Why Baptism is Essential to Salvation

[manoffiji]

1 Peter 3:21 means that we are baptized through the resurrection of Jesus. That's what saves us, not the removal of filth from the flesh. Why don't you read it again?

Just curious. What is 'it' referring to when it says, "IT saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ..." It doesn't say through, it says by, by the way. And the 'it' is the second reference in that verse to what saves us. Thanks!

 

[ViaCrucis]

and you are wrong we read of many times men were filled with the Holy Spirit.

You are taking "filled with the Holy Spirit" to mean "Baptism with the Holy Spirit", why?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[manoffiji]

Ronald is exactly right! Peter plainly said, "the like figure" (symbol). Water baptism saves us by symbol. It is the physical symbol of our spiritual salvation.

The water is the symbol, not baptism. Please read the context and the actual verse. Noah's flood water saved Noah and his family, not the ark. He also misquoted the verse with 'through' not 'by'. Thanks!

 

[ViaCrucis]

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Neither on Pentecost or at Cornelius' house, where the Baptism with the Holy Spirit took place, did anyone lay hands on.

Why do you identify the laying on of hands and giving of the Spirit with the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

you may want to read 1 Cor 12-14

I'm quite familiar. The Apostle never mentions Baptism with the Holy Spirit in his discussion on spiritual gifts, the central importance of love, or in proper order during worship.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[manoffiji]

I don't see the "twice'" thingy.

You got it. "...and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also (there's one)" "It (it being baptism) saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (there's two). I pressed the underline button and now it won't stop

 

[LoveofTruth]

Neither on Pentecost or at Cornelius' house, where the Baptism with the Holy Spirit took place, did anyone lay hands on.

Why do you identify the laying on of hands and giving of the Spirit with the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

-CryptoLutheran

because the text says they received the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You are taking "filled with the Holy Spirit" to mean "Baptism with the Holy Spirit", why?

-CryptoLutheran

I believe they are the similar in the Holy Ghost ministry to believers.

we read

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

Speaking in tongues and prophecy and all the gifts in 1 Cor 12 are when a believer is filled with the Holy Ghost. Paul says they should desire such spiritual gifts. These gifts can only be given when a person is filled with the Holy Ghost.

"17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. (Acts 9:17 KJV)

and

"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."(Acts 19:1-6 KJV)

 

[manoffiji]

I'm thankful for all of you reaffirming my faith in the complete necessity to be baptized by water for my salvation. Thanks so much! I pray you come to the same conclusion. I think many of you are starting to miss the point with doctrine and complicated arguments that are making the waters hazy. Please ask yourself this: Would I do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING the Bible says to be forgiven of my sins and go to heaven to worship my creator? If the answer is yes, then you may be like me and want to do what the believers in Acts 2 did and got baptized in water for the forgiveness of sins. I know that it doesn't stop there and that Jesus poured out his blood for many to cover our sins. It seems that many of you are so vehemently against baptism or water baptism having anything to do with your salvation, and that makes me sad. Not surprised, but sad. With the love of the Lord I prayed and wrote that article and hope it will turn you that deny water baptism to the Lord. Many of my family who were raised in a denomination that was against baptism, when shown those verses, simply said, "Let's go do it!" They wanted to make sure they did everything they could to go to heaven. I pray the same for you. Thanks again and I'm really enjoying that you are all getting into the scripture!

 

[LoveofTruth]

Neither on Pentecost or at Cornelius' house, where the Baptism with the Holy Spirit took place, did anyone lay hands on.

