Why can't Calvinism and Arminianism both be true?

[PrettyboyAndy]

John Macarthur has a great message:

Twin Truths: God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Responsibility

It explains that both God is soverign in election, and man is also responsible. To me it seems both Calvinism and Arminianism are true.

Why can they both not be true?

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/43-15/twin-truths-gods-sovereignty-and-mans-responsibility

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Because their premise for salvation cancels one another out.

 

[DeaconDean]

Why can't Calvinism and Arminianism both be true?

When one reads the theology behind each one, one finds out that one is a man-based (works) salvation, and the other is by grace.

Grace and works are not compatible.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hank77]

Why can't Calvinism and Arminianism both be true?

When one reads the theology behind each one, one finds out that one is a man-based (works) salvation, and the other is by grace.

Grace and works are not compatible.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Arminianism is not based on man's works.

 

[DeaconDean]

Arminianism is not based on man's works.

Prove it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hank77]

Prove it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I didn't have anyone study and lay out Calvinism for me. You will have to do your own study.
God Bless

 

[DeaconDean]

I didn't have anyone study and lay out Calvinism for me. You will have to do your own study.
God Bless

I am a Calvinist.

But I was quoting you when you said:

Arminianism is not based on man's works.

This isn't about Calvinism, its about your statement.

Prove that Arminianism isn't about what man does.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Why can't Calvinism and Arminianism both be true?

When one reads the theology behind each one, one finds out that one is a man-based (works) salvation, and the other is by grace.

Grace and works are not compatible.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Arminianism is not based on man's works.

Wanna bet?

In Arminianism(in reality, there is no more Arminianism as the vast majority call themselves non-Calvinists, which, in reality, is at best Semi-Pelagianism and at worst full-blown Pelagianism)...whew!!...getting back to Arminianism...in Arminianism, ppl have a line drawn in the sand that God will not cross, because if He did cross it, He has violated their free will. If God will not step over that line and just sits back, then that means ppl have to do their part, too. So, that leaves God to do His part and call(but in His calling, the drawing in John 6:44 is to literally drag off, the same word 'draw' was used when Peter drew his sword to cut an ear off, btw), but in His calling, He can only call, and they in turn have to respond, and if they fail to do this, He can not save them.

God only goes so far in Arminianism, and leaves the rest up to the populace.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Did anyone listen to Dr. John Macarthurs message? I posted

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Isaiah 10

5 “Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger,
in whose hand is the club of my wrath!
6 I send him against a godless nation,
I dispatch him against a people who anger me,
to seize loot and snatch plunder,(God's Sovereignty)
and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
7 But this is not what he intends,
this is not what he has in mind;
his purpose is to destroy, (Man's responsibility)


John 6:35-48

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. (Open Invitation/Mans Responsibility)

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (God's Sovereignty)

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. (God's Sovereignty)

47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. (Open Invitation/Mans Responsibility)


After Romans 9, the great chapter on God's Sovereignty in election, Romans Chapter 10 says:

11 Everyone who believes in him shall not be put to shame. (Open Invitation/Mans Responsibility)
13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Open Invitation/Mans Responsibility)

 

[DeaconDean]

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. (Open Invitation/Mans Responsibility)

47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. (Open Invitation/Mans Responsibility)

Your right, Open Invitation.

However:

"ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." -Jn. 5:40 (KJV)

And:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." -Jn. 6:44 (KJV)

Kinda takes "mans responsibility" out of the equasion.

And lets not forget the work of the Holy Spirit in mans conversion:

"but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." -Jn. 16:7-11 (KJV)

Again, kinda takes man's responsibility out of the equasion.

I suggest reading: Regeneration and Conversion, Abstract of Systematic Theology, James P. Boyce, Chapter XXXII

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

The Cathedrals sang a song which includes a verse that puts this into perspective:

"How could I boast on anything
I've ever seen or done?
How could I dare to claim as mine
The victories God has won?

Where would I be
Had God not brought me
Gently to this place?
I'm here to say I'm nothing
But a sinner saved by grace

Sinner Saved By Grace Lyrics

Songwriters
HUMPHRIES, MITCH/GAITHER, WILLIAM/GAITHER, GLORIA

Published by
Lyrics © Sony/ATV Music Publishing LLC

Read more: Gaither Vocal Band - Sinner Saved By Grace Lyrics | MetroLyrics

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Job8]

Why can they both not be true?

Why are chalk and cheese different? Why can't oil and water mix? They cannot both be true at one and the same time.

 

[twin1954]

John Macarthur has a great message:

Twin Truths: God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Responsibility

It explains that both God is soverign in election, and man is also responsible. To me it seems both Calvinism and Arminianism are true.

Why can they both not be true?

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/43-15/twin-truths-gods-sovereignty-and-mans-responsibility

I have preached on God's sovereignty and man's responsibility several times.

