Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism

[claninja]

I don't own that name (or will) because of the confusion and error that comes with Preterism and also the heresy attached to many Preterist beliefs.

confusion only remains for those who do not actually know what partial preterism is

 

[mkgal1]

Anyway, this is rich coming from someone who refuses to present any Scripture proving a future second coming of Christ and a physical resurrection

I've explained my reason for not responding to your demands. If you can't see that Jesus was referring to something that happened in the lifetime of His contemporaries when He said this (and looking back in history, we can see that the priesthood was stripped from the ancient Judaic system in the destruction of Jerusalem) then nothing else I say will be helpful to either of us (or anyone else, for that matter):

Luke 21:20 ~ But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.

John 11:48 ~ If we let Him go on like this, everyone will believe in Him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”​

 

[claninja]

So, are you a partial futurist? You have indicated that you believe in a future coming of Christ and a future resurrection.

The glass half full = the glass half empty. So Yes, I have no problem with the term partial futurist (albeit made up) since i still live in the flesh and my resurrection
is still future.

 

[sovereigngrace]

If it's not those living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, that are being attacked and surrounded in verses 7-9, then who is being attacked and surrounded in verses 7-9? And if those in verse 4 are not even relevant to verses 7-9, why did John bother bringing them up to begin with then?

Dead in Christ now

The righteous are in heaven and on the earth during the intra-Advent period. Revelation 20 shows both.

The reigning of the souls in heaven in Revelation 20 could only begin after Christ paid the penalty for their sin and as a result defeated it through the first resurrection (His resurrection). This as a result conquered death and Satan. What is more, that victory removed Satan's ability to condemn the elect before the throne of heaven. He was then banished forever (Revelation 12). He must now accuse us direct down here.

Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls (tas psychas) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

After John had seen Satan being bound so that the Gospel can invade the nations in the first 3 verse of Revelation 20, the scenario changes: He sees thrones.

Where are they?

Thrones! Thrones are always located within the heavenly domain prior to the new heavens and new earth. Thrones are mentioned 47 times in Revelation.

There are only 3 reference to the throne of God being on earth. They all relate to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:5, 22:1, 3) after the millennial is completed. Of the rest: every mention of “throne” or “thrones” in Revelation is in heaven, apart from 3 pertaining to the kingdom of darkness. One refers to Satan’s throne in Revelation 2:13; the other two refer to the beast’s throne in Revelation 13:2; 16:10.

Take particular note of the fact that we are looking at a heavenly scene. We are looking at the souls of God’s people who are currently in heaven after the resurrection of Christ (the first resurrection).

Revelation 20 shows the victory, blessing and authority the dead in Christ enjoyed in heaven after Christ’s victory over death.

The scene that we observe in this symbolic passage is definitely a heavenly one. The believers in view are deliberately described as “the souls” proving that we are looking at the great heavenly host of the redeemed of God in disembodied form. As yet they have not received their glorified bodies.

These are believers that have been killed in this life for the faith.

This same group is seen elsewhere in Revelation.

Revelation 6:9-10 similarly says, closely paralleling the scene portrayed in Revelation 20, “I saw under the altar the souls (tas psychas) of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

The very next verse of this narrative (6:11) confirms, “And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

Here these disembodied saints are described as resting before “the altar” in heaven “for a little season” until the arrival of their “fellowservants” and “brethren” that are still being persecuted and “dwell on the earth.” This verifies the fact that this group is speaking of the disembodied saints and that they are located in heaven. Those who would suggest that “the souls” outlined in Revelation 20:4 are anything other than the same heavenly saints described in Revelation 6:9-10 are sadly mistaken. The Premillennial argument that they are glorified believers reigning over the wicked on earth during a supposed future post-Second Advent millennium is surely unsound?

Revelation 5, which is evidently located before the Second Advent, describes the same kingly/priestly reign of the redeemed in heaven, saying, “they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (aorist active indicative) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made (aorist active indicative) us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign (future article) on the earth” (v. 9).

Revelation 15:1-3 correspondingly parallels, speaking of the intra-Advent period, “I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them (the souls) that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass.”

Camp of the saints

The camp of the Saints are believers on earth are we having the final future coming of Jesus. The saints are persecuted on all sides at the end. Christ Comes and rescues all the persecuted saints, and unites the dead in Christ and the living in Christ in the air, destroys the wicked and return with them to inherit the new perfect regenerated earth.

