Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

[Athée]

On all the things that matter. They all believe in the Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; they all believe in Jesus life, suffering, death, and life-giving Resurrection. They all believe that God loves all of us, and that God wants all of us to be with Him in heaven.

There are differences. Not many, but there are pig-headed people that will not listen or give way. That is why there are even divisions among the pre-Reformed Churches.

So why is it that the methods that you say always bring unity and common understanding within those traditions also bring division on some issues. How do we decode which elements are central and which are peripheral, what is the cut off?

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[Athée]

In Mark Twain's A Prince and the Pauper Tom Canty did! True, it is fiction, but there are always ways to learn something if you really WANT to learn.

I was about to reply with something equally disingenuous but I will refrain. Do you actually belive that everyone in the world can learn the biblical languages if they only really wanted to or was that hyperbole to make a point in a discussion thread?

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[Athée]

I don't know about anyone else, but how many schools, hospitals, orphanages and foreign aid programs have Christians started? And the clear majority were started by Catholics.

Lots and lots by Christian groups, lots by other groups too. So if both groups, believers and non, can bring forth these fruits, can those fruits be useful in distinguishing one group from the other?

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[victorinus]

I suspect that where we would disagree is about what constitutes proof and disproof.

I don't really think in terms of proof
-
more like what is a reasonable explanation

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Sure, so you are saying that God is morally implicated in the actions of satan in that instance?

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I don't understand your question with certainty, could you expound on what it is you want me to address?
Yes, God is in charge, yes, bad things do happen to all people, including Christians...sometimes due to our sin, sometimes to test and try us in an effort to perfect our faith and lead us to maturity. Difference is we as Christians are looking for an eternal home which is not of this world and we are ourselves preparing for that home and God too is preparing us.
What do hard times do to people? We gather up our strength and courage and do as we must, however, if we are a Christian we start asking why? What caused this? Is it my sin? And foremost we pray more fervently for strength, courage, increased faith, wisdom, understanding, love, etc to move through this turbulent time and sometimes we see no light at the end of the tunnel and so we sometimes pray, "Thy will be done!"
But please, restate your question so I'm sure I understand it.

 

[MrsBrit]

The Holy Spirit leads us all to different churches. Some Messianic, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Methodist/Pentecostal, Charismatic. I would pray and let the Holy Spirit guide me as to what church is right for me. I would make following the Holy Spirit first place, and then dwell in whatever church he leads me.

The story of Robert Sheffy, Saint of the Wilderness, who dwelt in the Methodist church even though he was at odds with them on occasion...

Well said!

 

[A Fellow Seeker]

Yours seems to be the minority opinion on the thread but I belive 2PhiloVoid agrees to some extent with your position. Why do you think yours is the minority view on this, why don't more believers see it your way?

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Some churches believe this as a part of their historical doctrine written by people with that opinion. But I am more of an independent - while I go to a church of one denomination I make my own choices by studying what the Bible says on the matter, then historical practices on the matter and were they came from, and also Jewish roots of some practices. I think it is based on the belief that once saved everyone will get these gifts because these gifts were given to the original apostles. But I can't find anyplace is says well will a get the gift of understanding. The ability to know right from wrong seems strongly implied - but were we still have to chose if we are going to listen to that feeling. The bible says the spirit gives different gifts to different people - the gifts God wants us to have, thinks we need, or areas we may pray for help in.

I think the more reliable understanding of the Bible comes from actually studying the Bible and not taking for granted anything handed down is true simply because someone says it is. I have always found debating issues in small bible groups to be helpful. The journey is as important in studying the bible as the destination (finding the answer). Then you not only know the answer - you have a better understanding of the why. Or, you may decide the answer you were told isn't Biblically based but a product of traditional beliefs coming from somewhere else. Then you have to make the choice on what you are going to do.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Well said!

Except that the Epistles all indicate that the goal is complete unity in maturity as a body. Also false doctrine is a serious issue dealt with in the these letters...not to be taken lightly then and certainly not authored by the Holy Spirit. Divisions and divisive people were to be dealt with.
One might guess that all these divisions are caused by immaturity and the sinful nature which leans toward arrogance.

