Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism

[keras]

That is because it is a figurative period relating to the here-and-now which cannot be literally specified, because only the Father knows the day of Christ's return. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture totally negates Premillennialism. The doctrine totally lacks corroboration.

Actually the Day that we cannot know, is the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. The sudden and unexpected Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Paul refers to it in 1 Thess 5:3

So anyone with a Bible will be able to know the Day of the Return, that day being exactly 1260 days after the Temple is desecrated.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Yes.

A rude accusation.

The; Time, times and half a time - 3 1/2 years - 42 months and 1260 days of the period of Satans rule of the world is mentioned about 10 times in the Bible.
Your denial of it is incomprehensible. But understandable as coming from one who denies the future Millennium, when Jesus will literally and physically reign as King of the world.

Where in Revelation 20 does it show Jesus literally and physically reigning as King on the earth?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Your posts have revealed all sorts of presumptions (and other things as well) - so you're welcome to translate and read into things whatever you choose. I'm certain nothing I post will change your view anyway. You can believe I'm a "full preterist pretending to be a partial preterist" all you wish.

As per the forum rules and SOP - this is partial preterism (of which I believe):

Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.​

Paul the apostle tells the largely Gentile church in Ephesians 1:13-14 and Ephesians 4:30 that the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Could you please tell me in what way you believe the coming of Titus in AD70 could possibly accomplish that for us? Surely this is talking about Christ's climactic return to redeem our bodies through glorification?

 

[Messenger 3k]

Where in Revelation 20 does it show Jesus literally and physically reigning as King on the earth?

Verse 4.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Verse 4.

That is a heavenly scene. It is a picture of the disembodied spirits reigning now with Christ.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Where is earth mentioned here? Where is earthly Jerusalem?

If the thrones are anywhere they must be in heaven, in keeping with the other thrones mentioned in Revelation; the exception being the thrones of Satan and the beast.

 

[Messenger 3k]

That is a heavenly scene. It is a picture of the disembodied spirits reigning now with Christ.

So...from where do these disembodied spirits reign with Christ if not from earth?

From heaven?

Just being sure.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So...from where do these disembodied spirits reign with Christ if not from earth?

From heaven?

Good question!

Yes. I believe this is talking about the intermediate state currently.

The question is: is there other similar Scripture in Revelation that indicates that the dead in Christ maintain their favored position after death and until the resurrection of their bodies?

Revelation 5, which is evidently located before the Second Advent, describes the same kingly/priestly reign of the redeemed in heaven. Revelation 5:5-10 says, “And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (aorist active indicative) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made (aorist active indicative) us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”

Are the "redeemed" here in heaven or on earth?

Are they in a physical or spiritual state?

Does this verse relate to before or after Christ's Coming?

In the state they are in and when it is located, are they "kings and priests”?

There is little doubt this scene is current and relates to a time-period preceding the Second Coming of the Lord. Moreover, no sensible Bible student would surely deny that the reading relates to anything other than the redeemed situated in heaven. Here, the disembodied spirits of the elect in heaven are seen reigning as kings and priests now. Significantly, and like Revelation 20:4, the dead in Christ in heaven are described (in relation to their kingship and priesthood) as “hast made” – proving this is speaking of the current fulfilment of the same. The aorist active indicative demonstrates that this is ongoing in this intra-Advent period.

Revelation 5:10 is speaking of the regenerated earth that occurs at the Second Advent. The old one is burnt up along with the wicked. Every last vestige of the fall is finally eliminated. This current earth will thus be regenerated, purified and re-populated by the eternal saints. It will be restored to the state it was before the fall, it will be sin-free, goat-free, death free. Rev 5 actually parallels Revelation 20; it shows the saints reigning now in heaven waiting for Christ's climactic Coming.

 

[Messenger 3k]

Rev 5 actually parallels Revelation 20; it shows the saints reigning now in heaven waiting for Christ's climactic Coming.

Forgive me. I'm not as skilled and eloquent with voluminous words as you are.

So your understanding is, we are currently living in Christ's reign over earth. But the saints He reigns with are in heaven with Him at the moment?

If yes, then where are we in this picture?

