Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

[rockytopva]

I am totally confused, I'm afraid. Could you try to make your point in a different way for me
Thanks

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Take for example a kitten or a puppy....

Natural E/c2 - Mass - They have weight
Mental E/c2 - Intelligence - They have a knowledge
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

But what makes them dear is the spiritual E/c2 they possess where you can play with them and enjoy love, virtue, and affection.

 

[Disciple37]

It seems like you are saying that there is a true and correct reading of any particular scripture (although of course there are layers of meanings that can all be true), and that these things are revealed to mature, true Christians. Obviously that is the Coles notes version. My first question would be what role does the Holy Spirit play in this?

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Most of that is gained from scripture. Again, looking at commentary can be great, but the scripture is obvious in somethings and harder to understand in others. Men are prone to error out of spiritual weakness and many other reasons. The Scriptures often speak for themselves so far if you simply read the chapter. It's pretty self explanatory. The Bible reveals itself if you take clues from that chapter and take nothing out of context (meaning read the chapter before you just pull verses out of no where). I may post scripture without posting the entire chapter, but i always advise to read the chapter to help confirm the interoperation of the scripture.

The scripture doesn't mean what we want it to mean. It means what God meant. So the only true interpretation is what God intended to be voiced. So the Bible has one meaning and that's God meaning. There should not be two denominations, there should not be Catholics, Protestants, Pentecostals, Baptist. God does not want this for the Church, however, he has given us the option to choose and do right and wrong.

Can you clarify what you mean by what role does the holy spirit play? In what regard? Im sorry.

 

[rockytopva]

OK so if all Christians have the holy Spirit to teach them the actual truth of the matter, why are there so many Christians who believe they are in dwelt by that holy Spirit, who disagree with each other?

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Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

Unfortunately.... Spiritual virtues can dissipate away out of the Christians heart. If we do not keep the spiritual flame it will go out.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I'm not sure I understand. If you ask me my favorite football team and I say Seattle why would you argue with me? If we were debating who is the best team then sure we could debate that and our answer would depend on what the criteria are.
Are you saying with this analogy that there are in fact no spiritual truths and that every Christian is just supposed to come to their own conclusions? What role does the Holy Spirit play in this process or discovering/creating truth?

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Well I mean despite the bible being the same everywhere, due to translations people can pick apart what a verse means. The obvious example is the one non-christians notice alot.... how women should dress. Some denominations say the bible says women should be dressed a very specific way, not say much and basically be told what to do. Where as in other denominations they don't believe that all.

The Holy Spirit will guide you. But you run into a problem of its not like a note drops magically from the sky or a voice in your head is loud and clear. So sometimes people think the Holy Spirit is talking to them telling them the truth, but its actually themselves instead. As to christian coming up with their own conclusions.... its not easy to answer. We have our guide, the Bible. It should be simple but as I said people read things differently. Which is why bible study is always encouraged. This way you can get more in depth in the bible and figure out whats truth and whats not about what someone told you their view is.

 

[Athée]

Take for example a kitten or a puppy....

Natural E/c2 - Mass - They have weight
Mental E/c2 - Intelligence - They have a knowledge
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

But what makes them dear is the spiritual E/c2 they possess where you can play with them and enjoy love, virtue, and affection.

Again I am not sure what this has to do with the Holy Spirit and truth, I am also not sure why you belive that there is a mathematical equation that connects to spirits?

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[Athée]

Most of that is gained from scripture. Again, looking at commentary can be great, but the scripture is obvious in somethings and harder to understand in others. Men are prone to error out of spiritual weakness and many other reasons. The Scriptures often speak for themselves so far if you simply read the chapter. It's pretty self explanatory. The Bible reveals itself if you take clues from that chapter and take nothing out of context (meaning read the chapter before you just pull verses out of no where). I may post scripture without posting the entire chapter, but i always advise to read the chapter to help confirm the interoperation of the scripture.

The scripture doesn't mean what we want it to mean. It means what God meant. So the only true interpretation is what God intended to be voiced. So the Bible has one meaning and that's God meaning. There should not be two denominations, there should not be Catholics, Protestants, Pentecostals, Baptist. God does not want this for the Church, however, he has given us the option to choose and do right and wrong.