Why do you identify the laying on of hands and giving of the Spirit with the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

-CryptoLutheran

the Holy Ghost baptism can come without laying on of hands and with laying on of hands.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I'm thankful for all of you reaffirming my faith in the complete necessity to be baptized by water for my salvation. Thanks so much! I pray you come to the same conclusion. I think many of you are starting to miss the point with doctrine and complicated arguments that are making the waters hazy. Please ask yourself this: Would I do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING the Bible says to be forgiven of my sins and go to heaven to worship my creator? If the answer is yes, then you may be like me and want to do what the believers in Acts 2 did and got baptized in water for the forgiveness of sins. I know that it doesn't stop there and that Jesus poured out his blood for many to cover our sins. It seems that many of you are so vehemently against baptism or water baptism having anything to do with your salvation, and that makes me sad. Not surprised, but sad. With the love of the Lord I prayed and wrote that article and hope it will turn you that deny water baptism to the Lord. Many of my family who were raised in a denomination that was against baptism, when shown those verses, simply said, "Let's go do it!" They wanted to make sure they did everything they could to go to heaven. I pray the same for you. Thanks again and I'm really enjoying that you are all getting into the scripture!

sadly you may be teaching another gospel read the actual saving gospel in 1 Cor 15;1-4 and consider.

if you say "lets go and do it", because they did something in Acts. Then you have to have animal sacrifices in the temple and keep the Mosaic law and customs as the believing Jews in Jesus did in Acts 21.

and it is not by works of righteousness that we have done.

for by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of yourself it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast

 

[LoveofTruth]

I'm thankful for all of you reaffirming my faith in the complete necessity to be baptized by water for my salvation.

I am not doing this in the slightest. Please clarify who you are speaking of when you say this.

I am withstanding your doctrine with scripture and seeking to help others be free frameworks of man for salvation and the bondage of diverse washings and canal ordinances to be free.

 

[FireDragon76]

It is on your part to prove that Paul was speaking of "water" baptism in Galatians 3:27. I believe he was not but instead speaking of being baptized ( immersed) into Christ and putting on Christ.

"26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."(Galatians 3:26,27 KJV)

Notice that they had to have faith in Jesus Christ. By Faith Christ dwells in our hearts "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith;..."(Eph 3:17 KJV) and we "And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"(Eph 4:24 KJV).

You are creating a conflict between faith and baptism that isn't how Lutherans would approach the issue. Of course we believe we are justified by faith alone, but our understanding of baptism does not contradict that.

To have this faith where Christ dwells in our hearts and we in him and where we put him on, is to be baptized INTO Christ, not into water. No amount of dunking under water can attain to this.

Of course not, but if water is joined to the Word, then it is not merely water which baptizes us. Water is merely the outward sign. Jesus commanded us to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28:19). It is not a human ordinance, but one given by God himself.

I believe when pPaul speaks of baptism he is speaking, not of water but of a spiritual life in Christ where all believers are baptized ( immersed) into the body of Christ by the Spirit, We read this here

That spiritual life is sacramentally sealed at baptism in water. However, we do not deny that those who have faith, but are not baptized, will be saved. We as Evangelicals do believe that faith alone justifies us. Those not baptized, however, lack the assurance and grace given in baptism, and we consider baptism normative and the ordinary means by which someone becomes a member of the body of Christ.

In our church all those baptized are anointed with oil and told "You are sealed with the Holy Spirit in baptism and marked Christ's own forever". We do not think of baptism as something that happens without the Holy Spirit's involvement.

 

[FireDragon76]

You are taking "filled with the Holy Spirit" to mean "Baptism with the Holy Spirit", why?

-CryptoLutheran

Absolutely, this is part of the problem. "Baptism of the Holy Spirit", as Pentecostals understand it, is open to other interpretations. Ones that do not contradict the catholic faith once delivered to the saints.

I consider myself a charismatic Lutheran. I've had similar spiritual experiences to what Pentecostals talk about. But I interpret them within Lutheran theology. I understand those experiences differently, being more guideposts along a journey than assurances of justification. I understand my baptism as a child as the beginning of my Christian life, when I was baptized into Christ and my parents made promises to raise me in the Christian faith (which they did).

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Neither of the passages you offered mention "Baptism with the Holy Spirit".

