Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

[Athée]

I used to think that EVERY real truth would be manifested by all men agreeing to the same premise and the same result and all of them would arrive at same conclusion in the same way. Like a math equation - real truth was absolute so if men could find a crack in the premise to argue about, it must be a lie.

If we are letting outside circumstances determine our faith then we can be swayed by the changing direction of the wind? If you break up with this lovely woman are you going to throw away all you learned and embrace your atheism again? IF so, I dare say you will always be struggling with this search because you are looking for the wrong thing. So, again, is it the success of others in agreeing with each other that will make or break your trust in Jesus? If so, what is the difference between a million atheists and a million devout Jews and a million devout Islamist? Are any of them seeking the truth, or all of them certain they have found it?

We know that Jesus existed. That is not in dispute. That he was in mans flesh? That is not arguable. That goodness is desirable, in my heart that is not a question either. No, their argument is that He was the Son of God, that He is the Messiah, that HE is the truth, the light, and the way and that no man comes to the Father (God) except through Him (Jesus). So, if you don't believe wholeheartedly and entirely and with unshakeable certainty that your search is for Jesus and His Truth, then you are on a path to nowhere. You are wasting your time. You may as well find satisfaction with being an atheist because that is all you will ever be.

The core of my belief in God finally became the Bible. Looking around there are literally hundreds of bibles and biblical versions and a million interpretations. I choose the KJV because I understand it. I would not presume to tell you which to use, but I would look to the Bible as your source of understanding. Not what others think. And I would recommend that you not use others as an excuse to believe or deny. Your relationship with Jesus is personal. It has to be. It is about YOUR salvation and how Jesus plays a part in that.

Why did He do what he did? It was as simple as Love. Why do you believe? If it is not based on Love of Christ, then I say again, you are wasting your time. Love of the truth, Love of God, Love of your fellow man, Love of all that is Holy..., man, without these desires in your heart there is no finding truth. That is why men argue all the time. They argue about trivialities, not about the depth and breadth of the Love of Christ. And don't let their arguments determine the depth and breadth of your desire to find the truth. Seek it for the sake of finding the one and only Son of God and through him, you will find the truth.

First let me thank you for the well written and obviously heartfelt post. There is a lot in there that I won't comment on lest we risk getting too far off topic or beginning to debate which is not the purpose of this forum. That said, towards the end you said that you now look to the bible to discern truth. Do you think that genuine Christians can read the same text, say the KJV as you use, and disagree about what it means?

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[Athée]

Forgive me if I'm repeating some of what others have said. I thought this was a great question and wanted to offer a quick reply, but don't have time to read all the other responses to see if I'm being redundant...

I think the most important point to remember is that the Holy Spirit is working in real human beings. It's the same reason I can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit (as are all Christians, cf Acts 2:38-39) and be being sanctified by Him, yet still sin at times. God doesn't turn us into marionettes on strings when He saves us---he make us new, but by gradual transformation rather than sudden removal of our own mind and volition. That was why, for example, in Acts 15 the early church (including the apostles!) had to sit down to discuss and debate to determine how to deal with Gentile Christians. Similarly, the church debated the appropriate books to include in the canon of Scripture. The guidance of the Holy Spirit ensured that eventually the correct books were included, but at the human level the process required discussion to reach consensus. (I just taught a seminar on the process of canonicity which covered the human means / divine sovereignty angle in a way that you might find useful.)

In light of how the Scripture portrays what it means to be indwelt and taught by the Spirit, I think the better question would be why we would expect not to have disagreements. Of course, some disagreement comes from sin, but even if that could be removed from the equation then you would still have finite, fallen human beings trying to understand the things of God. Unless God gave us a divine mind implant to perfectly discern his truth, we should expect to sometimes disagree with other Christians. Part of "seeing through a glass dimly" in this life (I Cor 13:12). Of course, we should pray that these disagreements take place with a spirit of humility and grace (again, Acts 15 offering a good model...).

So it sounds like at the root of things you would say, there is a truth of doctrine X according to God, but that despite the fact that the holy Spirit tries to communicate this truth to us we don't understand it because we are imperfect. Is that close?

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[Haramis]

when God says it is sin to lie he doesn't mean that it is actually sinful to lie, he means that it might be sinful for some people at some times?

Firstly, I don't think there's a lot of dispute among Christians regarding honesty. Where there is basically 100% agreement, then there is no evidence of difference. But look at the Book of Revelation. If you talk to 50 Christians, you'll get 55 interpretations of it. Is one them "right" and all the others "wrong". Perhaps. But in many cases, there is no particular universally "right" answer, and God is leading each person in a way that is personally useful to them. Not necessarily someone else.
It doesn't tend to be a binary.

