Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism

[DavidPT]

It is a hypothetical statement. No one lives 2000 years.

I've shown you that the phrase "a thousand" and "a thousand years" are used repeatedly in a figurative sense throughout the Word of God. Why would we not take it figuratively in the most symbolic and obscure book in the Bible?

If a thousand years means an undisclosed amount, that concept alone contradicts living a thousand years twice told. There is no such concept as living an undisclosed amount of years twice told. Why didn't the text simply say the following, since, according to the Amil school of thought, a thousand years in the Bible always means an undisclosed amount of years---even though he live a thousand years? Why can't that by itself mean 2000 years, or 3000 years, or even a million years, so on and on? Isn't that what Amils believe a thousand years in Revelation 20 means?

So why would the text in the passage in question say a thousand years twice told, unless it was literally meaning the amount specified? Has anyone to date even lived 2000 years? No. To date no one has even lived an entire thousand years. Why then is it unreasonable to think that a literal thousand years is meant? What if the text had instead said---even though he lived 70 years twice told, would you still treat that in the same manner, that the years specified are not what is literally being meant?

 

[sovereigngrace]

If a thousand years means an undisclosed amount, that concept alone contradicts living a thousand years twice told. There is no such concept as living an undisclosed amount of years twice told. Why didn't the text simply say the following, since, according to the Amil school of thought, a thousand years in the Bible always means an undisclosed amount of years---even though he live a thousand years? Why can't that by itself mean 2000 years, or 3000 years, or even a million years, so on and on? Isn't that what Amils believe a thousand years in Revelation 20 means?

So why would the text in the passage in question say a thousand years twice told, unless it was literally meaning the amount specified? Has anyone to date even lived 2000 years? No. To date no one has even lived an entire thousand years. Why then is it unreasonable to think that a literal thousand years is meant? What if the text had instead said---even though he lived 70 years twice told, would you still treat that in the same manner, that the years specified are not what is literally being meant?

It is hyperbole!

 

[claninja]

I appreciate you taking the time.

Do you believe in the literal, physical and visible future return of Jesus for His people as Partial Preterism does and Full Preterism doesn't?

I hold pretty close to the partial preterist belief as stated in the forum rules.

Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.


I believe Jesus came in judgment literally, physically, and on the clouds in 66-70ad.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I hold pretty close to the partial preterist belief as stated in the forum rules.

Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.


I believe Jesus came in judgment literally, physically, and on the clouds in 66-70ad.

There were 11 witnesses that saw Jesus taken up in a cloud into heaven. What witnesses do we have that actually saw Jesus descend in AD70?

 

[DavidPT]

It is hyperbole!

If someone said something utterly illogical, such as---though he live an eternity twice told--would you chalk that up as hyperbole as well? As to my point you were addressing in that post, you obviously failed to prove it wrong if this is all you have for a rebuttal. That aside for now---

Here's an example of a thousand in the Bible, except it has nothing to do with years though.

Numbers 35:4 And the suburbs of the cities, which ye shall give unto the Levites, shall reach from the wall of the city and outward a thousand cubits round about.
Numbers 35:5 And ye shall measure from without the city on the east side two thousand cubits, and on the south side two thousand cubits, and on the west side two thousand cubits, and on the north side two thousand cubits; and the city shall be in the midst: this shall be to them the suburbs of the cities.


Notice in the first verse, this---shall reach from the wall of the city and outward a thousand cubits round about.

Notice in the 2nd verse, this----And ye shall measure from without the city on the east side two thousand cubits, and on the south side two thousand cubits, and on the west side two thousand cubits, and on the north side two thousand cubits

What should this be telling someone? The 2nd verse proves that a literal thousand cubits are meant in the first verse, the fact the 2nd verse says 2000 cubits rather a thousand cubits. Obviously then, thousand is meaning in the literal sense here and not in a undisclosed amount sense, otherwise the 2nd verse would have said a thousand cubits as well, the fact, a thousand, if it is meaning in an undisclosed amount sense, can also mean 2000, 3000, etc, apparently.


In the Bible then, a thousand can mean in the literal sense at times, as shown above, and can mean in a non literal sense sometimes. Yet when it comes to a thousand followed by years, it has to be understood in the literal sense every single time, the fact that is the pattern throughout the entire Bible, any number followed by years is always meaning the literal amount of years specified.