What happens at the end of the millennium mirrors what other Scripture tells us happens at the end of our age. There is an intense persecution at the end. Christ comes to intervene in that. He Comes to judge. He introduces perfect eternal rest for the elect on the new earth.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The glass half full = the glass half empty. So Yes, I have no problem with the term partial futurist (albeit made up) since i still live in the flesh and my resurrection
is still future.

Please list the Scriptures you believe literally refer to the second coming of Christ?

Can you please list the scriptures that you believe prove a literal physical future resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked?

When did/does the dead in Christ get their new physical bodies?

 

[mkgal1]

This as a result conquered death and Satan. What is more, that victory removed Satan's ability to condemn the elect before the throne of heaven. He was then banished forever (Revelation 12). He must now accuse us direct down here.

But those accusations are empty with God's forgiveness of sin. Jesus ushered in "the age of righteousness" with His victory over death and Satan (what you're describing here).

 

[Messenger 3k]

Please list the Scriptures you believe literally refer to the second coming of Christ?

Can you please list the scriptures that you believe prove a literal physical future resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked?

When did/does the dead in Christ get their new physical bodies?

While at it, I'm still waiting for simple answers to these simple questions.

1. If Christ started reigning about 2000 years ago, how come Revelation 20 identifies it as a thousand years only?

2. When exactly does Christ begin reigning? Two days after His death? Or in Revelation 20?

3. How is Revelation 20 happening now? Where's the mark of the beast? Where are those who didn't take it? When did they resurrect?

I can break down my questions some more if you have issues with my analysis.

No long articles. No Greek renderings. No weak concordance.

Simple answers for simple questions.

I'm waiting.

 

[sovereigngrace]

How exactly?

Are you a dance instructor?

I've countered your erroneous view with three simple questions you've skillfully danced around.

No need for the nastiness.

1. If Christ started reigning about 2000 years ago, how come Revelation 20 identifies it as a thousand years only?

Because 1000 is repeatedly used figuratively throughout the Scriptures. Why would we not take it to be the same in the most favorite book in the Bible? If you are adamant in interpreting 1,000 years hyper-literally, how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes? Do you accept that the figure “a thousand” (including a thousand years) and ten thousand are repeatedly used in Scripture to denote a vast indeterminate amount or period of time?

Moses declares in Deuteronomy 7:9, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 91 says, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7). Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Deuteronomy 32:30 asks a rhetorical question, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?" Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, in Joshua 23:10, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one." This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth. Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 50:10-11 says, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Job 9:2-3 declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah 60:21-22 instructs, in relation to the new earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel." Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

2. When exactly does Christ begin reigning? Two days after His death? Or in Revelation 20?

Same thing. Both correlate.

3. How is Revelation 20 happening now? Where's the mark of the beast? Where are those who didn't take it? When did they resurrect?

It is a spiritual mark. It has been there from the beginning. Genesis 4:15 tells us that “the LORD set a mark upon Cain.” This was Satan's first convert to populate Hades.

There are 2 marks in Revelation. Is God’s mark also literal? References - Revelation 3:12, 7:3, 4 (x2), 5 (x3), 6 (x3), 7 (x3), 8 (x3), 9:4, 14:1, 22:4.

 

[sovereigngrace]

But those accusations are empty with God's forgiveness of sin. Jesus ushered in "the age of righteousness" with His victory over death and Satan (what you're describing here).

Not so! This current age is an evil age. The Scriptures make that very clear! The age to come is the age of righteousness. When Jesus comes He will transform us and nature. Sin, death and corruption have been fully and eternally banished. 2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Creation will be finally purged of wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and insurrection is indeed destroyed by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as Premils insists. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.

The new heavens and new earth are such a stark contrast to this current present evil age that is blighted by all the result of the fall, including the existence of Satan. The new arrangement is especially noted for “righteousness.”

Romans 8:19-23 continues, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

God in His providence and infinite wisdom has ordained a day when He will finally bring time, evil and the bondage of corruption to an end. This passage speaks of an approaching climactic event in history that will eventually and eternally release all creation from a position of current anguish and despair to a place of total liberation and relief. In fact, there can be no doubt; the central focus of this whole passage is the yearning of “the whole creation” for the day when “the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” There is indeed a termination to the “bondage of corruption” – it is the one and only future all-consummating Coming of Christ.