Consider how it is that God can write a Bible that's so vague and poorly written that almost everyone who has ever read it, has been wrong about it? But if we say "Only a single denomination can hold correct doctrine", that's exactly what you're saying. Because even if you select the Roman Catholic Church(which is by far the largest), it still represents a minority of historical Christians. And the Roman Catholic religion of today, bears almost no resemblance to the one that existed 1,500 years ago.

That is not a flaw. God always designed it so that everyone would have different ways to reach Him. Some think that there is only one path. That's a bit off. There is one direction, with many paths, and all of them lead to Christ. The only problem lies in wandering off the path altogether.

Or if one church says yes women can be our head pastor and the one down the road say they can't, God is speaking directly into the lives of each individual congregants and telling them their interpretation of that injunction is correct? Am I understanding you properly or am I off the mark here?

More or less. Our salvation comes through Christ alone. It does not come from doctrine. God is always speaking to us in Spirit. Some things that work to edify me, are the opposite of what works to edify someone else. I've always hated fasting. My mom was really into it. It works for her, not for me. That goes down the line for practically everything.

I'm not saying there are no exceptions. Some things are clearly wrong(particularly things that involve harming others). However, there is(to my knowledge) no branch of Christianity that advocates beating your kids, or setting your business rival's office on fire. But 99% of churches are not disagreeing about things like putting out cigarettes on babies. They're disagreeing about things like what constitutes water baptism, and how important it is to pray out loud, versus in silence.

Nearly all doctrinal differences are simply personal beliefs that truly are quite harmless. And that's why they're so benign. God wouldn't lead people to bad things. But most differences are nothing of the sort.

 

[Athée]

I've just been re-reading the book of Acts. I was initially prompted to build on my understanding of why Paul went to Jerusalem in spite of persistent warnings from the Holy Spirit that he'd be delivered as a prisoner into the hands of the Gentiles (the Romans, and all they ruled). I've had an argument in the past about this with a Christian brother who had insisted that this was Paul's folly, the error which brought unnecessary trouble on him. I have never believed this. There was a reason he did this and in Acts 21:14, it is recorded that he even said "The will of the Lord be done!". This looks like a dilemma. He's doing the will of the Lord while seemingly acting against the warnings of the Holy Spirit. Why is that? I cannot simply give in to the knee-jerk assumption that he was wrong.

It can be argued that if Paul had not be arrested and put in a Roman prison, he would not have written all those letters which make up about half of what we know to the New Testament. But this is just an assumption. I believe the letters, the instructions, advice, and counsel would have been given to the Gentiles regardless. The rocks themselves would have shouted it out. So what else can we say?

We know that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth. Whatever has happened in the past, is in the present, and is going to happen in the future, He will tell us if it's important in our role within the body of Christ, in spite of what we may believe.

I think it's the same with our disagreement on what the scriptures are actually telling us. The Holy Spirit will settle the issue. We just have to find our place in Christ. Wait on the Lord. Do not worry about tomorrow. And do not encourage dissent among the faithful.

So if the spirit will settle all issues why is there still so much disagreement in your view?

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[Athée]

There is an absolute truth to any matter. "right in it's own way" is functionally equivalent to "wrong in some way".

So if there is an absolute truth to the matter what method do you use for determining what that is?

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[Monk Brendan]

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Peter
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

This is the saddest and worst interpretation of the seven churches I have ever seen. I also violently disagree with you that the 7 churches mean 7 ages.

The 7 Churches were SEVEN actual churches that existed up until the Muslim ascendancy in the 14th century. As they were all in areas controlled by Muslims, they were destroyed.

For instance, the Church of the Thessalonians was in existence from before the time that Paul wrote to them. It still exists today! As a matter of fact, I have a friend whose brother was a priest there until a couple of years ago.

OK, so is there an actual truth of the matter or is each denomination right in its own way?

There is a truth in the matter, and the Holy Spirit can lead you to that truth, but I can give you a clue. The Orthodox and Catholic Churches have had that truth, and have known that truth since Jesus ascended to heaven after the Resurrection.

But to be honest, trying to find the truth about the Holy Spirit is putting the cart before the horse. First of all, seek God.

Deuteronomy 4:29 “But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.”

Luke 12:27-31 "
27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.

30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.

31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Hopefully, this will give you some peace, and help you on your way.