 

[claninja]

There were 11 witnesses that saw Jesus taken up in a cloud into heaven. What witnesses do we have that actually saw Jesus descend in AD70?

could they visibly see Jesus when he was in that cloud? No

Acts 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.

So in fact, they did not see Jesus enter heaven, as before he entered heaven, he was taken OUT OF THEIR SIGHT by a cloud.

How will Jesus return from heaven? in the same way He went into heaven: out of sight in a cloud.

Acts 1:11 This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Where do we meet the Lord upon resurrection? IN the clouds.

1 thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

So I don't suspect there would be witnesses that literally saw Jesus in the clouds when He came in judgment upon Israel in 66-70ad.

Now there are recorded histories (josephus, tacitus) that saw armies moving through the clouds above Jerusalem in 66-70ad, but none that report specifically seeing Jesus.

 

[DavidPT]

Let's examine this one next.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Let's put aside the thousand years for a moment and focus on this part first---that one day---as one day. How do you interpret that? 'You' meaning anyone that cares to reply. Do you think that is literally meaning one single day, or do you think it is perhaps meaning two days, or even 3 days, IOW, an undisclosed amount of days?

In the event you see it meaning one literal day, in order for the verse to remain consistent, since something is being compared to a literal single day, that too has to be meaning the literal amount specified. If one is not willing to go way out in left field with the 'one day' part, by claiming it's meaning any other amount imaginable, just not the amount clearly specified, then this same one should not be willing to go way out in left field by claiming the ' thousand years' part is meaning any other amount imaginable, just not the amount clearly specified, either.

Clearly 2 Peter 3:8 only makes sense if the amounts specified are literally meaning those amounts. It makes no sense to compare a non literal amount to a literal amount.

 

[sovereigngrace]

If someone said something utterly illogical, such as---though he live an eternity twice told--would you chalk that up as hyperbole as well? As to my point you were addressing in that post, you obviously failed to prove it wrong if this is all you have for a rebuttal. That aside for now---

Here's an example of a thousand in the Bible, except it has nothing to do with years though.

Numbers 35:4 And the suburbs of the cities, which ye shall give unto the Levites, shall reach from the wall of the city and outward a thousand cubits round about.
Numbers 35:5 And ye shall measure from without the city on the east side two thousand cubits, and on the south side two thousand cubits, and on the west side two thousand cubits, and on the north side two thousand cubits; and the city shall be in the midst: this shall be to them the suburbs of the cities.


Notice in the first verse, this---shall reach from the wall of the city and outward a thousand cubits round about.

Notice in the 2nd verse, this----And ye shall measure from without the city on the east side two thousand cubits, and on the south side two thousand cubits, and on the west side two thousand cubits, and on the north side two thousand cubits

What should this be telling someone? The 2nd verse proves that a literal thousand cubits are meant in the first verse, the fact the 2nd verse says 2000 cubits rather a thousand cubits. Obviously then, thousand is meaning in the literal sense here and not in a undisclosed amount sense, otherwise the 2nd verse would have said a thousand cubits as well, the fact, a thousand, if it is meaning in an undisclosed amount sense, can also mean 2000, 3000, etc, apparently.


In the Bible then, a thousand can mean in the literal sense at times, as shown above, and can mean in a non literal sense sometimes. Yet when it comes to a thousand followed by years, it has to be understood in the literal sense every single time, the fact that is the pattern throughout the entire Bible, any number followed by years is always meaning the literal amount of years specified.

John Metcalfe puts it very well: “a thousand” in the Old Testament, in a booklet ‘Premillennialism Exposed’, “One reads of a thousand hills, a thousand vines, a thousand Philistines, a thousand children of Bigvai, a thousand Ammonites, a thousand spears, a thousand camels, a thousand horses, a thousand chariots, a thousand judges, a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, but never of a thousand years reign, no, not from Genesis to Malachi.”

And continues, “One can discover a thousand shields for a thousand Israelites, a thousand cubits and a thousand footmen to traverse them, a thousand talents and a thousand oxen to carry them, a thousand silver pieces and a thousand Edomites to covet them, a thousand baths and a thousand men to bathe in them, but what no one can find, no, not one of a thousand, is a thousand years reign at the end of time with the second coming of Christ preceding this millennial invention.”

 

[sovereigngrace]

could they visibly see Jesus when he was in that cloud? No

Acts 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.