 

[DavidPT]

Forgive me. I'm not as skilled and eloquent with voluminous words as you are.

So your understanding is, we are currently living in Christ's reign over earth. But the saints He reigns with are in heaven with Him at the moment?

If yes, then where are we in this picture?

If one looks at the texts involved, none of these things could possibly be taking place in heaven.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.


This very first verse shows that location is not heaven, the fact the text indicates an angel comes down from heaven. Down from heaven to where? How can it not be the earth? Which then tells us that's because that is where satan is at the time, the earth. This also tells us that it is meaning after satan has been cast out unto the earth per Revelation 12. So at we at least know from Revelation 12, that when satan gets bound a thousand years here in Revelation 20, it has to be meaning after the fulfillment of Revelation 12:17, where that is referring to the 42 month reign of the beast, Revelation 13.


We know satan isn't bound once he is initially cast to the earth in Revelation 12, the fact it shows satan persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. He can't be bound in the pit if he is doing things like that. Before he is kicked out of heaven he obviously still had access to heaven. The only place his binding fits is after he is cast out unto the earth. And since it can't be when he is initially cast to the earth, like I already showed, the only other place his binding can possibly fit, is after the fulfillment of Revelation 12:17, where that is referring to the 42 month reign of the beast, Revelation 13. And that equals Premil. No way can it equal Amil.

Everything I just submitted proves satan is bound a thousand years after the 2nd coming, and not thousands of years ago like Amils claim. I challenge any Amil to show with Revelation 12, where the thousand year binding of satan fits if not after Revelation 12:17. Let's see if any of them can actually prove the position they assert, or let's see whether they just avoid this challenge altogether, like is typically the case.

 

[Messenger 3k]

If one looks at the texts involved, none of these things could possibly be taking place in heaven.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.


This very first verse shows that location is not heaven, the fact the text indicates an angel comes down from heaven. Down from heaven to where? How can it not be the earth? Which then tells us that's because that is where satan is at the time, the earth. This also tells us that it is meaning after satan has been cast out unto the earth per Revelation 12. So at we at least know from Revelation 12, that when satan gets bound a thousand years here in Revelation 20, it has to be meaning after the fulfillment of Revelation 12:17, where that is referring to the 42 month reign of the beast, Revelation 13.


We know satan isn't bound once he is initially cast to the earth in Revelation 12, the fact it shows satan persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. He can't be bound in the pit if he is doing things like that. Before he is kicked out of heaven he obviously still had access to heaven. The only place his binding fits is after he is cast out unto the earth. And since it can't be when he is initially cast to the earth, like I already showed, the only other place his binding can possibly fit, is after the fulfillment of Revelation 12:17, where that is referring to the 42 month reign of the beast, Revelation 13. And that equals Premil. No way can it equal Amil.

Everything I just submitted proves satan is bound a thousand years after the 2nd coming, and not thousands of years ago like Amils claim. I challenge any Amil to show with Revelation 12, where the thousand year binding of satan fits if not after Revelation 12:17. Let's see if any of them can actually prove the position they assert, or let's see whether they just avoid this challenge altogether, like is typically the case.

Lol.

I'm still expecting a response.

 

[DavidPT]

Lol.

I'm still expecting a response.

Yes I realize that. I already basically know what the response is going to be. So I already debunked the response from the get go, and that is, that Amil is not even Biblical to begin with. And that Revelation 12 along with Revelation 20 prove it.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Forgive me. I'm not as skilled and eloquent with voluminous words as you are.

So your understanding is, we are currently living in Christ's reign over earth. But the saints He reigns with are in heaven with Him at the moment?

If yes, then where are we in this picture?

I think you are a very able communicator.

Being "in Christ," we reign now with Christ on earth since the first resurrection of Christ. We reign in life and in death. We reign because He reigns.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Yes, I do agree that Jude 14 is talking about the second coming. But I do not relate it to Zechariah 14. If my own testimony is of any interest to you, when I abandon Premillennialism in 2000, Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 were the final two chapters to fall before I changed. I tried to correlate the two of them the best I could, but I could see no similarity. So, I've been asking the question for 20 years now, and I have yet to get a Premillennialist that can answer it. I can only come to one conclusion, they see what I see. There is no connection whatsoever.