 

[rockytopva]

There are spiritual qualities that goes along with great fellowship. And then there are bad spiritual things that can hinder good bible study. One of them is a spirit of Variance.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. - Galatians 5

Variance is eris in the Greek and means quarreling, contention, strife, and wrangling. If a spirit of variance is in someone they will argue with you because they have a spirit to do so...emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies... So people can disagree over scripture, not because of intellectual reasons, but because of spiritual. And these spirits can cause divisions and heresies, which is also why there are so many denominations. So my answer to the question, "Why do Christians disagree?" Is because they are not spiritually knit to agree with one another.

So my answer to your question is because it is a spiritual, not an intellectual, issue.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5

We had a Word of Faith bunch work at my factory about a decade ago. Never heard the first negative word out of any of them. Always faith and encouragement. And along with it a spirit goodness that made me feel good on the inside. I miss their fellowship!

2 And the Pharisees came to Jesus, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.
3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. - Mark 10

These are also the pleasant spiritual qualities that can put together a great relationship between a man and a woman. In reading this thread I can't help but to wonder if God himself has led you to this girl and the bible study. If so I pray that much good comes of it!

 

[seeking633]

So if the spirit will settle all issues why is there still so much disagreement in your view?

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Well as I commented in a second post, I really think that if not a few, then no-one is perfect in Christ. We are moved by the spirit yet to error in how we respond. In my own experience anyway. And so we make the wrong decisions, eat the wrong foods, line up in the wrong line at the shopping mall, get in heated arguments with other believers on this forum, etc, etc. And so we miss what the Lord is trying to say, and He is patient as we are saved by grace.

 

[rockytopva]

This is the saddest and worst interpretation of the seven churches I have ever seen. I also violently disagree with you that the 7 churches mean 7 ages.

The 7 Churches were SEVEN actual churches that existed up until the Muslim ascendancy in the 14th century. As they were all in areas controlled by Muslims, they were destroyed.

For instance, the Church of the Thessalonians was in existence from before the time that Paul wrote to them. It still exists today! As a matter of fact, I have a friend whose brother was a priest there until a couple of years ago.



There is a truth in the matter, and the Holy Spirit can lead you to that truth, but I can give you a clue. The Orthodox and Catholic Churches have had that truth, and have known that truth since Jesus ascended to heaven after the Resurrection.

But to be honest, trying to find the truth about the Holy Spirit is putting the cart before the horse. First of all, seek God.

Deuteronomy 4:29 “But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.”

Luke 12:27-31 "
27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.

30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.

31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Hopefully, this will give you some peace, and help you on your way.

We are different congregations, so we see the interpretations differently. Which is another reason Christians disagree, it is because we do not share the same congregational beliefs. Seven congregations...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Peter
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - 2:1

I prefer to believe that the congregations are seven. I simply do not mind walking as Christ walks, among the seven congregations...

Ephesus - Messianic - Good Messianic people here!
Smyrna - Martyr - Praying for the persecuted church abroad!
Pergamos - Orthodox - Would love to visit the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople one day! beautiful churches!
Thyatira - Catholic - I enjoy watching EWTN
Sardis - Protestant - I will support Baptist functions from time to time, especially the Falwell ministry in Lynchburg.
Philadelphia - I am a member of a Wesleyan Pentecostal church
Laodicea - Charismatic - I do enjoy the fellowship from Charismatic / Word of Faith believers.

You see the churches however you feel like it...

 

[Monk Brendan]

Important correction. Every believer has the anointing of the Holy Spirit that the Holy Spirit will teach him. It's very important that all Christians understand that they need to rely on only Jesus Christ. Not on man or church to teach them scripture. Teaching from a man of God is great, however, we as believers are not dependent on teachers for we are given the greatest teacher of all. The Holy Spirit.

First of all Disciple 37, should we not talk to this atheist about believing in Jesus? It makes no difference where he is going if he doesn't seek God with all his heart and soul. He himself said, "

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

"

He doesn't need cool guys. He doesn't need counseling about what the 7 Churches mentioned in Revelation mean. Nor does he need a "Road" to get him to the Holy Spirit. What he needs is to seek the Lord. Then we can argue about the other stuff.

 

[RBPerry]

When Jesus was asked what is the greatest commandment he said “Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself”.

You have stated you are an atheist, so consequently you don’t believe in God, or a god. So, you are attempting to understand spiritual truths, without the guidance or ability to receive them. I don’t want to sound harsh, but I sense you are using the differences in scriptural understanding to support your atheistic beliefs.

Jesus said “I stand at the door and knock…… “What he is saying if you truly seek him, he will reveal himself to you. You first need to come to a belief in God before wondering why one Christian believes one way and another differently.