So in fact, they did not see Jesus enter heaven, as before he entered heaven, he was taken OUT OF THEIR SIGHT by a cloud.

How will Jesus return from heaven? in the same way He went into heaven: out of sight in a cloud.

Acts 1:11 This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Where do we meet the Lord upon resurrection? IN the clouds.

1 thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

So I don't suspect there would be witnesses that literally saw Jesus in the clouds when He came in judgment upon Israel in 66-70ad.

Now there are recorded histories (josephus, tacitus) that saw armies moving through the clouds above Jerusalem in 66-70ad, but none that report specifically seeing Jesus.

He will come physically, visibly, and literally - just as He left.

Acts 1:10 says, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven is the way He will return. How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Personally: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “As ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”

Revelation 1:7, speaking of this climactic last day, John says, “Behold, he (Christ) cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail because of him”

This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.” The swiftness of Christ’s coming and the speed of the rescue of the saints precludes any possibility of the wicked repenting.

Jesus explains in Matthew 24:27: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 26:64: “Hereafter shall ye the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

This is repeated in Mark 14:62: “ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:26–27: “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

This is the end of the age. It is the end of the world. He is coming to glorify the elect and this corrupt earth when He comes.

 

[claninja]

In the Bible then, a thousand can mean in the literal sense at times, as shown above, and can mean in a non literal sense sometimes. Yet when it comes to a thousand followed by years, it has to be understood in the literal sense every single time, the fact that is the pattern throughout the entire Bible, any number followed by years is always meaning the literal amount of years specified.

Scripture should always be used to interpret scripture, especially when it comes to visions and parabolic language

1.) satan is bound for 1,000 years so as to no longer deceive the nations
Revelation 20:1-3 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pita and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended.

This is fulfilled by the 1st coming of Jesus, through his ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension.
1 John 3:8 The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil

Mark 3:27 But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.

Hebrews 2:14-15 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.

2.) Once the 1,000 years are over, satan is released for a short period of time.
Revelation 20:3 After that, he must be released for a short period of time.

Satan's period is short when he is cast out of heaven, at Christ's ascension.
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.”

John 12:31-33 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

3.) Those who sit on thrones with authority to judge and those do not partake in the mark of the beast and nor worship it, live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years.
Revelation 20:4-6 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Those who sit on the thrones with authority to Judge are the disciples during the time of regeneration when the spirit was sent upon Christ's ascension to sit on the throne.
Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

Those who partake in the 1st resurrection are believers who have been born again and are made a kingdom of priests.

John 5:25 Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Ephesians 2:5 made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.


When using scripture to interpret scripture, this vision points very much so to the work of Christ in His ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the spirit on those born again.

The 1,000 years is mentioned nowhere else in scripture. Not one verse. Thus based on scripture that i have posted, I would argue the 1,000 years is simply a reference to the fulfillment of David never lacking a man to sit on the throne (jeremiah 33:17), as it was exactly 1,000 years between the time of David and Christ.

 

[DavidPT]

Scripture should always be used to interpret scripture, especially when it comes to visions and parabolic language

I of course agree with that, and have actually used in the past, Scripture to interpret Scripture in order to prove my position about the thousand years in question. I can't help it if some failed to see it the way I tend to see it. That doesn't automatically make me wrong just because they weren't seeing it the way I am. That aside.

If the pattern throughout the entire Bible is this, whenever a number followed by years is mentioned, it is always meaning the amount specified every single time, why would a monkey wrench then be thrown into this pattern if this number is a thousand? One can easily argue, in the Bible, something such as day, there is no set pattern for this. Sometimes it can mean a literal day, sometimes it can mean an era of time, so on and so on. Where I would fully agree. But how can one make the same argument about numbers being followed by years, that sometimes literal years are meant, and sometimes they are not, when every time this combination is used, it is always literally meaning the amount specified? Why would this not also be true if the number is a thousand?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Let's examine this one next.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Let's put aside the thousand years for a moment and focus on this part first---that one day---as one day. How do you interpret that? 'You' meaning anyone that cares to reply. Do you think that is literally meaning one single day, or do you think it is perhaps meaning two days, or even 3 days, IOW, an undisclosed amount of days?

