Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

[Athée]

Athee,

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I ought to have been in what I wrote. Or it seems that you have misapprehensions of what I did write. However, this is a straw man concerning my argument.

Welcome to the world of being a fallen human being who teaches his children to obey. I had to do the same thing with my 3 children. There is no God who is the author of confusion. ISinful human beings create confusion.




Clear interpretation of Scripture is that which pursues legitimate methods of hermeneutics and the Holy Spirit will guide into truth. However, we are still sinful human beings engaged in biblical interpretation and the voice of the Holy Spirit can be confused with human ideas.

I provided you with principles of hermeneutics. You seem to be ignoring those. As for the Bible not being clear, I said that that is why God has gifted certain believers with the gift of teaching. Why did you overlook what I wrote about the teaching gift?



Exactly what 2 Tim 3:16-17 (ESV) states. All Scripture is theopneustos, i.e. breathed out by God. It is without error. Here we are speaking of Scripture in the original MSS and not a particular Bible translation.

I recommend Norman Geisler (ed), Inerrancy (1980, Zondervan Publishing House).
See also:

• IS BELIEF IN BIBLICAL CONTRADICTIONS CONSISTENT WITH INERRANCY? (Norman Geisler)
• Does the Bible have errors? (Norman Geisler, YouTube)

You know the context in which I spoke about those who are literate (I was inferring adults). You are throwing up a red herring with suggesting 'an impoverished street child in a slum' can learn Greek. That was not what I stated. You have ignored the context of what I wrote.

You seem to be trying to be difficult in twisting what I said to what I did not say.

Oz

Well my apologies for the straw man, that was not my intent.
You seem to be saying that the majority of Christians will make these errors in interpreting scripture, despite the efforts of the holy Spirit. To solve this you props ed a small group of gifted teachers. My question is how can you tell which teachers are gifted and which are fooling themselves.
Thanks for the bit on infallibility, that helps me know where you are coming from.
Finally about languages, I was not twisting what you said, I was asking a question that posed a counter example to your position, so that you could consider it and perhaps nuance or outright abandon your claim that all people have access to the biblical languages if they want to. I think my question still stands.

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[throughfiierytrial]

Yes very well written, and thank you for joining in
It seems to me that you belive that on some level god actually wants their to be a level of confusion and dissent, for the purposes of teaching believers to work through these and to hold fast to him despite the pressures of the world.
Am I reading you correctly?

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God allows for our failures, yes, but He is not the author of them...that would be our own sinful nature or the evil one (Satan) or both. We see how this works in the first chapter of Job, then too there is this passage:
James 1:13:
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

and God makes all things work to our benefit...
Romans 8:28:
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

As far as God wanting there to be a level of confusion and dissent...I do not know if we can say that, He desires unity as you saw in the previous passages I cited. However, we do know there was dissent even among the apostles...Paul and Barnabas came into sharp dispute over a matter and parted ways (Acts), for example. This worked out for the good in the end because the Gospel was spread in more directions due to them going their separate ways.

Also, in the Corinthian churches we have this...
I Corinthians 11:18-19:
In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.

From the above I venture a response that maybe God does at times want some level of dissent to sort out the spiritual issues behind the matter that cannot be agreed upon.

 

[Athée]

God allows for our failures, yes, but He is not the author of them...that would be our own sinful nature or the evil one (Satan) or both. We see how this works in the first chapter of Job, then too there is this passage:
James 1:13:
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

and God makes all things work to our benefit...
Romans 8:28:
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

As far as God wanting there to be a level of confusion and dissent...I do not know if we can say that, He desires unity as you saw in the previous passages I cited. However, we do know there was dissent even among the apostles...Paul and Barnabas came into sharp dispute over a matter and parted ways (Acts), for example. This worked out for the good in the end because the Gospel was spread in more directions due to them going their separate ways.

Also, in the Corinthian churches we have this...
I Corinthians 11:18-19:
In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.

From the above I venture a response that maybe God does at times want some level of dissent to sort out the spiritual issues behind the matter that cannot be agreed upon.

This is a bit off topic but I often wonder about this concept of God allowing but not causing things. If we had a coach say to his hockey team "OK I want you to stop trying to score and play defense to hold this lead" and the team responds by playing a good defensive game, is the coach responsible for the way the team played the end of the game or not?

