satan's planned worked, at least in part. Now, we need more Christians standing up for what it is right, preaching to believers, teaching them. Their denomination is the Lord Jesus Christ, not pentecostal, not baptist, not Lutheran.

There's much more detail to this I am leaving out, and feel free to ask. But the largest division occurred during the protestant reformation. The actions and sins of the Catholic Church caused many believers to split off into Lutheran, Reformed, Anabaptist, and Anglican. The persecution from the Catholic (universal) church, that Satan penetrated during those times caused division that, in my opinion, had to have happened as the Catholic church during those times were evil. So we are beginning to see Satan's plan in a way. Divide and conquer which he cannot conquer the church. So divide and harass.

So the divisions of the church are because of deception that christian men allowed. You have a choice, even as a Christian, to listen to the holy spirit or not. Though, God will only allow satan to do so much (He is restrained by the Holy Spirit and does the restraining through Christians). So sin and Lawlessness are restrained by the faithful, but as you see, sin still exists.

I still have A LOT to add, but i'll stop here to allow you to read and ask any questions. I may not have answered your question the way you wanted just yet as there's a lot to try and teach you before i can even really answer it.

 

[pdudgeon]

OK, so is there an actual truth of the matter or is each denomination right in its own way?

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short answer here--yes, there is an actual truth which is very easily provable via the old schoolyard game called "telephone".

two teams of people are formed as the 'receivers".
Then the person that is 'it' whispers a message in the person's ear who is first in each line. that person then whispers to the next person in their line what they heard, etc.
when the end of the line is reached, the last person says the message that they heard out loud.
and then the original message is revealed.

there are 2 morals to the story;
1. be careful how you hear.
2. the further one is away from the original message, the greater the
possibility of error.

and those are the real reasons that there is so much variation in the church, as was proved even in Jesus' time between what He taught and what the scribes, Pharisees, and Saducees believed.

 

[pdudgeon]

It ses to me that your analogy is missing an equivalence for the Holy Spirit. How would the situation play out if the person who had made the odd inscription whispered the exact same translation into everyone's ear and they all knew that this was the truth of the matter?

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very easy.
The Holy Spirit does indeed whisper the same thing into every person's ear who willl listen.

the key is how do they hear what the Holy Spirit says?
is there garbage (sin) in their lives that gets mixed into the message of the Holy Spirit, or are their lives a clean conduit which can then carry that message freely and deliver it unspoiled and in it's original form to the next person.

 

[pdudgeon]

Most of that is gained from scripture. Again, looking at commentary can be great, but the scripture is obvious in somethings and harder to understand in others. Men are prone to error out of spiritual weakness and many other reasons. The Scriptures often speak for themselves so far if you simply read the chapter. It's pretty self explanatory. The Bible reveals itself if you take clues from that chapter and take nothing out of context (meaning read the chapter before you just pull verses out of no where). I may post scripture without posting the entire chapter, but i always advise to read the chapter to help confirm the interoperation of the scripture.

The scripture doesn't mean what we want it to mean. It means what God meant. So the only true interpretation is what God intended to be voiced. So the Bible has one meaning and that's God meaning. There should not be two denominations, there should not be Catholics, Protestants, Pentecostals, Baptist. God does not want this for the Church, however, he has given us the option to choose and do right and wrong.

Can you clarify what you mean by what role does the holy spirit play? In what regard? Im sorry.

just to clarify, there is only One Church--the original Catholic Church originated/created by Christ and led by Peter. all other existing churches are the denominations which split from that original.

so as in all things, if you seek the truth of God you will find it preserved and handed down in the Catholic Church.

 

[Disciple37]

just to clarify, there is only One Church--the original Catholic Church originated/created by Christ and led by Peter. all other existing churches are the denominations which split from that original.

so as in all things, if you seek the truth of God you will find it preserved and handed down in the Catholic Church.

It depends on what you mean the "Catholic Church". Do you mean the Catholic religion or a Universal Church of believers? The definition of Catholic. We also had to break off from the Catholic Religion because heresy was being preached and practiced. Satan forced the the division of the church here by evil men leading the Catholic Church.

Where in Scripture does it say Peter started the Catholic Church? Are you referring to the Mother Church?

The Catholic Church is NOT the mother church. This is false doctrine. The Catholic Church does not fit the profile of Acts.

Catholicism has its origins in the time of Emperor Constantine in the fourth century.

