Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

[Athée]

Take a look at the Christian sects that have been around the longest. Catholic (all 23 flavors), Orthodox, Maronite, all of the Oriental Orthodox, some of whom have been around so long that they can trace their beliefs back to a single apostle. These are the people that you can trust to do it right, because most of them have been teaching the faithful how to listen to God, and how to best interpret His Word for almost 2000 years

I'm going to go out on a limb, and recommend a Bible for you to read. It is the Orthodox Study Bible. You can find it online and in some stores. The NT is strictly the New King James version, and the OT has been scrupulously translated from the Septuagint that I told you about earlier. Now, the way that the various books are presented in the OSB is different from any other Bible you may have looked at, it is still the full Bible. Remember, God loves you.

Do those groups that you mentioned all agree with each other?

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[Athée]

you can't
-so-
you keep on testing
-
your working assumption can be modified at anytime based on the results of your latest test

But if we can't trust the results of our testing, how does it matter how many times you test something?

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[Athée]

I personally test by praying for God to have me know what He wants us to know.

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

In me, He can have me knowing what He wants us to know. But this means, included, how I do need more correction . . . so certain things get shown to be wrong, but also so I see things the right way. I need to not get self-righteous about what I know, in case I really have God giving me what is true.

With Him producing what He has me knowing, also He is producing the caring and kind character and humility needed . . . if it is really God.

We see how the disciples were right there with Jesus, but they could fight among themselves about who was the greatest. So, they knew who Jesus is, but how they saw this was a problem!

So, I need to be prayerful so I will know what is right and know it in the right way.

Like I offer > God proves Himself to us. He knows if it is He or not. Maybe it is like how you yourself might not be able to prove that your parents really are your mom and dad; but they know, and they are able to communicate with you and prove themselves.

Plus . . . your wife can prove herself to you, and you don't need to go only by her say-so or you wishing it so.

So you belive that God can teach you something that you can know for certain to be true. If that is the case and God if God wants us to know true things about him and the world he made, why does he continue to allow such division and confusion and even enmity among his children?

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[Athée]

The problem with Holy Spirit revelations is that alternate people claim to receive alternate, contradictory interpretations.

I agree with that. Does this mean that in the absence of information from beyond the grave the Christian is simply stuck, unable to know for certain the things of God?

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[Athée]

I believe there are the main basic things which need to be the same for everyone.

Even so, God is creative with each of us. So, there are things which can be different.

For only one example > if God has one person for marriage, this person's discovering about love might have more to do with relating with humans. While someone for celibacy might start off with more learning of how to relate personally with God. But what each is learning will not directly contradict the other. And as they grow in love, they both will have more about both relating with God and sharing with people; plus, the celibate can help the married person get more into sharing with God and submitting to Him, while the married one might help the celibate to develop more in relating with people.

So, there are divisive differences which are not of God, but there are differences of puzzle pieces which can fit together perfectly, Athée. But divisive and self-favoring people can take puzzle-pieces to be contradictory to each other. Their divisive nature can have them seeing division where it does not have to be. Our character has a lot to do with how we see things.

So . . . in the case of testing > yes, we already have talked about 1 Thessalonians 5:21, here in our discussion >

"Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

We test not only for what is the truth, but how to see the thing we are testing; and we test for the good which we can use it to produce, with God. So, we are not testing only ideas, but situations and relationships. Then make God's all-loving use of it. So, we are not only testing for what is right or what is wrong, but for the good which anything can be used for.

One special example is how Joseph used his horrible situation for God's all-loving result > Genesis 37-50. He did this with God, of course.

I like the analogy and I wonder how we can determine what are the core issues. What distinguishes these from peripheral issues?

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[Athée]

I really don't know. Hard to distinguish. No clear cut difference. All a matter of personal perspective or perception, I think. Some people interpret everything as coming from God - any own thought you have can be "whispered" to you by God etc.