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[throughfiierytrial]

This is a bit off topic but I often wonder about this concept of God allowing but not causing things. If we had a coach say to his hockey team "OK I want you to stop trying to score and play defense to hold this lead" and the team responds by playing a good defensive game, is the coach responsible for the way the team played the end of the game or not?

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I understand your position, read Job 1 if you would please and get back to me on your views if they change any.

 

[Athée]

I understand your position, read Job 1 if you would please and get back to me on your views if they change any.

It really doesn't change my view. I see that Jobs doesn't accuse God of wrongdoing but this does not make him correct.
If I were a mob boss and one of my henchmen came to me and asked if they could murder your family and I said to go ahead as long as they didn't kill you, would I be morally implicated in the deathbed your loved ones?


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[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

That does sound confusing and I appreciate your honest efforts to navigate the topic.
Knowing the power of the human mind what makes you so sure that your God belief is true?

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My dear friend. Besides from all that I have said to you, I think I believe because the teaching of Christ from the canonical Gospels does work for me. I don't know why and how. It just works in my case. I find it amazing. Seemingly contradictory, hard to understand, but still resoundly powerful and deep. It goes inside me so profoundly and totally converts the way I feel, see things and how I act. It has a life of its own in me, a power beyond my control - Jesus Christ. If accepted wholehertedly and applied honestly at least partially, the teaching produces unbelievable results. Jesus gives me a purpose for living, He explains that there is a world beyond which can be seen and otherwise experienced, and a higher intelligence as a foundational principle under all matter and all laws. I think some things were added to the 4 Gospels. That's the reason it can be completely crippled if confused, misunderstood or misused. Jesus' truth is quite simple. Two ways of living, a spiritual way with Him (i.e. according to His teaching) in total inclusive love and a carnal way without Him in selfishness and division. The first one leads to victory, the second - to utter defeat. I really don't understand all of the aspects of Jesus's teaching. Like I said, the Bible really doesn't strive to help in that. But you can learn it. The key is to read the records of Jesus's deeds and words. But you need to see beyond events at face value. There's a multi-faceted truth in His every interaction with the humanity, filled with the most valuable lessons. It's a doorway to understand the world the way it is. To understand God. And it's quite simple in its essence.

It must be clearly understood, that the primitive mind of the ancient times and even today, is very limited. Or rational minds are mainly tools for physical survival, and paradoxical as it may sound; they strongly come in the way of truth... Our minds are in bondage to the body.

You have to read the Gospels with the utmost openness of your mind. Just absorbe. Listen to Him, not to theologies or churches or people such as at this forum. Listen to Him. It's timeless, clearest and deepest truth. Will come a time (I hope), it will make sense to you.

Have you read the Gospels? Or have you ever tried to believe yourself?

You know, His truth speaks to our "souls" directly. They respond. One way or another.

It's hard hard hard to explain. My language just serves such bleak service to the beauty, the truth and the power of Jesus Christ's teaching.

Try and meet Him by yourself, without such imperfect interpreters as myself or anyone else. Let the echoes of His words speak directly to you. Even in such form, the truth comes out as a strong ray of sunlight shining through a hole in a curtain....

 

[A Fellow Seeker]

Well - we can't get some people to believe in Climate Change. We can't get all Republicans to agree with each other - and Democrats agree with each other even less.
Jews didn't agree with each other at the time of Jesus - that is why we had the Pharisees, Sadducees, Zealots, & Essenes - they had very big fundamental differences.

Since then we have had 2000 years of historical baggage added to that. Historical misconceptions and views handed down for generations. Personal bibles are actually a new thing. The first printed bibles wasn't until 1456. The first English bible until 1526. That is a lot of generations were people only learned about God from a priest in a church who may have done much of his sermon in Latin. Many didn't even read Latin well. Popes declared something true which wasn't - like declaring Mary Magdalene a prostitute when there is nothing in the Bible stating she was. Meaning also change over time - sometimes they change a great deal. Example - Abraham and Sarah being brother and sister. Archeological evidence (Nuzi tablets) now show it there was a practice of adopting a woman as a sister before marrying her. This was extra protection for her. You can't divorce your sister, and if you took a second wife back then - she would inherit as a sister and a wife. A wife/sister had more protection and a higher social position.

