Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism

[claninja]

There is now.

The glass half empty prospect has always been a pessimistic one

 

[DavidPT]

Isaiah 30:17 is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number “one thousand,” albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth, “one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one.”

To insist on a literal rendering, this word needs prefixed by a number to denote exact value. However, in the case of 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 20 no number precedes the word chilia thus leaving it indefinite. There are no grounds therefore to insist it represents a literal “one thousand” and no proof that we are looking at one thousand years. It simply doesn’t state such. Notwithstanding, there is a noun meaning "a thousand,” in the sense of a (singular) group of 1000: “chilias.” This is used, in the plural, for phrases in Scripture like “the number of the men was five thousand.”

Perhaps other Premils might insist on a literal rendering of that verse in Isaiah 30:17, but this Premil wouldn't. So, I don't disagree with you on that point. Let's try an analogy of sorts then, in regards to 2 Peter 3:8.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


From our perspective this verse might look like this---that one day is with us as 24 hours, and 24 hours as one day.

Is there anything not literally true about that? Is part of that non literal, while part of it is literal? If this is literally true from our perspective, why would it not be literally true from God's perspective, if to Him one literal day is as a literal thousand years, and a literal thousand years as one literal day?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Your response doesn’t address anything I posted. I can ask you the same question. It is not my position that must change the definitions of words to make my interpretation work, it is yours. You must change near to mean far and Genea to mean solely race in order for your interpretations to work.

My previous rebuttals actually rebut your previous post. It is pointless repeating.

 

[David Kent]

At the resurrection where do we meet Jesus? IN the clouds, not below the clouds.

Your interpolation.
We will meet him "In the air."

 

[sovereigngrace]

Perhaps other Premils might insist on a literal rendering of that verse in Isaiah 30:17, but this Premil wouldn't. So, I don't disagree with you on that point. Let's try an analogy of sorts then, in regards to 2 Peter 3:8.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


From our perspective this verse might look like this---that one day is with us as 24 hours, and 24 hours as one day.

Is there anything not literally true about that? Is part of that non literal, while part of it is literal? If this is literally true from our perspective, why would it not be literally true from God's perspective, if to Him one literal day is as a literal thousand years, and a literal thousand years as one literal day?

This is where literalists miss the point. It is not the symbol, number or parable that really matters, it is the truth behind it. In this case, it is simply saying that time is nothing with God.

 

[DavidPT]

Thus revelation correctly has "is coming" in present tense form and not future tense
revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds,

Can you expand on this further? Currently I'm not grasping how you are applying that in present tense. Doesn't that suggest something ongoing at the time? It's now 2020, are you still applying this part in this same present tense?

 

[Lost4words]

Again i will say this. Revelation is the most misinterpreted and misunderstood book in the whole Bible.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Can you expand on this further? Currently I'm not grasping how you are applying that in present tense. Doesn't that suggest something ongoing at the time? It's now 2020, are you still applying this part in this same present tense?

I suspect that he might believe that the second coming is an ongoing process rather than a future physical climactic event.

 

[David Kent]

The glass half empty prospect has always been a pessimistic one

I have been on training courses and the leader keeps saying "Is the glass of water half full or half empty?" I always answer, "Neither, it is half a glass of water." They can't cope with that. I suppose keep asking that question is how they make their money.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Again i will say this. Revelation is the most misinterpreted and misunderstood book in the whole Bible.

... unless you are a Preterist!

 

[Lost4words]

... unless you are a Preterist!

Dont you mean, unles you are 'you?'

 

[sovereigngrace]

Dont you mean, unles you are 'you?'

It was tongue-in-cheek. There are many issues I agree with PP on, but i find it getting increasingly extreme and getting closer to FP.

 

[claninja]

My previous rebuttals actually rebut your previous post. It is pointless repeating.

Your subjective argument is pointless. I can say the exact same thing. In previous posts you were responding to specific points, but then just switched to generic subjective responses like post #465 and #460, which is really telling.