There is a direct connection between the liberation of “creation” and the liberation of the “sons of God.” Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will simultaneously be delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.” The day of redemption is shown throughout Scripture to be the second coming of Christ. It is there is that man experiences the final part of redemption – the redemption of his body.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I've explained my reason for not responding to your demands. If you can't see that Jesus was referring to something that happened in the lifetime of His contemporaries when He said this (and looking back in history, we can see that the priesthood was stripped from the ancient Judaic system in the destruction of Jerusalem) then nothing else I say will be helpful to either of us (or anyone else, for that matter):

Luke 21:20 ~ But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.

John 11:48 ~ If we let Him go on like this, everyone will believe in Him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”​

With every passing post and every avoiding comment you reinforce the thesis of this thread.

 

[mkgal1]

With every passing post and every avoiding comment you reinforce the thesis of this thread.

You mean your confirmation bias.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You mean your confirmation bias.

Not so. I have not come across a born-again Christian yet that is ashamed of the literal physical visible future coming of the Lord and unwilling to show the source of their hope. Your uncomfortableness and avoidance is telling! I don't know anyone else apart from Full Preterists that struggle to do this.

Why would any Bible believing Christian want to duck around furnishing us with scriptural support for a future second coming, while on the other hand posting multiple Scriptures that do pertain to the second coming of the Christ and relating them to the coming of Titus in AD70?

It certainly suggest you have something to hide!

Please list the Scriptures you believe literally refer to the second coming of Christ?

Can you please list the scriptures that you believe prove a literal physical future resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked?

When did/does the dead in Christ get their new physical bodies?

If you believed in a future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ you would happily relay that to the rest of us.

 

[mkgal1]

With every passing post and every avoiding comment you reinforce the thesis of this thread.

You mean your confirmation bias.

Not so. I have not come across a born-again Christian yet that is ashamed of the literal physical visible future coming of the Lord and unwilling to show the source of their hope. Your uncomfortableness and avoidance is telling! I don't know anyone else apart from Full Preterists that struggle to do this.

It certainly suggest you have something to hide!

There it is! I have never implied that I'm "ashamed of the literal physical visible future coming of the LORD". Never. That, instead, seems to be your presumption that you're trying desperately to convince yourself of. You've already shown that you will find what you're presuming is true (even when it's not there). Likewise......people will miss what's right in front of them, because they are focused too intently on something else.....as this old exercise shows:

 

[sovereigngrace]

There it is! I have never implied that I'm "ashamed of the literal physical visible future coming of the LORD". Never. That, instead, seems to be your presumption that you're trying desperately to convince yourself of. You've already shown that you will find what you're presuming is true (even when it's not there).

Please present Scripture that you believe supports a literal coming of Christ and a future general resurrection of the bodies?

 

[mkgal1]

If you believed in a future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ you would happily relay that to the rest of us.

Why does it not satisfy you that I say that I believe He IS reconciling ALL things to Himself....and that I believe He WILL return again....and that there IS a future resurrection? I don't believe in gnosticism - where all that is physical is evil and only the spiritual is holy. I believe He will transform the physical creation and restore it to its original form of "good".

 

[sovereigngrace]

Why does it not satisfy you that I say that I believe He IS reconciling ALL things to Himself....and that I believe He WILL return again....and that there IS a future resurrection?

(1) Because you constantly rubbish every second coming passage that I attribute to the second coming and rather relate it to the coming of Titus in AD70. So it is fair for me to ask you to furnish your second coming passages, if you have any.

(2) Because 1 Peter 3:15 instructs us: "be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope."

(3) Because this is a major doctrine and a fundamental of the faith!

(4) Because a lot of your views or even identified by Partial Preterist here as being Full Preterist.

You mentioned 'Preterism', which is confusing to say the least as there are two very different versions of Preterism.

1) Partial Preterism is generally considered to be the historic orthodox interpretation as it affirms all eschatological points of the ecumenical Creeds of the Church. Some partial Preterists may believe that the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord were not historically fulfilled. (wikipedia)

2) Full Preterism differs from partial Preterism in that full Preterists believe that the destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled all eschatological or "end times" events, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming, or Parousia, and the Final Judgment. (wikipedia)

I would like to correct and comment on your list of partial Preterist claims.