Another reason for all the differences is that everyone has their own perspective based on their own past - what they have heard, and been taught. Most people rather be told what to believe, and most people do not like it when someone questions something held as "written" in stone. There may not be any Bible passage written saying any such thing - but we have heard it enough times that if you question it some people will just have a melt down. Unfortunately more people learn about the Bible by hearing others talk or movies. They don't actually sit down and read it. When they do read it - they are so entrenched in what they already believe they don't realize some of their basic beliefs are not in the bible. Personally I have always liked to question anything - I have learned so much looking for the answers.

Therefore - with so many people having their own personal baggage of beliefs and perspective, plus generations of misinformation passed down or lost - it would be more than a miracle if we did all agree. But that doesn't make the Bible untrue - it only shows our own imperfections.

BTW - all atheists don't agree either. If people can't agree on what not believing in God means, do you really expect Christians to agree on religious beliefs after 2000 years have passed?

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

And then, faith is simply acceptance. Nothing more. Yes, blind acceptance and trust. Child-like! But to accept anything, you must first understand it. And you understand it by hearing Jesus. His truth is not reformation of the human being or building a better society. Though you might witness some of both as a side-effect. No. His truth is just simply this... Truth. No further description needed. Today you are confused - we all are. Meet Jesus, you know things the way they are - you know what really matters to us all. It's enlightenment. You become a complete life. A fulfilled human being. There's no going back. Before meeting Jesus, you are but a blind mice forever lost in a lab maze....

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

And by the way, dear friend. I love you very very very much in Jesus Christ.

 

[A Fellow Seeker]

To answer you second question - I don't think there is anything in the Bibles saying the Holy Ghost/Spirit teaching you the true meaning of any bible verse. Its not intended to be a Google Bible Spirit. We have to dig and study for our answers. If anyone knows of any Bible verse saying the Holy Spirit will answer questions of meaning - please post them.
I do see passages that say it is here to comfort you when needed, guide you by helping you distinguish right from wrong, and help us remember what we have learned about God. I don't know if God wants to make understanding the Bible "easy". You have to seek answers. We learn more seeking than we would ever learn if the answers were just given to us. In the seeking we also become closer to God. Maybe when you have a question about something and need to start looking for the answer that is the Holy Spirit nugging you to open the bible and ask questions.

If the Holy Spirit were actually to start answering questions by enlightening you about God - maybe that would remove some of your freewill. Also - if it worked like that - would we even need the Bible? I believe in God - but that does not mean I have the Holy Spirit giving me all the answers. No one - no matter how much they believe in God - has all the answers.

So I think you are misunderstanding the role the holy spirit works in life of a Christian.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

It really doesn't change my view. I see that Jobs doesn't accuse God of wrongdoing but this does not make him correct.
If I were a mob boss and one of my henchmen came to me and asked if they could murder your family and I said to go ahead as long as they didn't kill you, would I be morally implicated in the deathbed your loved ones?

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I'm focusing on the question of whether or not God is the author of temptation. We see He is not, not directly, Satan is that agent, but Satan must get his authority from God. We deserve to be not only tested and tried in the effort to shape us up, but our eternal punishment as well. We are all under the curses, esp. the curse of sin and this testing and trying does perfect us.

 

[victorinus]

You said, I thought, that one of the reasons we can be very confident that a belief is true is if the idea has stood the test of time, as in if it has been around for a long time. This would mean that all old ideas are more likely to be true than new ones. If I am misreading you just clarify what you did mean so that we can move the discussion forward.
Thanks

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most of the old ideas have been disproved
-
I am talking about the ones that haven't been disproved

 

[Monk Brendan]

There are a few things I would push back on from that post but none that bear on the thread topic.

Push back, if you will, on a private message.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Do those groups that you mentioned all agree with each other?

On all the things that matter. They all believe in the Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; they all believe in Jesus life, suffering, death, and life-giving Resurrection. They all believe that God loves all of us, and that God wants all of us to be with Him in heaven.

There are differences. Not many, but there are pig-headed people that will not listen or give way. That is why there are even divisions among the pre-Reformed Churches.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Are you suggesting that an empoverished street child in a slum has the opportunity and resources to learn ancient Greek if only they desire to do so?

In Mark Twain's A Prince and the Pauper Tom Canty did! True, it is fiction, but there are always ways to learn something if you really WANT to learn.

 

[Monk Brendan]

So are you saying that only a true Christian can start schools and hospitals, orphanages and foreign aid programs?

