Why can't Calvinism and Arminianism both be true?

[PrettyboyAndy]

Yet only those drawn end up believing.
Yet God commands all men to repent and believe the Gospel.
Yet no one does good, there are none good, It would be good thing to believe in Christ.
The only reason anyone believes are because they are Christ's sheep.

John 10, they are His sheep before they hear Him.
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

I am a calvinist, but I believe both are true. Great verse

 

[RDKirk]

John Macarthur has a great message:

Twin Truths: God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Responsibility

It explains that both God is soverign in election, and man is also responsible. To me it seems both Calvinism and Arminianism are true.

Why can they both not be true?

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/43-15/twin-truths-gods-sovereignty-and-mans-responsibility

They can't both be completely true, but they can both be a little bit true and mostly wrong.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

God Regenerates, Gives Faith, Individual Repents and Believes, Receives Holy Spirit and is Saved and is Sealed

Individual grieves over his Sin, Cries out to God, Repents, Believes, Gets Saved, Receives the Holy Spirit and is Sealed

I don't see much differences

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

They can't both be completely true, but they can both be a little bit true and mostly wrong.

Yes great post!

 

[sdowney717]

God Regenerates, Gives Faith, Individual Repents and Believes, Receives Holy Spirit and is Saved and is Sealed

Individual grieves over his Sin, Cries out to God, Repents, Believes, Gets Saved, Receives the Holy Spirit and is Sealed

I don't see much differences

In Calvanism, the idea is God regenerates, makes them born of God first so they can believe and confess Christ.
In Arminianism, God grants a prevenient grace where they are not blinded by Satan or God to all so they can make a clear headed choice.

However, there is no prevenient grace, those who are not believers, have no hope and without God in the world. It is of Him we are in Christ, not of ourselves.

Ephesians 2 shows that exists no prevenient grace.
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

2 Corinthians 4 shows there is no prevenient grace. v3-4 are about the spiritually dead, v6 about those God has given everlasting life, saved.
2 Corinthians 4New King James Version (NKJV)
The Light of Christ’s Gospel
1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit, and I take that very literally as true. We do not believe say and confess Jesus as the Christ unless we are born of God beforehand.

 

[sdowney717]

1 John 5New King James Version (NKJV)
1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

The ESV is more clear

1 John 5English Standard Version (ESV)

Overcoming the World
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

So it is true that, everyone who believes is of course born of God, (past tense), because they have been born of God, so then called according to His purposes, and that purpose is to conform you to the image of Christ. Read Romans 8.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

In Calvanism, the idea is God regenerates, makes them born of God first so they can believe and confess Christ.
In Arminianism, God grants a prevenient grace where they are not blinded by Satan or God to all so they can make a clear headed choice.

However, there is no prevenient grace, those who are not believers, have no hope and without God in the world. It is of Him we are in Christ, not of ourselves.

Ephesians 2 shows that exists no prevenient grace.
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

2 Corinthians 4 shows there is no prevenient grace. v3-4 are about the spiritually dead, v6 about those God has given everlasting life, saved.
2 Corinthians 4New King James Version (NKJV)
The Light of Christ’s Gospel
1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit, and I take that very literally as true. We do not believe say and confess Jesus as the Christ unless we are born of God beforehand.

I agree with this, but I also see a open invitation to all and anyone who believe.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Can any Arminian explain how a unregenerated believer can believe in Christ?Without having the Holy Spirit?

 

[sdowney717]

I agree with this, but I also see a open invitation to all and anyone who believe.

Yes it is an open invitation.
Whosoever believes will be saved.
Jesus says you must be granted by God to come to Him. He tells His disciples that is why many disciples departed from Him.

John 6

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)

65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

I agree with this, but I also see a open invitation to all and anyone who believe.

Those who don't agree with the DoG, think we don't believe in an open invitation. The general call through the proclamation of the gospel is an open invitation to all who hear with their natural ears to be reconciled with God. God is not holding ppl back from coming to Him, as if He has His palm on their head pushing them away. They, in their unregenerate state, won't come. Nothing is holding them back but themselves and their wicked hearts.

Once God has quickened them, given them a new heart and Spirit(Ezekiel 11:19 & 36:26), gives them the gifts of faith and repentence(Ephesians 2:8,9, Romans 12:3, Hebrews 12:2, John 1:13, Romans 9:16, John 3:3 &3:8), they will come to Him. This is called the effectual call.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

In any invitation in the bible, there is a caveat...

"Those who are weary and heavy laden..."Matthew 11:28
"Let them who are thirsty come and drink..."Revelation 22:17
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness..."Matthew 5:6

Theses verses are just for starters...

 

[sdowney717]

John 17English Standard Version (ESV)
The High Priestly Prayer

1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

Christ only gives eternal life to those God has granted to know Christ and God, that would be all those God has given to Christ.

The only way scripture makes sense is He has foreknown them in love as His children beforehand, before they were born.

And it is up to Christ's will to reveal themselves to people so that they know God and are saved.
God has hidden who Christ is from the wise of this world and revealed him to the babes of this world.

Luke 10
Jesus Rejoices in the Father's Will
21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

22 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

 

[twin1954]

Can you elaborate what you mean by Arminianism worship a different God?

Yes I can but I won't. PM me if you are actually interested and aren't inclined to debate.

 

[sdowney717]

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/gleason.html
A good read showing the anti-christ, anti-scriptural teaching of prevenient grace of the Arminians.

Mark 4:10-12English Standard Version (ESV)
The Purpose of the Parables
Mark 4:10-12English Standard Version (ESV)

The Purpose of the Parables
10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that

“‘they may indeed see but not perceive,
and may indeed hear but not understand,
lest they should turn and be forgiven.’”