Zechariah 14 is a very difficult passage to understand. We do know that the old covenant prophets were looking forward through a glazed class to a new arrangement that they couldn't fully comprehend. They did not have the full revelation we have.

Zechariah was outlining some pivotal approaching events that would change the religious landscape forever. Of course, it was concentrated on the cross-work. But it also spoke about AD70. What you ask about, I believe, relates to Christ's ministry and rejection by the many and His reception by the few. I believe Zechariah was looking forward at times to the First Advent and at other times to AD70.

Zechariah 14:5 predicts, “ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.”

Here, I believe, we see a reference to the earthly ministry of Christ and particularly His final betrayal. In Mark 14 we see an account of the arrest of Christ for crucifixion. Even those nearest and dearest to Him could not stand with Him at this dark hour. Verse 50 tells us: “And they all forsook him, and fled.”

Zechariah had previously alluded to this same thing in Zechariah 13:6-7, “And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.”

Matthew 26:31 says, “Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written (in Zechariah 13:7), I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.”

Only a few remained faithful. He then returned to minister unto them for 40 days after His resurrection. After equipping them, they took the Gospel out to the nations.

While Calvary was the apex of the OT exprectation, AD70 was the awful result for the Jews.

During Christ’s earthly ministry He declared of Jerusalem, “Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us” (Luke 23:28-30).

Paul the Apostle outlines this fact, when speaking of the Jews and the impending wrath of God on the nation of Israel, in 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, “For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.”

Hi you cannot reconcile Zech 14 and Rev 20 that is easy if you believe Zech 14 is the 2nd coming and Satan is bound for the 1000 years and afterwards loosed for one last temptation 1000 years later exactly as the text says.

Reconciling all passages is what I have been trying to get you to look at.

the future view reconciles
Jer 31 and keeps all salvation that ever from Adam to the last man under the new covenant.
It makes the verses about Israel not ceasing to be a nation and God not casting them off for all they have done make sense.
The verses in chapter 31 about the city being be rebuilt and holy when there are dead bodies all around and then never to be thrown down again also make sense since Zech 14 has the city being overrun when the LORD kills those invader and it will need to be rebuilt

It reconciles the fact that Zech 14 is speaking of a single day since it is dark at day a light and night and the Mt of Olives splitting in two forming a river that goes east which will heal the dead sea. In this passage it reconciles the verse I showed that when the throne of the LORD is established God keeps the covenant to Abraham and they Israel inherits the land. Rev God seals 144,000 Jews and Ezekiel 47 it says thus sayeth the LORD when the specific boundaries are given per each tribe when these rivers are flowing.

It reconciles Isaiah 62 giving a context for the acceptable year of the LORD and the great things accomplished in Zion in the day of vengeance of our God

It reconciles Ezekiel 36 to those brought back from all the nations to the mountains of Israel who came form all the nations who profaned the name of the LORD (Jesus ) in all the nations where they were scattered. It makes sense that this is when they get the new heart with Gods laws written in them at this time.

It fulfills the promise of Jesus to sit on Davids throne and to deliver Israel from their enemies that they would be holy and worship and serve the LORD without fear all their days from this point onward the future view has Jesus doing exactly that. When the new Jeruslalem comes then spiritual Israel all of the saved inherit it.

It reconciles Jesus statement to Israel that you will see him no more until you say blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD and the statement of Jesus that if another comes in HIs own name Him you will receive. It reconciles the question the disciples asked will you at this time restore the kingdom and Jesus answer about the kingdom that “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

It reconciles the stone cut without hands destroying mans kingdoms and a righteous holy kingdom is established with those reigning on earth with jesus both those in Rev 5 singing about their redemption and that they also would reign with him on the earth and also those beheaded during the tribulation who also are said to reign with jesus upon the earth. It gives clarity to the 1st prophecy in the Bible that the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent. It shows the beast and false prophet being throw into the fire while Satan is only bound and to be released later which correlates to Daniel 7 the pompous one who has a time times and half a time to persecute and he too is given to the flame and the other beast have their lives prolonged for a season and a time. It is the same thing. This raises the righteousness that Jesus brings when He is king and then they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks and shall learn war no more.