I don't know about anyone else, but how many schools, hospitals, orphanages and foreign aid programs have Christians started? And the clear majority were started by Catholics.

 

[Athée]

Well - we can't get some people to believe in Climate Change. We can't get all Republicans to agree with each other - and Democrats agree with each other even less.
Jews didn't agree with each other at the time of Jesus - that is why we had the Pharisees, Sadducees, Zealots, & Essenes - they had very big fundamental differences.

Since then we have had 2000 years of historical baggage added to that. Historical misconceptions and views handed down for generations. Personal bibles are actually a new thing. The first printed bibles wasn't until 1456. The first English bible until 1526. That is a lot of generations were people only learned about God from a priest in a church who may have done much of his sermon in Latin. Many didn't even read Latin well. Popes declared something true which wasn't - like declaring Mary Magdalene a prostitute when there is nothing in the Bible stating she was. Meaning also change over time - sometimes they change a great deal. Example - Abraham and Sarah being brother and sister. Archeological evidence (Nuzi tablets) now show it there was a practice of adopting a woman as a sister before marrying her. This was extra protection for her. You can't divorce your sister, and if you took a second wife back then - she would inherit as a sister and a wife. A wife/sister had more protection and a higher social position.

Another reason for all the differences is that everyone has their own perspective based on their own past - what they have heard, and been taught. Most people rather be told what to believe, and most people do not like it when someone questions something held as "written" in stone. There may not be any Bible passage written saying any such thing - but we have heard it enough times that if you question it some people will just have a melt down. Unfortunately more people learn about the Bible by hearing others talk or movies. They don't actually sit down and read it. When they do read it - they are so entrenched in what they already believe they don't realize some of their basic beliefs are not in the bible. Personally I have always liked to question anything - I have learned so much looking for the answers.

Therefore - with so many people having their own personal baggage of beliefs and perspective, plus generations of misinformation passed down or lost - it would be more than a miracle if we did all agree. But that doesn't make the Bible untrue - it only shows our own imperfections.

BTW - all atheists don't agree either. If people can't agree on what not believing in God means, do you really expect Christians to agree on religious beliefs after 2000 years have passed?

Great response
It seems to me that the difference is that Christians belive there is a caring and active god that wants us to know him. How should that be different from a bunch of atheists who disagree and why?

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[Athée]

To answer you second question - I don't think there is anything in the Bibles saying the Holy Ghost/Spirit teaching you the true meaning of any bible verse. Its not intended to be a Google Bible Spirit. We have to dig and study for our answers. If anyone knows of any Bible verse saying the Holy Spirit will answer questions of meaning - please post them.
I do see passages that say it is here to comfort you when needed, guide you by helping you distinguish right from wrong, and help us remember what we have learned about God. I don't know if God wants to make understanding the Bible "easy". You have to seek answers. We learn more seeking than we would ever learn if the answers were just given to us. In the seeking we also become closer to God. Maybe when you have a question about something and need to start looking for the answer that is the Holy Spirit nugging you to open the bible and ask questions.

If the Holy Spirit were actually to start answering questions by enlightening you about God - maybe that would remove some of your freewill. Also - if it worked like that - would we even need the Bible? I believe in God - but that does not mean I have the Holy Spirit giving me all the answers. No one - no matter how much they believe in God - has all the answers.

So I think you are misunderstanding the role the holy spirit works in life of a Christian.

Yours seems to be the minority opinion on the thread but I belive 2PhiloVoid agrees to some extent with your position. Why do you think yours is the minority view on this, why don't more believers see it your way?

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[Athée]

I'm focusing on the question of whether or not God is the author of temptation. We see He is not, not directly, Satan is that agent, but Satan must get his authority from God. We deserve to be not only tested and tried in the effort to shape us up, but our eternal punishment as well. We are all under the curses, esp. the curse of sin and this testing and trying does perfect us.

Sure, so you are saying that God is morally implicated in the actions of satan in that instance?

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[Athée]

most of the old ideas have been disproved
-
I am talking about the ones that haven't been disproved

Good distinction, my writing was a bit unclear. So you are saying that old ideas that haven't been disproven are therefore more likely to be true. I agree more or less, the theory of evolution is a great example of an idea that has been around for a long time with no evidence to dismantle it (although details have been modified on light of new information), this makes it a more robust model of reality than a just so story created ad hoc.
I suspect that where we would disagree is about what constitutes proof and disproof.
In any event good post!

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