I don't know. For now I just pray and believe I will come to an understanding myself, through my own thought process. Not that He will speak to me "in a thunder" in a distinctive way. I don't expect and don't look for such experience. Not that I reject such possibility altogether. Open to all possibilities now. Open mind. It was pretty closed for too ling. Bad! There was also this huge fear or doing/thinking the wrong thing, or appearing before my insecure and ever judging Christian circle a heretic/sinner/devil's accomplice for any indépendant, free thinking... Now the fear is mostly gone, but not yet completely. Hard to change your personality overnight... Atheist from birth to late teens, then Christian all of the adult life and the greater half of life... Not easy. Not easy.

I also believe in possibility of an indirect "hand of God" working and directing me. Like, receiving certain "signs". A striking coincidence, a strong obsticle when trying to do smth, an unusial event, etc.... Well, all of that is so relative and so subject to interpretation... Super subjective..... So, I don't want to rush to interpret anything definitively as "God"... Only if I'm very sure in it. Kind of when you have this internal assurance it's supernatural..... But I don't know. It could be 100% psychology in some cases...

I know that human imagination is so powerful, but I do believe in the reality of God wholeheartedly.

Sounds like utmost confusion? I think it is. But what could I do... I wish things were simpler or clearer. But they are what they are. Like a fog...

That does sound confusing and I appreciate your honest efforts to navigate the topic.
Knowing the power of the human mind what makes you so sure that your God belief is true?

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[Athée]

I avoid definition arguments

I am not trying to argue with you about what the word faith means, I am asking you how you are using it so that I can understand your perspective more clearly

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[Athée]

you can but I don't
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each test is valid but not sufficient

If a test can lead to contradictory results is it a reliable pathway to truth?

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[Athée]

I don't agree with your meaning

I'm confused. You seemed to be saying that the length of time an idea has survived is an indication that it is true. You example of course was Christian theism.
Did I misunderstand you?

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[Athée]

Shalom, Peace be with you all.

About testing long-held beliefs, God has given us all a way to do so. The reason for all the divisions in Christianity is our all being blind spiritually, no prophet as there were on Bible times. Back then, God spoke through them, gathering and guiding his people Israel.

But we have the Light, the Word, the teaching of Jesus Christ to help us distinguish between what is right and what is wrong in our beliefs and in the doctrines of our individual churches. Because Jesus declared:

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:48 KJV

I grew up in one of the hundreds of divisions in Christianity, but when I saw the light of Jesus' Words I realized how far my church and all the Christian churches are from the truth. By our believing in human interpretations instead of what Jesus clearly spoke, we have all been led astray, away from the Light.

I am just saying, our long-held beliefs should be tested by the Words of Jesus Christ. But it is so much easier said than done.

So you believe that the truth of all things is plainly evident in the bible?

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[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

That does sound confusing and I appreciate your honest efforts to navigate the topic.
Knowing the power of the human mind what makes you so sure that your God belief is true?

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Really hard to say. Long journey. All sorts of things. I guess, just accepting what others say. Religion. Faith. No hard proof. No evidence. Irrational. Just a choice to accept a paradigm. Perhaps, lots of fear, too... Smth childish. There's a monster in the closet. Awe and fear. Some years back I had strong doubts to the point of losing faith. But then I read and watched all those NDE accounts and that really, really re-instilled the faith with increased force... I know it's all subjective. I can believe similarily in ancestor spirits, like many of my fellow countrymen. Same explanation works. I prayed to God, found new job. (Qualifications and job-search efforts not really a factor, huh?) Or I offered flatbread to powerful deceased ancestors and got the job. (Again, nothing else was a factor, seriously?)

 

[victorinus]

But if we can't trust the results of our testing, how does it matter how many times you test something?

the results of testing is hardly ever absolute but it almost always increases the body of knowledge

 

[victorinus]

I am not trying to argue with you about what the word faith means, I am asking you how you are using it so that I can understand your perspective more clearly

a strong belief in God and in the doctrines of the catholic church

 

[victorinus]

If a test can lead to contradictory results is it a reliable pathway to truth?