It makes sense of the temptation of Jesus when Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world at a time saying they were his and he could give them to whomever he wished. What Satan's head is crushed the world will no longer sway under the wicked one. It makes the nations which are left after the tribulation must come to keep the feast of tabernacles or they will get no rain.

It makes sense that the 3rd temple which is now being prepared for will be the stage for the lying signs and wonders of the man of sin. In Rev 13 the beast is given the power by the dragon and he causes all to worship the dragon. That is openly calling for Lucifer or Satan to be worshiped. 2 Thess says the man of sin will perform lying signs and wonders that the elect could be fooled if possible and notes that they will believe the lie. This lie is what secret societies like the Mason's already teach that Lucifer is the light bearer.

This may seem like a long answer but believe me I could reconcile hundreds more passages and they all are congruent.

 

[Messenger 3k]

I think you are a very able communicator.

Thank you.

Being "in Christ," we reign now with Christ on earth since the first resurrection of Christ. We reign in life and in death. We reign because He reigns.

Wrong.

Christ is not reigning over earth at the moment. Neither are we.

The devil is currently reigning over earth, ever since he stole it from Adam.

Paul, after Christ's resurrection says in 2 Corinthians 4:4,

Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe...(NLT)

However, the earth belongs to us as an inheritance due to the work of Christ on the cross.

You'll have to try again.

 

[mkgal1]

Paul the apostle tells the largely Gentile church in Ephesians 1:13-14 and Ephesians 4:30 that the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Could you please tell me in what way you believe the coming of Titus in AD70 could possibly accomplish that for us? Surely this is talking about Christ's climactic return to redeem our bodies through glorification?

It's not a question as to what the Jewish Revolts and total destruction of ancient Jerusalem and the whole temple system accomplishes for US....it's what it meant for the ancient Jews and the early church. It's a question as to how the generation that lived as contempories of Jesus - at His first Advent - experienced His salvation and vengeance. Salvation, wrath, and the end of the age (the Old Covenant age) are all tied together in the Bible (the way I see it - as is the partial preterist view).

 

[mkgal1]

This promise recorded in Deuteronomy 32:43 (and repeated by Jesus in Matthew 23:13-36) had yet to be fulfilled after the cross (but was fulfilled, in the preterist theology, in 70 AD)

Deuteronomy 32:29 -43
v. 43- Rejoice, O nations, with His people; For He will avenge the blood of His servants, And will render vengeance on His adversaries, And will atone for His land and His people."​

Matthew 23:35 -36 - So that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. “Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."​

 

[DavidPT]

It's not a question as to what the Jewish Revolts and total destruction of ancient Jerusalem and the whole temple system accomplishes for US....it's what it meant for the ancient Jews and the early church. It's a question as to how the generation that lived as contempories of Jesus - at His first Advent - experienced His salvation and vengeance. Salvation, wrath, and the end of the age (the Old Covenant age) are all tied together in the Bible (the way I see it - as is the partial preterist view).

I'm apparently partial preterist to some degree, and I don't see any of it like that.

 

[David Kent]

A rude accusation.

The; Time, times and half a time - 3 1/2 years - 42 months and 1260 days of the period of Satans rule of the world is mentioned about 10 times in the Bible.
Your denial of it is incomprehensible. But understandable as coming from one who denies the future Millennium, when Jesus will literally and physically reign as King of the world.[/QUOTE]

people, at the mid point of the seven years, is seen in Zechariah 14:1-2 and Revelation 13:5-7
[/QUOTE]
The 1260 days are figurative and refer o the papal antichrists rule.

 

[David Kent]

Actually the Day that we cannot know, is the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. The sudden and unexpected Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Paul refers to it in 1 Thess 5:3

So anyone with a Bible will be able to know the Day of the Return, that day being exactly 1260 days after the Temple is desecrated.

False

 

[mkgal1]

I'm apparently partial preterist to some degree, and I don't see any of it like that.

All Christians are partial preterists - it's a matter of degrees (as you said). There're plenty of areas of disagreement since preterism runs the expanse of Christianity.