• They have the old covenant ending in AD70.
• The Old Covenant ended when the veil was torn in two, at the time of Christ death.
• They have the new covenant commencing in AD70.
• The New Covenant was established when the veil was torn in two, at the time of Christs death. AD 70 made the Temple desolate so that the Old Covenant could not be performed anymore. The Gospel needed to be spread before the destruction took place. This is known as the time of the Gentiles.
• They have “this age” ending in AD70.
• Yes, as "this age" was known as the Old Covenant. Ended at the time of Christs death and its purpose destroyed and made desolate in AD 70.
• They have “the age to come” starting in AD70.
• Started at the time of Christ death and completed on the Day of Pentecost. We now live in this age.
• They have “the last days” finishing in AD70
• According to Matthew, Jesus said it would happen in their generation.
• They have “the last day” of “the last days” occurring in AD70.
• The last day of the Old Covenant, not the last day of the world.
• They have “the day of redemption” happening in AD70.
• Jesus did this for us on the cross the day of His death.
• They have “the coming of the Lord” arriving in AD70.
• Yes. He came in wrath. This is not to be confused with His second coming for the Saints and the end of time.
• They have “the resurrection” of the just and the unjust happening in AD70.
• This is hyper full Preterism.
• They have “the judgment” of the just and the unjust happening in AD70.
• This is hyper full Preterism.
• They have the old corrupt heavens and earth being replaced in AD70.
• This is hyper full Preterism
• They have “the new heavens and new earth” appearing in AD70.
• This is hyper full Preterism.

You're really failing to understand partial preterist don't all view these things the way you describe. That's all I'll say on that. Many of the things you cite above are views of full preterism.

Looking at your list here:

That is the view of full preterism. The exceptions would be:

- The old covenant ended when Jesus instituted the new covenant. Jesus had the apostles preach the gospel preach in Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. Remember what He told the apostles in Matthew 10:23.

- I think *most* partial presterist do believe the "end of the age" was 70AD. It ended the Jewish age...or better stated it ended God's covenant with Israel, which is the old covenant.

- Jesus "coming" in 70AD was a "coming" in judgement of Jerusalem/Israel. There remains final judgement

 

[mkgal1]

Because a lot of your views or even identified by Partial Preterist here as being Full Preterist.

They aren't Full Preterist beliefs - because FP do not believe there is ANYTHING left to be fulfilled (ie there's NO future return in the FP view....and NO future resurrection in the FP view). As I posted earlier - idealists are closer to FP than my beliefs are.

 

[sovereigngrace]

They aren't Full Preterist beliefs - because FP do not believe there is ANYTHING left to be fulfilled (ie there's NO future return in the FP view....and NOT future resurrection in the FP view). As I posted earlier - idealists are closer to FP than my beliefs are.

Do you believe the future physical resurrection of the just and the unjust is a literal physical event or an ongoing spiritual experience?

Do you believe the second coming is a literal physical event or is it an ongoing spiritual experience?

As I posted earlier - idealists are closer to FP than my beliefs are.

That is just ridiculous, and you know it. It's just a smokescreen to conceal your Full Preterist beliefs.

 

[mkgal1]

Because 1 Peter 3:15 instructs us: "be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope."

My hope is in what He has fulfilled - and that He kept His promises. I don't look to the future unfulfilled promise for my hope. I believe we experience - right now - eternal life and will forever be in His presence.....and that He will never leave nor forsake us. I believe that He's shown us that He is God and that there is no other god. I believe that He has compassion and has vindicated His servants - all the way back to Abel - as it's recorded that Abel's blood cried out to Him from the ground. I believe He sits on the throne forever:

Genesis 4:10 ~ "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground.​

 

[mkgal1]

That is just ridiculous, and you know it. It's just a smokescreen to conceal your Full Preterist beliefs.

Show me some support of your assertion, because I've yet to find any. Plenty of article I've found - along with the forum's SOP - states that idealism is about spiritualizing the Bible message and that it's not literal, just symbolism in meaning. That would be closer to the FP interpretation of the resurrection. I wouldn't state that if it were knowingly "ridiculous".