In the event you see it meaning one literal day, in order for the verse to remain consistent, since something is being compared to a literal single day, that too has to be meaning the literal amount specified. If one is not willing to go way out in left field with the 'one day' part, by claiming it's meaning any other amount imaginable, just not the amount clearly specified, then this same one should not be willing to go way out in left field by claiming the ' thousand years' part is meaning any other amount imaginable, just not the amount clearly specified, either.

Clearly 2 Peter 3:8 only makes sense if the amounts specified are literally meaning those amounts. It makes no sense to compare a non literal amount to a literal amount.

Let's examine this one next.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Let's put aside the thousand years for a moment and focus on this part first---that one day---as one day. How do you interpret that? 'You' meaning anyone that cares to reply. Do you think that is literally meaning one single day, or do you think it is perhaps meaning two days, or even 3 days, IOW, an undisclosed amount of days?

In the event you see it meaning one literal day, in order for the verse to remain consistent, since something is being compared to a literal single day, that too has to be meaning the literal amount specified. If one is not willing to go way out in left field with the 'one day' part, by claiming it's meaning any other amount imaginable, just not the amount clearly specified, then this same one should not be willing to go way out in left field by claiming the ' thousand years' part is meaning any other amount imaginable, just not the amount clearly specified, either.

Clearly 2 Peter 3:8 only makes sense if the amounts specified are literally meaning those amounts. It makes no sense to compare a non literal amount to a literal amount.

Isaiah 30:17 is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number “one thousand,” albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth, “one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one.”

To insist on a literal rendering, this word needs prefixed by a number to denote exact value. However, in the case of 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 20 no number precedes the word chilia thus leaving it indefinite. There are no grounds therefore to insist it represents a literal “one thousand” and no proof that we are looking at one thousand years. It simply doesn’t state such. Notwithstanding, there is a noun meaning "a thousand,” in the sense of a (singular) group of 1000: “chilias.” This is used, in the plural, for phrases in Scripture like “the number of the men was five thousand.”

It seems quite strange for Premillennialism to build such a mammoth theological edifice on such a flimsy foundation. We must question the wisdom of insisting on a singular ‘one thousand years’ when it is not anywhere in the text or found in the original. It would appear, the indefinite nature of this plural word would give more force to the Amillennial position than the Premillennial one.

The terms “one thousand” and “a thousand” (singular) are to be found nowhere in the original Greek rendering of Revelation 20, they must be inserted. Rather, we find the Greek plural word chilia repeated several times. This word [5507] which carries an indefinite sense of thousand is found six times in Revelation 20 and twice in 2 Peter 3. This word can be prefixed by a number to denote value. However, in the case of 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 20 no number is given thus leaving it indefinite. There is no reason to view it a one thousand and no warrant to insist on a literal one thousand. It doesn’t state such.

 

[claninja]

He will come physically, visibly, and literally - just as He left.

Acts 1:10 says, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven is the way He will return. How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Personally: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “As ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”

This is wrong. Jesus didn't go visibly INTO heaven. Scripture states the exact opposite, that a cloud HID HIM FROM THEIR SIGHT.

Acts 1:9 After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.

At the resurrection where do we meet Jesus? IN the clouds, not below the clouds.

1 thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Revelation 1:7, speaking of this climactic last day, John says, “Behold, he (Christ) cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail because of him”

This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.” The swiftness of Christ’s coming and the speed of the rescue of the saints precludes any possibility of the wicked repenting.

the son of man coming on the clouds is a reference to Daniel 7, where Jesus comes on the clouds TO THE FATHER, as clearly stated by scripture.

Daniel 7:13 In my vision in the night I continued to watch, and I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence.

Just as Jesus sitting at the right hand became a present reality at the ascension, so to did the son of man coming on the clouds.
Matthew 26:64 You have said it yourself,” Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Powerj and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Thus revelation correctly has "is coming" in present tense form and not future tense
revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds,

"will see" is future tense, as all will stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Revelation 1:7 and every eye will see Him

2 corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

 

[claninja]

I of course agree with that, and have actually used in the past, Scripture to interpret Scripture in order to prove my position about the thousand years in question. I can't help it if some failed to see it the way I tend to see it. That doesn't automatically make me wrong just because they weren't seeing it the way I am. That aside.