-CryptoLutheran

What do you call it when the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believers at the new birth? In 1 Cor 12:13 when one is baptized into the body of Christ, who does the verse say baptize the believers into the body of Christ? Jesus said He would send another Comforter to those saved, so how would that match what John the Baptist said, One coming after me will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost and filled the believers. This fulfilled what Jesus said, He would send the Comforter and the Comforter fills each believers with Himself and thus this is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We are only filled when we are completely under His power and obeying, only something fully filled, is filled, the cup runs over when full and overflowing would you agree. So example when scripture says that someone was filled with the Holy Spirit, He is in control and that is what happened when the writer penned the word of God, He had them write exactly what He wanted to say in the letters and gospels. Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. And only saved people are filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[manoffiji]

sadly you may be teaching another gospel read the actual saving gospel in 1 Cor 15;1-4 and consider.

if you say "lets go and do it", because they did something in Acts. Then you have to have animal sacrifices in the temple and keep the Mosaic law and customs as the believing Jews in Jesus did in Acts 21.

and it is not by works of righteousness that we have done.

for by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of yourself it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast

Thank you for helping me reaffirm my faith again with more study! If what you're saying Paul did with the Jewish leaders somehow disqualifies the command for us to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins, then you are REALLY grasping at straws. That's really silly sir. Thank you!

 

[manoffiji]

sadly you may be teaching another gospel read the actual saving gospel in 1 Cor 15;1-4 and consider.

if you say "lets go and do it", because they did something in Acts. Then you have to have animal sacrifices in the temple and keep the Mosaic law and customs as the believing Jews in Jesus did in Acts 21.

and it is not by works of righteousness that we have done.

for by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of yourself it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast

I had to write one more response to your post. You very dangerously said I was preaching a different gospel than you were and referenced 1 Cor 15:1-4. Please tell me is Acts 2:37-41, Romans 6:3-6, Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21-22, Galatians 3:26-27, Colossians 2:11-12, Titus 3:5, John 3:5, Matthew 3:13-17 and Hebrews not part of the same gospel you're reading? If not, please point out why these verses should not pertain to my eternal salvation. I certainly hope we're reading the same Bible and thus the same gospel. Maybe my NIV is leading me the wrong way Thanks again!

 

[manoffiji]

I had to write one more response to your post. You very dangerously said I was preaching a different gospel than you were and referenced 1 Cor 15:1-4. Please tell me is Acts 2:37-41, Romans 6:3-6, Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21-22, Galatians 3:26-27, Colossians 2:11-12, Titus 3:5, John 3:5, Matthew 3:13-17 and Hebrews not part of the same gospel you're reading? If not, please point out why these verses should not pertain to my eternal salvation. I certainly hope we're reading the same Bible and thus the same gospel. Maybe my NIV is leading me the wrong way Thanks again!

I meant to type Hebrews 10:22. Sorry about that.

 

[GingerBeer]

And remember I am a King Jame Bible Christian.

I am not a KJV only person. Didn't this thread start with a "no denomination's sunglasses" declaration? Now you're expecting to have KJV only and bible only fire-side discussions of collected verses that allegedly prove something if you line them up just right in the right light and with KJV only words?? Not something I am going to play along with - not a tune for me to dance to

 

[Ronald]

Just curious. What is 'it' referring to when it says, "IT saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ..." It doesn't say through, it says by, by the way. And the 'it' is the second reference in that verse to what saves us. Thanks!

I found "it" is two translations. It (water baptism) is symbolic to represent the spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit. We are baptized into His death and resurrection. The act of our obedience to get water baptized is a response, a pledge of a clear conscience towards God amongst others. Remember Jesus told the blind guy to dip himself in the pool seven times after he put dirt on his eyes. Jesus didn't need dirt or water to do the miracle, He wanted the man to demonstrate his faith and obedience.

Our believing in Jesus, that He died and rose on the third day, and asking God for forgiveness saves us.

New International Version
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation
And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

English Standard Version
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

New American Standard Bible
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

King James Bible
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

International Standard Version
Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also, not by removing dirt from the body, but by asking God for a clear conscience based on the resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah,

King James 2000 Bible
The like figure unto which even baptism does also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

American Standard Version
which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;