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yes

 

[victorinus]

I'm confused. You seemed to be saying that the length of time an idea has survived is an indication that it is true. You example of course was Christian theism.
Did I misunderstand you?

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you take something I say and then tell me what it means and I don't agree with your meaning

 

[OzSpen]

So it sounds like you are saying that where I as a father would clearly teach the important things to my children, that this is a pattern I choose because I am a fallen human. That God in his wisdom prefers to be the author of confusion because it serves his purposes. Is that right?

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Athee,

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I ought to have been in what I wrote. Or it seems that you have misapprehensions of what I did write. However, this is a straw man concerning my argument.

Welcome to the world of being a fallen human being who teaches his children to obey. I had to do the same thing with my 3 children. There is no God who is the author of confusion. ISinful human beings create confusion.

You also said that if the interpretation someone is offering is inconsistent with the bible then they are clearly not being inspired by the Holy Spirit. Now I imagine that this is easily done on clear teaching in scripture. But what about all the elements that are not so clear, that are open to interpretation. How would you be able to judge in that case? Or maybe you belive that the Bible is absolutely clear on everything to the humble and honest believer?

Clear interpretation of Scripture is that which pursues legitimate methods of hermeneutics and the Holy Spirit will guide into truth. However, we are still sinful human beings engaged in biblical interpretation and the voice of the Holy Spirit can be confused with human ideas.

I provided you with principles of hermeneutics. You seem to be ignoring those. As for the Bible not being clear, I said that that is why God has gifted certain believers with the gift of teaching. Why did you overlook what I wrote about the teaching gift?

What do you mean when you say the bible is infallible.

Exactly what 2 Tim 3:16-17 (ESV) states. All Scripture is theopneustos, i.e. breathed out by God. It is without error. Here we are speaking of Scripture in the original MSS and not a particular Bible translation.

I recommend Norman Geisler (ed), Inerrancy (1980, Zondervan Publishing House).
See also:

• IS BELIEF IN BIBLICAL CONTRADICTIONS CONSISTENT WITH INERRANCY? (Norman Geisler)
• Does the Bible have errors? (Norman Geisler, YouTube)

Finally I am wondering if I misunderstood you on the part about languages. You talked about why we have different languages and I won't dispute that account here although I am not convinced, but you also said that the original languages are available to everyone to learn if the try. Are you suggesting that an empoverished street child in a slum has the opportunity and resources to learn ancient Greek if only they desire to do so?

You know the context in which I spoke about those who are literate (I was inferring adults). You are throwing up a red herring with suggesting 'an impoverished street child in a slum' can learn Greek. That was not what I stated. You have ignored the context of what I wrote.

You seem to be trying to be difficult in twisting what I said to what I did not say.

Oz

 

[Athée]

the results of testing is hardly ever absolute but it almost always increases the body of knowledge

If you can't trust your interpretations how can you be confident in any of those increases, you could just be steadily gaining more flawed knowledge right?

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[Athée]

yes

So if using test X leads to result y and not y you feel that the test is still a good pathway to truth?

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[Athée]

you take something I say and then tell me what it means and I don't agree with your meaning

You said, I thought, that one of the reasons we can be very confident that a belief is true is if the idea has stood the test of time, as in if it has been around for a long time. This would mean that all old ideas are more likely to be true than new ones. If I am misreading you just clarify what you did mean so that we can move the discussion forward.
Thanks

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[Paul of Eugene OR]

I agree with that. Does this mean that in the absence of information from beyond the grave the Christian is simply stuck, unable to know for certain the things of God?

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Some of them anyway. Only I wouldn't use the phrase "from beyond the grave". I would say "from the heavenly realm" or words like that.

Look at how many self-identified Christians actually deny things we have discovered through ordinary science, such as the age of the earth and evolution!

Rev 10:4 When the seven peals of thunder had spoken, I was about to write; and I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Seal up the things which the seven peals of thunder have spoken and do not write them."
NASU