Can you clarify what you mean by what role does the holy spirit play? In what regard? Im sorry.

Happy to clarify. If there is as you say one true reading of scripture (and do you believe you have that? Just curious ), then the holy Spirit should be teaching that exact same truth to all Christians. I wonder then why there is so much disagreement. Your post suggested that our freewill to choose may be partly responsible but in this case you would have true Christians who love God enough to have the holy Spirit indwelling them, still choosing to not admit to the truth the spirit reveals to them. Moreover free will actually doesn't seem to make sense if you also belive in Satan. He does in fact know the truth about God but still chooses freely not to worship. But maybe I am the one getting ahead of myself now

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[Athée]

Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

Unfortunately.... Spiritual virtues can dissipate away out of the Christians heart. If we do not keep the spiritual flame it will go out.

Could you write the equation out using the words motivation, love etc in the actual formula. I am curious how these concepts relate to each other in a mathematical formula and this might help me understand.
Thanks

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[rockytopva]

Again I am not sure what this has to do with the Holy Spirit and truth, I am also not sure why you belive that there is a mathematical equation that connects to spirits?

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When you see fire do you see mathematical equations? But there is math in the reaction! The spiritual energy and light is like fire and like a reaction, but it is not mass or intelligence, but we can feel the effects. Can you not feel the effects of kindness, love, gentleness, goodness? That is energy and light from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Athée]

Well I mean despite the bible being the same everywhere, due to translations people can pick apart what a verse means. The obvious example is the one non-christians notice alot.... how women should dress. Some denominations say the bible says women should be dressed a very specific way, not say much and basically be told what to do. Where as in other denominations they don't believe that all.

The Holy Spirit will guide you. But you run into a problem of its not like a note drops magically from the sky or a voice in your head is loud and clear. So sometimes people think the Holy Spirit is talking to them telling them the truth, but its actually themselves instead. As to christian coming up with their own conclusions.... its not easy to answer. We have our guide, the Bible. It should be simple but as I said people read things differently. Which is why bible study is always encouraged. This way you can get more in depth in the bible and figure out whats truth and whats not about what someone told you their view is.

But if people are misunderstanding direct communication from God in the person of the Spirit, why would we then trust them to interpret the bible correctly?

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[rockytopva]

The correct spiritual energies and light take away mans desire to do evil and darkness.

 

[John Hyperspace]

It ses to me that your analogy is missing an equivalence for the Holy Spirit. How would the situation play out if the person who had made the odd inscription whispered the exact same translation into everyone's ear and they all knew that this was the truth of the matter?

Not quite; it's in there. Your idea of an "interpretation whisperer" is itself an interpretation of the text (which text is not yet at the fully revealed state): this idea is a denominational view based on a denominational interpretation of a yet to be fully revealed text. So this would be like some students claiming that they had interpreted a portion of the text to say something to which the rest of the students reply "That isn't accurate interpretation since we're all in disagreement obviously nothing like that is occurring" and continue study, discussion and debate.

 

[Athée]

When you see fire do you see mathematical equations? But there is math in the reaction! The spiritual energy and light is like fire and like a reaction, but it is not mass or intelligence, but we can feel the effects. Can you not feel the effects of kindness, love, gentleness, goodness? That is energy and light from the Holy Spirit.

I agree with you about the fire but I don't know if any similar equations for love and joy and empathy etc. Nor do I see how those connect to souls. Maybe you need to establish that part first before using them in mathematics?

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[Athée]

The correct spiritual energies and light take away mans desire to do evil and darkness.

So once someone is touched by this spiritual energy, the desire to do evil is entirely excised? Does it ever come back, how long does it take if so?

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[rockytopva]

I agree with you about the fire but I don't know if any similar equations for love and joy and empathy etc. Nor do I see how those connect to souls. Maybe you need to establish that part first before using them in mathematics?

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Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

James 2:8
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

It is the love and correct spiritual energies and light that do more for us than any doctrine.

 

[PanDeVida]

I don't know a lot of Catholics, are there any disagreements within the Catholic church?