The false idea that man's responsibility comes from his ability is natural to man. Man is responsible for his disobedience not because he has the ability to obey but because he is under the rule of God who created him. Man is responsible to do whatever God commands because God is God not because man is able to obey. Man's ability to obey is limited to his will and his will is to always disobey or obey for the wrong reasons. Man is by nature a sinner and has no ability to change himself into anything other than a sinner. Yet he is still responsible to do what God commands and must suffer the penalty for disobedience.

Moreover Adam had the ability to obey and yet plunged us all into sin and a sinful nature willingly. We are responsible not only for our own sin but are under the penalty of death because of Adam's sin.


Now to answer your question concerning both Arminianism and Calvinism being true.

It isn't a matter of both being true but one of who is the God they worship? In reality Arminians worship a different god than do Calvinists. No one wants to admit that fact but it is still true and we all know it.

 

[sdowney717]

John Macarthur has a great message:

Twin Truths: God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Responsibility

It explains that both God is soverign in election, and man is also responsible. To me it seems both Calvinism and Arminianism are true.

Why can they both not be true?

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/43-15/twin-truths-gods-sovereignty-and-mans-responsibility

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Does God fail?
Calvinism says no, Arminianism says yes.

 

[shioks]

Can you elaborate what you mean by Arminianism worship a different God?

I have preached on God's sovereignty and man's responsibility several times.

The false idea that man's responsibility comes from his ability is natural to man. Man is responsible for his disobedience not because he has the ability to obey but because he is under the rule of God who created him. Man is responsible to do whatever God commands because God is God not because man is able to obey. Man's ability to obey is limited to his will and his will is to always disobey or obey for the wrong reasons. Man is by nature a sinner and has no ability to change himself into anything other than a sinner. Yet he is still responsible to do what God commands and must suffer the penalty for disobedience.

Moreover Adam had the ability to obey and yet plunged us all into sin and a sinful nature willingly. We are responsible not only for our own sin but are under the penalty of death because of Adam's sin.


Now to answer your question concerning both Arminianism and Calvinism being true.

It isn't a matter of both being true but one of who is the God they worship? In reality Arminians worship a different god than do Calvinists. No one wants to admit that fact but it is still true and we all know it.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Your right, Open Invitation.

However:

"ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." -Jn. 5:40 (KJV)

And:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." -Jn. 6:44 (KJV)

Kinda takes "mans responsibility" out of the equasion.

And lets not forget the work of the Holy Spirit in mans conversion:

"but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." -Jn. 16:7-11 (KJV)

Again, kinda takes man's responsibility out of the equasion.

I suggest reading: Regeneration and Conversion, Abstract of Systematic Theology, James P. Boyce, Chapter XXXII

God Bless

Till all are one.

I agree with you, but look at these verses:

Isaiah 10

5 “Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger,
in whose hand is the club of my wrath!
6 I send him against a godless nation,
I dispatch him against a people who anger me,
to seize loot and snatch plunder,(God's Sovereignty)
and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
7 But this is not what he intends,
this is not what he has in mind;
his purpose is to destroy, (Man's responsibility)

God purposed and sent Assyria to be his weapon and attack Isreal, then he holds them fully accountable even though v.7 this is not what they intended to do or had in mind.

So as Dr. Macarthur explains, they are both paralleled truths, and clearly seen throughout all scripture.

Anyone who believes shall be saved, and at the same time no one can come to me unless the father draws him.

 

[sdowney717]

I agree with you, but look at these verses:

Isaiah 10

5 “Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger,
in whose hand is the club of my wrath!
6 I send him against a godless nation,
I dispatch him against a people who anger me,
to seize loot and snatch plunder,(God's Sovereignty)
and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
7 But this is not what he intends,
this is not what he has in mind;
his purpose is to destroy, (Man's responsibility)

God purposed and sent Assyria to be his weapon and attack Isreal, then he holds them fully accountable even though v.7 this is not what they intended to do or had in mind.

So as Dr. Macarthur explains, they are both paralleled truths, and clearly seen throughout all scripture.

Anyone who believes shall be saved, and at the same time no one can come to me unless the father draws him.

Yet only those drawn end up believing.
Yet God commands all men to repent and believe the Gospel.
Yet no one does good, there are none good, It would be good thing to believe in Christ.
The only reason anyone believes are because they are Christ's sheep.

John 10, they are His sheep before they hear Him.
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

And if that is not enough evidence, read about His other sheep He has who have not yet heard His voice.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

I'm not trying to bash Arminianism, I am trying to see if both can be true, anyone can come to go, as scripture clearly states all over, and God is sovereign, which he is, both are true.

After Paul in Romans 9 says, Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated, he goes on in the next chapter to say:

Romans 10:
11 Everyone who believes in him shall not be put to shame. (Open Invitation/Mans Responsibility)
13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Open Invitation/Mans Responsibility)

Also is it possible Jacob was referring to Isreal, and Esau Edomites? Not the persons but the nations?