 

[claninja]

Your interpolation.
We will meet him "In the air."

My Bible says we will be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS. Are clouds not in the air?

1 thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

 

[claninja]

I have been on training courses and the leader keeps saying "Is the glass of water half full or half empty?" I always answer, "Neither, it is half a glass of water." They can't cope with that. I suppose keep asking that question is how they make their money.

As I'm sure you know, Its a proverbial phrase that indicates the same situation could be viewed as is either pessimistic or optimistic, depending on the viewer. Those who are pessimistic will view the situation as half empty, while those who are optimistic will view the same situation as optimistic. So it is with eschatology and the partial pret/fut discussion.

Many futurists that I run into on these forums are very much doom and gloom: future antichrist person, tribulation, animal sacrifices returning in a 3rd temple, satan and sin getting worse, kingdom is not yet present, there are 2 peoples of God, Christ doesn't always appear to be the fulfillment of all the promises of God....

Many preterists that I run into on these forums are much more positive: kingdom is present, the gospel is all over the world, no 3rd physical temple, Christ if fulfillment of all the promises of God, there is one peoples of God regarless of race......

the focus more so on futurism tends to be the end times associated with the nation of Israel, while preterism sees Christ and his work on the cross as the eschatological fulfillment of the promises of God

 

[Lost4words]

I believe Jesus when He said 'This' generation, not a 'future' generation.

I believe Jesus when He said 'must soon take place', not 'whats going to take place in the future'.

I believe Jesus when He said 'for the time is near', not 'for the time is near in 2,000 years time'

 

[DavidPT]

My Bible says we will be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS. Are clouds not in the air?

1 thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

But as to the cloud in Acts 1, how high up would you speculate it was? Because until the cloud received Him out of their sight, He was obviously still in their sight as He was ascending in the air, which then means this has to be part of the returning in like manner, that at some point after meeting in the clouds He would have to be descending, no longer hidden in the clouds, thus visible to those on earth, eventually touching down on earth like Zechariah 14:4 shows, which appears to basically be the same place He ascended from.

Luke 24:50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.


Mark 11:1 And when they came nigh to Jerusalem, unto Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount of Olives, he sendeth forth two of his disciples

The latter showing the connection to the mount of Olives with that of Bethany in Luke 24:50. And not that Mark 11:1 is meaning during the time of Luke 24:50.

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

And like I already pointed out, the same place here in Zechariah 14:4 appears to be the same place He basically ascended from in Luke 24:50. And since there are two comings, and not just one coming, why not then?

 

[claninja]

Can you expand on this further? Currently I'm not grasping how you are applying that in present tense. Doesn't that suggest something ongoing at the time? It's now 2020, are you still applying this part in this same present tense?

Absolutely.

Notice Jesus states to the pharisees, scribes, and elders that "from now on" they would see him sitting at the right hand AND coming on the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

These are obvious references to 2 prophecies in the OT (psalm 110:1 and Daniel 7:13-14) as being fulfilled at Christ's ascension to the Father.

I view these prophecies as fulfilled at Christ's ascension and also present realities. I believe Christ is sitting at the right hand and that he is coming on the clouds.

Thus just as "from now on" the pharisees and elders would "see" the son of man coming on the clouds at Jesus ascension, so to would those at the destruction of Jerusalem "see" the son of man coming on the clouds.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Luke 21:27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 

[David Kent]

My Bible says we will be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS. Are clouds not in the air?

1 thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

• 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

To view in context

13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jesus will descend.
He will bring those who have fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
We will meet them in the air.
Still descending, It doesn't say he will return, or stay in the clouds. He will descend.

 

[DavidPT]

I believe Jesus when He said 'must soon take place', not 'whats going to take place in the future'.

Maybe you are just looking at it all wrong. He could have meant that these things would soon begin to take place starting way back then, which can also include events far into the future. It would basically mean one thing keeps leading to another until all things are ultimately finished. Which then might comprise of 2000 years or more from start to finish.