 

[twin1954]

I agree with you, but look at these verses:

Isaiah 10

5 “Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger,
in whose hand is the club of my wrath!
6 I send him against a godless nation,
I dispatch him against a people who anger me,
to seize loot and snatch plunder,(God's Sovereignty)
and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
7 But this is not what he intends,
this is not what he has in mind;
his purpose is to destroy, (Man's responsibility)

God purposed and sent Assyria to be his weapon and attack Isreal, then he holds them fully accountable even though v.7 this is not what they intended to do or had in mind.

So as Dr. Macarthur explains, they are both paralleled truths, and clearly seen throughout all scripture.

Anyone who believes shall be saved, and at the same time no one can come to me unless the father draws him.

MacArthur is only trying to compromise in order to appease some of his followers. They are not parallel truths but actually opposites. Spurgeon tried to use the same compromise.

Thee is an open invitation to all who hear to believe and rest in Christ alone but that only makes man even more deserving of the wrath of God.

(1Jn 5:10) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

The preaching of the Gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe, always accomplishes two things in those who hear it: it breaks the heart by the power of the Spirit and brings the sinner to the feet of Christ begging mercy or it hardens the heart of the sinner. I think it was one of the Puritans who said that the same sun which melts the ice hardens the clay.

An open invitation in no way intimates that man is able to believe apart from being born of God, 1John 5:1. If the open invitation, which is actually a command not an invitation, were a proof of man's responsibility then all those who have never heard the Gospel would not be responsible for their unbelief. But of course they are as we find clearly taught in Rom. 1. No man is excused because of what he doesn't have access to but is responsible for what he is given.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Arminianism is not based on man's works.

I note the post to which you reply does not specify which faction of that particular divide is based on works. Your reply implies a defense, which in turn implies a defensive spirit on the subject. I find that curious.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

To me it seems both Calvinism and Arminianism are true.

Why can they both not be true?

They cannot both be true AS CURRENTLY PREACHED. The two have mutually exclusive teachings - the possibility of losing one's salvation, for instance. The Calvinist view is one cannot lose one's salvation, the Arminian view is one can.

I tend to think they both miss something in their argument.

 

[twin1954]

They cannot both be true AS CURRENTLY PREACHED. The two have mutually exclusive teachings - the possibility of losing one's salvation, for instance. The Calvinist view is one cannot lose one's salvation, the Arminian view is one can.

I tend to think they both miss something in their argument.

Could you possibly elaborate on what you think the Calvinist is missing?

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Could you possibly elaborate on what you think the Calvinist is missing?

Since you ask...

Just for clarification, I think both groups are missing the same something.

That 'something' is the relationship between time on Earth (which includes this Universe and all of human existence) and The Creator Himself. God is NOT confined by time. Not in the same sense humans are. (Not at all, as far as I can see.) When the Bible speaks of God relating to humans 'before they were born" (such as Jeremiah 1:5, Romans 9:11 , it also implies due to God's being, 'after they are dead'. Or, in a larger view, God sees all of 'time' before it all happened AND after it all happened at the same instant, from His vantage point.

So the 'focus' of the difference being on 'predestination' (as in before anything happened) is removed. The objection of 'no free will' is removed. Only 'grace' is left.

Yes, I know, the term 'predestination' (in some form or tense) is used, but I think only as a means to communicate with humanity in a relatively unsophisticated state of mind about such things. The Bible also speaks of God existing from everlasting to everlasting, and being an everlasting God. (Too many to cite here.) Also, both Second Peter and Psalm 90 speak of the 'timelessness' of God (a day is like a thousand years and vice versa).

However, both John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius lived in a era when 'time' was poorly understood and most assumed without deliberation God was subject to 'time' just as humanity; so I can't really be too hard on them.

Here's one objection to my line of thinking: Both sides - at least the really hard nosed ones - are now so entrenched they are unwilling to admit anything which will indicate they are even marginally in error. No doubt you've noted this attitude in any number of 'issues' in Christianity and I will not enumerate further.

 

[twin1954]

Since you ask...

Just for clarification, I think both groups are missing the same something.

That 'something' is the relationship between time on Earth (which includes this Universe and all of human existence) and The Creator Himself. God is NOT confined by time. Not in the same sense humans are. (Not at all, as far as I can see.) When the Bible speaks of God relating to humans 'before they were born" (such as Jeremiah 1:5, Romans 9:11 , it also implies due to God's being, 'after they are dead'. Or, in a larger view, God sees all of 'time' before it all happened AND after it all happened at the same instant, from His vantage point.

So the 'focus' of the difference being on 'predestination' (as in before anything happened) is removed. The objection of 'no free will' is removed. Only 'grace' is left.

Yes, I know, the term 'predestination' (in some form or tense) is used, but I think only as a means to communicate with humanity in a relatively unsophisticated state of mind about such things. The Bible also speaks of God existing from everlasting to everlasting, and being an everlasting God. (Too many to cite here.) Also, both Second Peter and Psalm 90 speak of the 'timelessness' of God (a day is like a thousand years and vice versa).

However, both John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius lived in a era when 'time' was poorly understood and most assumed without deliberation God was subject to 'time' just as humanity; so I can't really be too hard on them.

Here's one objection to my line of thinking: Both sides - at least the really hard nosed ones - are now so entrenched they are unwilling to admit anything which will indicate they are even marginally in error. No doubt you've noted this attitude in any number of 'issues' in Christianity and I will not enumerate further.

Would you mind if I ask a few questions of your premises just for discussion's sake? If you would rather that I didn't just let me know and I will abide by your desire.

But I do think an honest discussion would benefit those who read.