 

[Monk Brendan]

So why is it that the methods that you say always bring unity and common understanding within those traditions also bring division on some issues. How do we decode which elements are central and which are peripheral, what is the cut off?

Athee, it is because people are fallible, sinful creatures, Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church split over one word, "Filioque." It means, "and the Son," and because it was a novelty, introduced to the Nicene Creed, everybody got all bent out of shape. In the end Cardinal Humbert laid a Bull of Excommunication on the high altar of Hagia Sophia while Patriarch Michael was celebrating Divine Liturgy. This happened in 1054.

The thing is, if it not been those two stubborn men, the split would never have happened.

Later, other things came into play, like the primacy of the Pope, which Roman Catholics perceived to mean one thing and the Orthodox something else. By the 1500's it was carved in stone.

But, we do believe in the same things, and I do believe that one of the most heinous wounds on the Body of Christ is this Schism. I hate it, and it has been my prayer for the past 20+ years for that wound to heal.

But look at all the things we DO have in common. That is where your questions will find answers.

Again, you don't need to worry about the Holy Spirit. Seek to know God, and the rest will fall into place.

 

[Chriliman]

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

1 Corinthians 11:19
"No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval."

By default we all come into this world ignorant and without understanding, which is why differences arise between people's understanding, but these difference are critical in determining who is speaking truth.

Put another way: Imagine you must find one specific marble among hundreds of other marbles...well it would be much better if the other marbles were different in some way from the one you need to find, that way you can distinguish it from the rest.

It's similar with the truth of God. We're bombarded with millions of 'truths' and are expected to distinguish what's actually true from what's false, thankfully when the truth and love of God hits you and you accept and understand it, it's unmistakeable because it changes you from within. We're called to submit to His truth and love and let it flow through us to other's in the hope that they'll recognize and accept it as well.

He always frees people from the darkness that they're in and this is one way we can know we are in Christ.

 

[OzSpen]

Well my apologies for the straw man, that was not my intent.
You seem to be saying that the majority of Christians will make these errors in interpreting scripture, despite the efforts of the holy Spirit. To solve this you props ed a small group of gifted teachers. My question is how can you tell which teachers are gifted and which are fooling themselves.
Thanks for the bit on infallibility, that helps me know where you are coming from.
Finally about languages, I was not twisting what you said, I was asking a question that posed a counter example to your position, so that you could consider it and perhaps nuance or outright abandon your claim that all people have access to the biblical languages if they want to. I think my question still stands.

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Which teachers have the gift of teaching? The are those who agree with what the Scriptures teaching, using regular principles of interpretation. I have listed this in my post to you near the end of the thread, Why do Christians disagree? Pt 1. All Christians have access to these principles at Acts 17:11 demonstrates.

The best people for identifying forged $100 bills are those who have worked with the genuine bills. Same here! The best people who can pick up those who are fooling themselves or others are those who have worked with the genuine Scriptures long enough to know the genuine from the fake.

All literate adults should be able to have access to learn the biblical languages, but many won't have that desire. However, there are handicaps with some languages in the world that don't have a Bible in their own languages. Many people won't have the desire to learn biblical languages.

That's why there is a need for the gift of teaching.

Oz

 

[Athée]

I don't really think in terms of proof
-
more like what is a reasonable explanation

Fair enough, proof is often a word reserved for math. That said I am wary about this idea of a reasonable explanation. It seems to me that there could be many reasonable explanation, sufficient rather than necessary. Does that trouble you as well?

 

[Athée]

I don't understand your question with certainty, could you expound on what it is you want me to address?
Yes, God is in charge, yes, bad things do happen to all people, including Christians...sometimes due to our sin, sometimes to test and try us in an effort to perfect our faith and lead us to maturity. Difference is we as Christians are looking for an eternal home which is not of this world and we are ourselves preparing for that home and God too is preparing us.
What do hard times do to people? We gather up our strength and courage and do as we must, however, if we are a Christian we start asking why? What caused this? Is it my sin? And foremost we pray more fervently for strength, courage, increased faith, wisdom, understanding, love, etc to move through this turbulent time and sometimes we see no light at the end of the tunnel and so we sometimes pray, "Thy will be done!"
But please, restate your question so I'm sure I understand it.