 

[pdudgeon]

It depends on what you mean the "Catholic Church". Do you mean the Catholic religion or a Universal Church of believers? The definition of Catholic. We also had to break off from the Catholic Religion because heresy was being preached and practiced. Satan forced the the division of the church here by evil men leading the Catholic Church.

Where in Scripture does it say Peter started the Catholic Church? Are you referring to the Mother Church?

The Catholic Church is NOT the mother church. This is false doctrine.

thank you for giving us a live example of the importance of being a clean conduit for the Word of the Lord.

 

[Disciple37]

thank you for giving us a live example of the importance of being a clean conduit for the Word of the Lord.

If you're going to be make statements regarding your faith when you're teaching others, you should be prepared to defend them ... The Catholic Church is not the "Mother Church" by any means. I have nothing against Catholics either. However, I cannot stand by when you're attempting to teach a nonbeliever about the word of God and what you say is not biblical.

You are dependent on the LORD JESUS CHRIST alone. Not a pastor, not a priest, not a worship leader, not a church.

 

[pdudgeon]

Well, that's all fine for you to say, but actually, its my own church that's perfect and right and all the others, including yours, that is off to the degree they disagree with my church.

It says so right here.

did it never occur to you that every church that has left the Catholic Church has used the same reasoning; that they are the ones who are right and the church that they left is the one that is wrong?

So how is it that they never thought to go backwards to find the original Truth if every church before them was wrong?
Did they somehow miss the lesson that was contained in the parable of The Prodigal Son?

 

[Disciple37]

did it never occur to you that every church that has left the Catholic Church has used the same reasoning; that they are the ones who are right and the church that they left is the one that is wrong?

So how is it that they never thought to go backwards to find the original Truth if every church before them was wrong?
Did they somehow miss the lesson that was contained in the parable of The Prodigal Son?

If I may .. the Roman Catholic Church was started by Constantine in an attempt to unite the Roman Empire. He was partially pagan and christian and encouraged christianity adopting pagan holidays so other religions would join the church. We left the Catholic Church because of persecution, murder, and false doctrine, and heresy being preached. There was no choice but to split into another "denomination".


I am not trying to target you, but the Catholic Church is not Biblical. I apologize if you feel like I am being rude or anything of the sort.

 

[pdudgeon]

It depends on what you mean the "Catholic Church". Do you mean the Catholic religion or a Universal Church of believers? The definition of Catholic. We also had to break off from the Catholic Religion because heresy was being preached and practiced. Satan forced the the division of the church here by evil men leading the Catholic Church.

Where in Scripture does it say Peter started the Catholic Church? Are you referring to the Mother Church?

The Catholic Church is NOT the mother church. This is false doctrine. The Catholic Church does not fit the profile of Acts.

Catholicism has its origins in the time of Emperor Constantine in the fourth century.

once again, more examples of an unclean conduit-- this time going back to the 4th Century-- which means that you have stoped your search too soon.

 

[pdudgeon]

If I may .. the Roman Catholic Church was started by Constantine in an attempt to unite the Roman Empire. He was partially pagan and christian and encouraged christianity adopting pagan holidays so other religions would join the church. We left the Catholic Church because of persecution, murder, and false doctrine, and heresy being preached. There was no choice but to split into another "denomination".

I am not trying to target you, but the Catholic Church is not Biblical. I apologize if you feel like I am being rude or anything of the sort.

once again there is justification being used to explain why they wandered away from the true church.
as if God could not preserve the Church He founded, and it had to be 'rescued' by men.

 

[Disciple37]

once again, more examples of an unclean conduit-- this time going back to the 4th Century-- which means that you have stoped your search too soon.

Oh, I am an unclean conduit? How so? Is there scripture to back your claim that I am unclean at this moment? Or is this of your own personal opinion because I disagree with you?
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Early banning of the KJV of the Bible. It was banned for hundreds of years ...

Pope Pius IV had a list of the forbidden books compiled and officially
prohibited them in the Index of Trent (Index Librorum Prohibitorum) of 1559

Since experience teaches that, if the reading of the Holy Bible in the vernacular is permitted generally without discrimination, more damage than advantage will result because of the boldness of men, the judgment of bishops and inquisitors is to serve as guide in this regard. Bishops and inquisitors may, in accord with the counsel of the local priest and confessor, allow Catholic translations of the Bible to be read by those of whom they realize that such reading will not lead to the detriment but to the increase of faith and piety. The permission is to be given in writing. Whoever reads or has such a translation in his possession without this permission cannot be absolved from his sins until he has turned in these Bibles