If the pattern throughout the entire Bible is this, whenever a number followed by years is mentioned, it is always meaning the amount specified every single time, why would a monkey wrench then be thrown into this pattern if this number is a thousand? One can easily argue, in the Bible, something such as day, there is no set pattern for this. Sometimes it can mean a literal day, sometimes it can mean an era of time, so on and so on. Where I would fully agree. But how can one make the same argument about numbers being followed by years, that sometimes literal years are meant, and sometimes they are not, when every time this combination is used, it is always literally meaning the amount specified? Why would this not also be true if the number is a thousand?

As stated in my previous post (#452), I take the 1,000 years to be literal and parabolic. Literal in that there were literally 1,000 years between the time of David and Christ, and parabolic in that they represent the fulfillment of David never lacking a man on throne (Jeremiah 33:17).

Thus it was a 1,000 literal years from the time of David to Christ, in which Christ bound satan and ascended to the right hand to fulfill David never lacking a man to sit on the throne.

It was Christ's ministry, death, resurrection, ascension to the right hand, and sending of the Spirit on those born again, effectually making them a kingdom of priests and immune to the 2nd death, that fulfills the promise that David would never lack a man on throne.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This is wrong. Jesus didn't go visibly INTO heaven. Scripture states the exact opposite, that a cloud HID HIM FROM THEIR SIGHT.

Acts 1:9 After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.

At the resurrection where do we meet Jesus? IN the clouds, not below the clouds.

1 thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Of course He disappeared. Heaven is out of sight! But He went visibly, physically and literally from their presence, and He will be coming back visibly, physically and literally for us. Please read: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”

the son of man coming on the clouds is a reference to Daniel 7, where Jesus comes on the clouds TO THE FATHER, as clearly stated by scripture.

Daniel 7:13 In my vision in the night I continued to watch, and I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence.

Just as Jesus sitting at the right hand became a present reality at the ascension, so to did the son of man coming on the clouds.

That was going up.

Matthew 26:64 You have said it yourself,” Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Powerj and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Thus revelation correctly has "is coming" in present tense form and not future tense
revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds,

"will see" is future tense, as all will stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Revelation 1:7 and every eye will see Him

2 corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

Revelation 1:7 is not remotely speaking about "the judgment seat of Christ." You import that into the text. It is talking about His literal, physical, visible return. Please re-read: “Behold, he (Christ) cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail because of him”

 

[claninja]

Of course He disappeared. Heaven is out of sight! But He went visibly, physically and literally from their presence, and He will be coming back visibly, physically and literally for us. Please read: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”

Why do you continue to ignore the scriptures? How did Jesus go INTO heaven? Out of sight in a cloud.

Acts 1:9 After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.

Thus just as Jesus went INTO heaven hidden in a cloud, He would return in that same way. Where does scripture say we will meet Jesus? IN the clouds

1 thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

That was going up.

BINGO, the only reference to the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven in the OT is in regards to Jesus coming to the Father.

Did the sandhedrin literally "from now on" "SEE" the son of man coming on the clouds to the Father at his ascension? No.

Revelation 1:7 is not remotely speaking about "the judgment seat of Christ." You import that into the text. It is talking about His literal, physical, visible return. Please re-read: “Behold, he (Christ) cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail because of him”

How can every eye literally see Jesus' return if Jesus returns in the same manner as he ascended, and not every eye saw him ascend? If I can't see a bird or plane flying through the sky over Jerusalem from the U.S. how could I possibly see Jesus literally descend over Jerusalem?

All eyes will see Jesus, as all will stand before His judgment seat Jew and gentile alike.

 

[David Kent]

Is there an official theological term known as partial futurism?

There is now.

 

[sovereigngrace]

How can every eye literally see Jesus' return if Jesus returns in the same manner as he ascended, and not every eye saw him ascend? If I can't see a bird or plane flying through the sky over Jerusalem from the U.S. how could I possibly see Jesus literally descend over Jerusalem?

All eyes will see Jesus, as all will stand before His judgment seat Jew and gentile alike.

Why are you limiting God and diminishing the Word of God? He said it and He will accomplish it!!! My previous rebuttal still stands.

 

[David Kent]

The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. (NIV)

These things are clear when we rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding.

So are they made a literal pillar like Lot's wife?

 

[claninja]

Why are you limiting God and diminishing the Word of God? He said it and He will accomplish it!!! My previous rebuttal still stands.

Your response doesn’t address anything I posted. I can ask you the same question. It is not my position that must change the definitions of words to make my interpretation work, it is yours. You must change near to mean far and Genea to mean solely race in order for your interpretations to work.