Why aren't you a muslim?

[JohnDeereFan]

Oh dear, you've certainly gone down in my estimations.

Better to go down in your estimation for believing God's word than to go down on Judgement Day for not believing it.

 

[314159]

It's a risk I'm willing to take.

What about my other points?:

Finally. Thank you for admitting it.

Erm, this is what I posted originally:

"Thousands of christians are motivated through their religion to kill people as well."

So, what's your point!?

and

The Bible cannot motivate Christians to kill because it teaches us the exact opposite of that.

Indeed it does, countless Christians manage to find ways round this though: execution, war etc. Indeed, some people may think they are doing the lord's work by killing abortion doctors.

 

[DanielRB]

Hi JohnDeereFan,

No, we're never instructed to "accept Christ". To the contrary, the Bible tells us that it is up to Christ to accept us (or not).

So if someone is not a Christian, then they are not because Christ has not accepted them?

At any rate, this is a separate issue from the subject at hand.

I'm talking about the killing combined with factors surrounding the killing.

No problem. Not sure why you didn't get it the first time I said it.

Ok...

Please forgive me, but I still don't know what your position on when killing is justified. Maybe I just missed the post--could you please tell me which post number in which you spell out the circumstances in which it is permissible to kill? You don't have to re-post it, just give me the post number.

And if anyone else in this thread can point me to the post, please do so. Thanks!

Daniel

 

[ke1985]

Correct, I am saying that the bible motivates some people to kill. This is different from saying the bible teaches people to kill, which seems to be what you are suggesting I am saying./quote]

Are you saying that the validity of the Bible is in question because some people may kill because of it?

 

[DanielRB]

Hi 314159,

I don't really think you have a strong point about Christians and violence, to be honest.

Yes, the Bible (as misunderstood) does "motivate" people to kill. So does an atheistic worldview (when misunderstood). One might say "hey, there's no heaven or hell, so let me do whatever I want, no matter who it hurts, because there are no moral absolutes!" (Atheism, per se really has no moral teachings, of course--though some atheistic systems do. But that doesn't keep people from trying to pull moral implications out of it.)

A perversion of atheism? Perhaps. But your argument simply seems to be that some people have perverted Christianity. Sure, but what's the point? I am certain you can look at any belief-system (whether religious or not) and see perversions of the original intent.

It's a trivial point to say that people can misunderstand things, pull passages from various works out of context and build entire systems that when examined are in direct opposition to the original teachings in that system.

Daniel

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Yes, the Bible (as misunderstood) does "motivate" people to kill.

The Bible does not motivate anyone to kill. Deluded people may use the Bible as their excuse for killing, but it is their delusion, not the Bible, that motivated their killing.

 

[DanielRB]

Hi JohnDeereFan,

The Bible does not motivate anyone to kill. Deluded people may use the Bible as their excuse for killing, but it is their delusion, not the Bible, that motivated their killing.

Note my quotes and the rest of my post. I am in agreement with you on this point.

Daniel

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Hi JohnDeereFan,



Note my quotes and the rest of my post. I am in agreement with you on this point.

Daniel

Good. I assume that means that you're going to stop the stupid claim of "the Bible made them do it".

 

[talitha]

I realize I'm stepping into this discussion late, but I've skimmed through here and haven't seen that anyone else has said this.

Islam does not stand up to scrutiny at all, not even as a real religion. The Koran contains historical fabrications, and when examined Islam turns out to be a religion made up by a guy who was rejected as a prophet by the Jewish religious establishment of his day. The root of Islam is ambistion and sour grapes, and its afterlife promises are designed to motivate men to kill and die.

I know that many "atheists" and "agnostics" reject Christianity because they believe it doesn't stand up to philosophical scrutiny, but what about historical? In my estimation revelation trumps philosophy, since God by definition knows more than man, so all the philosophical arguments in the world can't convince me He's wrong. If I disagree with Him, I'm wrong. When we examine the Bible and compare it to recorded history, the Bible stands. Yes, there was a Jesus of Nazareth. Yes, there are the remains of the old city of Jerusalem. Yes, there was a pool at Bethesda that was rumored to be a place of healing, just like the Bible says. Yes, Noah's Ark has been found....... etc., etc......

blessings in Jesus
tal

 

[DanielRB]

Hi JohnDeereFan,

Good. I assume that means that you're going to stop the stupid claim of "the Bible made them do it".