I guess what I am wondering of you think God has a moral responsibility for the things he allows to happen?

 

[Athée]

Athee, it is because people are fallible, sinful creatures, Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church split over one word, "Filioque." It means, "and the Son," and because it was a novelty, introduced to the Nicene Creed, everybody got all bent out of shape. In the end Cardinal Humbert laid a Bull of Excommunication on the high altar of Hagia Sophia while Patriarch Michael was celebrating Divine Liturgy. This happened in 1054.

The thing is, if it not been those two stubborn men, the split would never have happened.

Later, other things came into play, like the primacy of the Pope, which Roman Catholics perceived to mean one thing and the Orthodox something else. By the 1500's it was carved in stone.

But, we do believe in the same things, and I do believe that one of the most heinous wounds on the Body of Christ is this Schism. I hate it, and it has been my prayer for the past 20+ years for that wound to heal.

But look at all the things we DO have in common. That is where your questions will find answers.

Again, you don't need to worry about the Holy Spirit. Seek to know God, and the rest will fall into place.

Why do you think God allowed that spilt to occur?

 

[Athée]

1 Corinthians 11:19
"No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval."

By default we all come into this world ignorant and without understanding, which is why differences arise between people's understanding, but these difference are critical in determining who is speaking truth.

Put another way: Imagine you must find one specific marble among hundreds of other marbles...well it would be much better if the other marbles were different in some way from the one you need to find, that way you can distinguish it from the rest.

It's similar with the truth of God. We're bombarded with millions of 'truths' and are expected to distinguish what's actually true from what's false, thankfully when the truth and love of God hits you and you accept and understand it, it's unmistakeable because it changes you from within. We're called to submit to His truth and love and let it flow through us to other's in the hope that they'll recognize and accept it as well.

He always frees people from the darkness that they're in and this is one way we can know we are in Christ.

The way I see that analogy the marbles are all different and God tells you to find the right one but he doesn't give you a clear description of what it looks like. Does that make sense?

 

[Athée]

Which teachers have the gift of teaching? The are those who agree with what the Scriptures teaching, using regular principles of interpretation. I have listed this in my post to you near the end of the thread, Why do Christians disagree? Pt 1. All Christians have access to these principles at Acts 17:11 demonstrates.

The best people for identifying forged $100 bills are those who have worked with the genuine bills. Same here! The best people who can pick up those who are fooling themselves or others are those who have worked with the genuine Scriptures long enough to know the genuine from the fake.

All literate adults should be able to have access to learn the biblical languages, but many won't have that desire. However, there are handicaps with some languages in the world that don't have a Bible in their own languages. Many people won't have the desire to learn biblical languages.

That's why there is a need for the gift of teaching.

Oz

So I'm still confused about how we identify these gifted teachers. You said that they would be those that teach things that agree with the bible. This seems to presuppose that the listener already knows the truth of what the Bible teaches , but that was exactly what was at issue, so I am not sure how this method would help?

 

[victorinus]

Fair enough, proof is often a word reserved for math. That said I am wary about this idea of a reasonable explanation. It seems to me that there could be many reasonable explanation, sufficient rather than necessary. Does that trouble you as well?

no
-
I am willing to listen to any reasonable explanation

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I guess what I am wondering of you think God has a moral responsibility for the things he allows to happen?

God holds back what rightfully should happen to us due to our sin. We are the morally culpable ones, not God. Yes, He certainly has the power to hold it all back, but that is neither His will nor His plan. The curse of our sin is not removed until we reach heaven...there we are told all curse is removed.
So, God is not morally responsible for the things He allows to happen. All such bad and evil is a consequence of sin...our sin. We are sinners, doomed to hell, but Jesus rescued us from our sin and its consequences...again, God's plan...and we either take hold of that salvation through faith in Christ and work out our salvation by way of holy living with repentance when we stumble into sin which He mercifully and faithfully forgives by His grace.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The way I see that analogy the marbles are all different and God tells you to find the right one but he doesn't give you a clear description of what it looks like. Does that make sense?

Yes, He gives a clear description by way of His Word.

 

[Athée]

no
-
I am willing to listen to any reasonable explanation

Do you think that the kinds of explanations that strike you as reasonable might be influenced by your worldview?