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Athee, the Catholic Church is a Hospital / Refuge for sinners, from the Pope on down to me. To say we who are members in the Catholic Church are not sinners, is making our Lord to be a liar.

Disagreement there is, The biggest would be Judas the betrayer one of the Lord Apostles who betrayed Jesus Christ with a Kiss. St. Peter, denied Our Lord three times, after our Lords resurrection St. Peter and St. Paul argued with one another, and on down to Priest molestation of Children, etc... etc... etc...

Jesus Christ left His Church founded on Rock, in the care of sinners, and what do sinners do? Sin! Jesus Christ was aware of this, thus why Jesus Christ left a Promise: Mathew 16: below:

Matthew 16: 18And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Athee, Note ..."Hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus did not say that hell will not try, but that it shall not prevail against it. Amen What Hell shall not prevail is the Catholic Church teachings inspired by the Holy Spirit for over 2000 years and counting.

Athee, you are blessed to have a wife who is a Christian, this is not a coincidence, but a God-incidence.

 

[Athée]

Not quite; it's in there. Your idea of an "interpretation whisperer" is itself an interpretation of the text (which text is not yet at the fully revealed state): this idea is a denominational view based on a denominational interpretation of a yet to be fully revealed text. So this would be like some students claiming that they had interpreted a portion of the text to say something to which the rest of the students reply "That isn't accurate interpretation since we're all in disagreement obviously nothing like that is occurring" and continue study, discussion and debate.

I see it differently. If the class broke into groups and each group had a leader and one of the leaders declared that the text clearly means X, then this would be a denominational view, and as you pointed out the other factions/denominations could disagree. But if the author of the inscription was, to change the scenario a bit, actually standing at the front and told everyone who asked her what the inscription meant, we would have a better equivalence.

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[rockytopva]

So once someone is touched by this spiritual energy, the desire to do evil is entirely excised? Does it ever come back, how long does it take if so?

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Spiritual E/c2 is not mass or knowledge... It can leave us without us knowing or seeing its effects. So therefore the Christian should not feel he has arrived in this life...

 

[John Hyperspace]

I see it differently. If the class broke into groups and each group had a leader and one of the leaders declared that the text clearly means X, then this would be a denominational view, and as you pointed out the other factions/denominations could disagree. But if the author of the inscription was, to change the scenario a bit, actually standing at the front and told everyone who asked her what the inscription meant, we would have a better equivalence.

We wouldn't have a better equivalence because your analogy is a false equivalence. Meaning, the author isn't standing at the front to be questioned. If you're saying, the author is standing at the front to be questioned, then that's an interpretation of the partial understood text. In other words, suppose your group claims this, and I ask, "Why are you saying the author is offering to directly communicate what the text actually means?" and you say? "Because my girlfriend told me"? Your question to me then becomes my question to you: if what you're saying is a correct understanding of the text, then why don't we all agree?

 

[Athée]

Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

James 2:8
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

It is the love and correct spiritual energies and light that do more for us than any doctrine.

Sorry , it might just be me but I am really not understanding your position and how it relates to the OP.
Thanks again

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[Athée]

Athee, the Catholic Church is a Hospital / Refuge for sinners, from the Pope on down to me. To say we who are members in the Catholic Church are not sinners, is making our Lord to be a liar.

Disagreement there is, The biggest would be Judas the betrayer one of the Lord Apostles who betrayed Jesus Christ with a Kiss. St. Peter, denied Our Lord three times, after our Lords resurrection St. Peter and St. Paul argued with one another, and on down to Priest molestation of Children, etc... etc... etc...

Jesus Christ left His Church founded on Rock, in the care of sinners, and what do sinners do? Sin! Jesus Christ was aware of this, thus why Jesus Christ left a Promise: Mathew 16: below:

Matthew 16: 18And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Athee, Note ..."Hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus did not say that hell will not try, but that it shall not prevail against it. Amen What Hell shall not prevail is the Catholic Church teachings inspired by the Holy Spirit for over 2000 years and counting.

Athee, you are blessed to have a wife who is a Christian, this is not a coincidence, but a God-incidence.

It seems like you are pointing out that the closest followers of Jesus denied him. What I wonder is, do members of the Catholic church today disagree with each other about the interpretations of the holy texts?

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