If I ever made the claim, I would stop making that claim. But I have never made such a claim; you may be confusing me with another poster.

Daniel

 

[DanielRB]

Hi talitha,

I realize I'm stepping into this discussion late, but I've skimmed through here and haven't seen that anyone else has said this.

Islam does not stand up to scrutiny at all, not even as a real religion. The Koran contains historical fabrications, and when examined Islam turns out to be a religion made up by a guy who was rejected as a prophet by the Jewish religious establishment of his day. The root of Islam is ambistion and sour grapes, and its afterlife promises are designed to motivate men to kill and die.

I know that many "atheists" and "agnostics" reject Christianity because they believe it doesn't stand up to philosophical scrutiny, but what about historical? In my estimation revelation trumps philosophy, since God by definition knows more than man, so all the philosophical arguments in the world can't convince me He's wrong. If I disagree with Him, I'm wrong. When we examine the Bible and compare it to recorded history, the Bible stands. Yes, there was a Jesus of Nazareth. Yes, there are the remains of the old city of Jerusalem. Yes, there was a pool at Bethesda that was rumored to be a place of healing, just like the Bible says. Yes, Noah's Ark has been found....... etc., etc......

blessings in Jesus
tal

What specific historical claims that the Quran makes that you believe have been disproved?

As to Noah's ark: (1) what evidence has been found for Noah's ark? (2) Since the story of Noah's ark appears in the Quran, how would this evidence be used against the Quran?

Daniel

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Hi JohnDeereFan,



If I ever made the claim, I would stop making that claim. But I have never made such a claim; you may be confusing me with another poster.

Daniel

OK. Now you're just being foolish.

You've said over and over that the Bible motivates people to kill. Then you say that the Bible doesn't motivate to kill. Now, you say that you never said that the Bible motivates people to kill.

Thanks, but it's clear that you're just playing games and I don't have time.

 

[DanielRB]

Hi JohnDeereFan,

I think you're in danger of showing that you don't know what the "no true Scotsman falacy" is.



According to 1 John, those who practice sin are not Christians.



Self defence, capital punishment, war...

I finally stumbled across your post where you listed the justifications for a Christian to kill. Please forgive me for not seeing it earlier.

Your answer brings up several questions in my mind:
(1) Where does Jesus teach that self-defense is an acceptable reason for killing?
(2) What offenses do you think merit capital punishment?
(3) On war: do you believe that there are certain criteria which must be fulfilled for a Christian to be involved in a war--that is, a "just war" theory? If so, what are those criteria?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Daniel

 

[DanielRB]

Hi JohnDeereFan,

OK. Now you're just being foolish.

You've said over and over that the Bible motivates people to kill. Then you say that the Bible doesn't motivate to kill. Now, you say that you never said that the Bible motivates people to kill.

If I have made such a claim, please refer back to the posts where I have made such a claim. Since you claim I have said it "over and over" then finding one such post should be fairly easy to do. And since you claim that I've done it "over and over", I think you'll have to refer to at least two of my posts.

I think you're just honestly confusing me with someone else.

Thanks, but it's clear that you're just playing games and I don't have time.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Daniel

 

[talitha]

Some examples of historical inaccuracies in the Quran/Koran.....

Pharaoh: According to the Quran (Surah 7:120-125) Pharaoh used crucifixion in dealing with the sorcerers - a practice which historical evidence gives no precedent to before the Babylonian Empire. This is once again a problem of historical compression.

The Golden Calf: According to the Quran (Surah 20:90-100)a Samaritan helped the Israelites build the golden calf, and it mooed after coming out of the fire. In reality, Samaritans did not exist as a people until at least 1000 years after the time of the Moses and the Israelite exodus from Egypt. Again a problem of historical compression.

Judaism: According to the Quran (Surah 9:30) the Jews believe that Ezra is the Son of God - the Messiah. This never has been a tenet of Judaism. This is a clear problem of distorted knowledge of other religions and historical fact.