We Christians all have this in common, we believe in God the Father, that Jesus Christ is his son, that Christ died for our sins, was resurrected, and has given us the Holy Spirit to guide us.

As for doctrinal issues, a guy by the name of John Westly (early church reformer) made this comment. “Love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself, and all the rest is just commentary”

I do pray you come to know Him.

 

[Widlast]

So if there is an absolute truth to the matter what method do you use for determining what that is?

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First, does scripture state anything about the issue? If not, have the Saints or Church fathers had anything to say on the issue?
3rd. What does good old "cold, hard reason" determine about the issue?

Also, as you get to know God better, you begin to see a method to His actions. He has a particular way of going about things.
You can use that knowledge to determine how God would handle other issues.

As Tolkien said of the Bagginses - they were so respectable that you would know how they would answer any question without having to go to the bother of asking them.
So it is with God, He is so reliable, that once you have a good idea of how He goes about His business, you never need to be confused about how He would want things handled or what the truth of a matter is.

 

[rockytopva]

First of all Disciple 37, should we not talk to this atheist about believing in Jesus? It makes no difference where he is going if he doesn't seek God with all his heart and soul. He himself said, ""

He doesn't need cool guys. He doesn't need counseling about what the 7 Churches mentioned in Revelation mean. Nor does he need a "Road" to get him to the Holy Spirit. What he needs is to seek the Lord. Then we can argue about the other stuff.

I will agree with that. The topic of the thread is why Christians disagree, and my point is because we are many congregations.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

E=MC2 is a mathematical concept of how to find how much energy is in an object. But it has nothing to do with spiritual things. Trying to make e=mc2 (and permutations thereof) into something spiritual will just lead this poor soul into hell. He first needs to learn how to love Jesus.

 

[Athée]

I have heard this explanation before. However, we forget. Abraham would have received this history third hand.

Due to the fact that people lived to be 700 years old and that means that Noah would have heard directly from Methuselah, Enoch's son. Methuselah was alive when Adam was alive. Abraham was alive when Noah was alive.

So, Adam tells Methuselah. Methuselah tells Noah. Noah tells Abraham. That's the same as the doctor telling my brother who tells my father, who tells me.

Or, your grandfather telling your father who told your grandson.

That is hardly a "broken telephone" scenario. This puts the different events of that time in a far better state of possible truth.

http://www.gridgit.com/postpic/2013/08/old-testament-prophets-timeline-chart_529547.jpg

Maybe I misrepresented my question. I was not asking of the telephone chain was broken rather I was asking , if the message was mistaken somewhere along the line, would the holy Spirit be able to step in and get things back on track in your view?

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[Athée]

Christians disagree because the majority of us listen to men, not God.

It is really that simple. All the other theories and observations come from this.

Also, power (a craving of mortals) plays a penultimate role in the diffusion, acceptance and care of the Word of God.

Christ followers had no denominations. Whatever He said and did, the Christians said and did. There was no recalibration of the Word of God to fit a doctrine. And yet, not even a generstion had passed before pride, ego and such peaked even into the discipleship. Infighting, rejection and outcasting began early. Thus, religion was, IS, and will become even more its own beast system, perhaps even one of the beasts.

There are no demoninations; only the Word of God.

So if two Christians who both believe they have correctly interpreted the scriptures find that they disagree, how could they resolve that tension. How could they determine who in fact is correct?

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[Monk Brendan]

Moreover free will actually doesn't seem to make sense if you also belive in Satan. He does in fact know the truth about God but still chooses freely not to worship. But maybe I am the one getting ahead of myself now

Yes, you are. Satan knows and believes the Bible, and he trembles. He has deliberately chosen to rebel against God. He knows what is going to happen, but he is going to take every last soul that he can down to hell with him.

 

[Monk Brendan]

So once someone is touched by this spiritual energy, the desire to do evil is entirely excised? Does it ever come back, how long does it take if so?

I am only a monk, and not a learned scholar. But I am trying to give you the things you need most. Don't worry about how to acquire the Holy Spirit. Just learn to love God. When you do that, most of the other things will fall into line.

 

[rockytopva]

So if two Christians who both believe they have correctly interpreted the scriptures find that they disagree, how could they resolve that tension. How could they determine who in fact is correct?

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What denomination is the Bible study? If don't mind me asking?

 

[rockytopva]

I am only a monk, and not a learned scholar. But I am trying to give you the things you need most. Don't worry about how to acquire the Holy Spirit. Just learn to love God. When you do that, most of the other things will fall into line.

The simplicity suggested is good advice, but the topic of this thread is much more complicated.