Alexander the Great: According to the Quran (Surah 18:89-98) Alexander the Great was a devout Muslim and lived to a ripe old age. Historical records however show that Alexander the Great died young at 33 years of age (b. 356 B.C. - d. 323 B.C.), and believed he was divine, forcing others to recognize him as such. In India on the Hyphasis River (now Beas) Alexander erected twelve altars to twelve Olympian gods. Once again the Quran shows errors in historical and religious fact.

(this is exerpted from this page - http://www.rim.org/muslim/quranproblems.htm)

I wasn't using Noah's ark against the Quran - only for the Bible. Haven't perused the Koran lately, my investigation into this was a few years ago, I forgot that Noah's ark was in there, although the story got mixed up by the time it made it to the Quran.

blessings
tal

 

[DanielRB]

Hi talitah,

Some examples of historical inaccuracies in the Quran/Koran.....

Pharaoh: According to the Quran (Surah 7:120-125) Pharaoh used crucifixion in dealing with the sorcerers - a practice which historical evidence gives no precedent to before the Babylonian Empire. This is once again a problem of historical compression.

The Golden Calf: According to the Quran (Surah 20:90-100)a Samaritan helped the Israelites build the golden calf, and it mooed after coming out of the fire. In reality, Samaritans did not exist as a people until at least 1000 years after the time of the Moses and the Israelite exodus from Egypt. Again a problem of historical compression.

Judaism: According to the Quran (Surah 9:30) the Jews believe that Ezra is the Son of God - the Messiah. This never has been a tenet of Judaism. This is a clear problem of distorted knowledge of other religions and historical fact.

Alexander the Great: According to the Quran (Surah 18:89-98) Alexander the Great was a devout Muslim and lived to a ripe old age. Historical records however show that Alexander the Great died young at 33 years of age (b. 356 B.C. - d. 323 B.C.), and believed he was divine, forcing others to recognize him as such. In India on the Hyphasis River (now Beas) Alexander erected twelve altars to twelve Olympian gods. Once again the Quran shows errors in historical and religious fact.

(this is exerpted from this page - http://www.rim.org/muslim/quranproblems.htm)

I wasn't using Noah's ark against the Quran - only for the Bible. Haven't perused the Koran lately, my investigation into this was a few years ago, I forgot that Noah's ark was in there, although the story got mixed up by the time it made it to the Quran.

blessings
tal

Thanks for your post, I appreciate the info.

On Noah's ark, your post indicated that it had been found. Can you share that evidence? Thanks!

Daniel

 

[talitha]

Sorry - I saw a documentary on it a couple of years ago, and I felt that the evidence was sufficient when I watched it, but I don't remember the name of it? Interestingly, what they found was an almond-shaped vessel rather than the rectangular shape that people have supposed the ark must be. Now I want to find that documentary again..... ugh......

 

[Everlasting33]

Hi 314159,

I don't really think you have a strong point about Christians and violence, to be honest.

Yes, the Bible (as misunderstood) does "motivate" people to kill. So does an atheistic worldview (when misunderstood). One might say "hey, there's no heaven or hell, so let me do whatever I want, no matter who it hurts, because there are no moral absolutes!" (Atheism, per se really has no moral teachings, of course--though some atheistic systems do. But that doesn't keep people from trying to pull moral implications out of it.)

A perversion of atheism? Perhaps. But your argument simply seems to be that some people have perverted Christianity. Sure, but what's the point? I am certain you can look at any belief-system (whether religious or not) and see perversions of the original intent.

It's a trivial point to say that people can misunderstand things, pull passages from various works out of context and build entire systems that when examined are in direct opposition to the original teachings in that system.

Daniel

Reps for you buddy! Excellent post!

 

[Everlasting33]

Sorry - I saw a documentary on it a couple of years ago, and I felt that the evidence was sufficient when I watched it, but I don't remember the name of it? Interestingly, what they found was an almond-shaped vessel rather than the rectangular shape that people have supposed the ark must be. Now I want to find that documentary again..... ugh......

I do not believe the ark has been found yet.

Here is a man from Liberty University (where I attended) who is on a voyage to find Noah's Ark:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,486684,00.html

 

[DanielRB]

Reps for you buddy! Excellent post!

Thanks, Steelerbred.

(Great game on Sunday, eh?)