Why aren't you a muslim?

[DanielRB]

Wow, great job at arguing!!! One of the best I have seen in a long time.

Thanks, ke1985.

 

[DanielRB]

Hi, JohnDeereFan,

Yeah, if you don't like the objective and authoritative standard by which something is judged, go ahead and accuse your oponent of the "no true scotsman fallacy".

Yeah, that's brilliant.

I do not have a problem with objective and an authoritative standard; quite the opposite.

Can you demonstrate where I am wrong in accusing you of this fallacy?

First, we need an objective standard of what a Christian is and what a Christian is not. I'm assuming that the best guide of that would be the Bible.

Does the Bible, in fact, state that one is no longer (or never was) a Christian if he or she kills? This sounds a little like works-based salvation to me. I think all of us recognize that all Christians, no matter how "pure" in the world's eyes, occasionally do sin.

Now, certain sins may preclude a person being a Christian, such as apostasy, because they reject the basic tenants of the Christian faith. But murder, no matter how henious, is not shown in the Bible to be an unforgivable sin.

Some Christians, I know, reject all killing (even in self-defense). However, most Christians in history have accepted that some killing is justified, such as to defend the innocent from harm. I believe most of those who have killed abortionists and bombed clinics have done so with the view that they are defending life by taking the lives of those who would take innocent life.

We may reject their reasoning, but (a) by what criteria do you reject it and (b) does their faulty reasoning either make them never Christian or fallen from grace?

I am truly interested in hearing your response; I was not just accusing you of the True Scotsman Fallacy just to insult you or to make myself seem like a philosopher. I'm not just throwing around claims and words like rhetorical bombs...I'm just trying to converse.

Daniel

 

[JohnDeereFan]

It doesn't matter who these words were ORIGINALLY directed at.

Yes, it is. If it is not directed to Christians, then it is false for you to say that it is teaching Christians to kill.

If Christian picks up the bible and sees their God condoning these prejudices, then they can justify having the prejudices themselves.

First of all, God's commands are not "prejudices", they're God's commands.

Second, if a misguided person believed that these things are commands for him to kill people, then he believes so in spite of the Bible's teaching, not because of it.

If God takes a strong stance on homosexuality (as he seems to), then someone who reads and believes the book should conclude that homosexuality is wrong (after all, who are they to question the Creator's opinion?). Many people act on these prejudices in the form of violence and sometimes even murder.

And we should believe that homosexuality is wrong, however, the Bible never one time tells Christians to kill homosexuals.

As an example:
Westboro Baptist Church

Which is neither Christian, nor even Baptist, so your point is moot.

A bunch of wackos perhaps, but they hold their beliefs due to the fact that they worship the same God as you. You could retort that this is an example of "Christianity gone bad", that they are not "true Christians", but at the end of the day, they are just acting on what they read in their holy book. Who knows whether their intepretation might be more accurate than yours?

First of all, no, they don't read these things in their holy book (unless they have some "holy book" other than the Bible that we don't know about). It is a cult that is directed by one man and what he decrees from his pulpit.

Second, they're not Christians. The Bible gives us criteria that a person or people or group of people must meet in order to be Christians. Westboro Church does not meet these criteria.

I'd say that quote from Thessalonians is blatantly anti-Semitic.

And you would be wrong, but perhaps that's because you quoted it so badly out of context.

Let's remember that, elsewhere in the scriptures, Paul expressed a deep love for the Jews and desire for them to be saved.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Can you demonstrate where I am wrong in accusing you of this fallacy?

It is up to you to demonstrate that your claim is true, not up to me to disprove it.

Does the Bible, in fact, state that one is no longer (or never was) a Christian if he or she kills? This sounds a little like works-based salvation to me. I think all of us recognize that all Christians, no matter how "pure" in the world's eyes, occasionally do sin.

Yes, Christians do sin. However, the Bible makes a very clear distinction between somebody who sins in a momentary moral lapse and somebody who practices lawlessness.

4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Some Christians, I know, reject all killing (even in self-defense). However, most Christians in history have accepted that some killing is justified, such as to defend the innocent from harm. I believe most of those who have killed abortionists and bombed clinics have done so with the view that they are defending life by taking the lives of those who would take innocent life.

And there are people who commit adultery and justify it by saying that they're only providing a little happiness to somebody trapped in a loveless marriage.

And there are people who justify stealing by saying that large corporations owe it to the "little people".

 

[DanielRB]

Hi JohnDeereFan,

It is up to you to demonstrate that your claim is true, not up to me to disprove it.

Fair enough. I believe that your definition of what a true Christian is may include elements that are not inherently part of the Christian faith. I believe that the Bible teaches that, in order to be a Christian, one must accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, believing that he died as propitiation for sin and raised again, and will come again in glory.

Yes, Christians do sin. However, the Bible makes a very clear distinction between somebody who sins in a momentary moral lapse and somebody who practices lawlessness.

Thanks for the Scripture quote. So, would you say that be definition, killing would be persisting in sin, rather than just a momentary lapse?

As far as "practicing lawlessness", would this be breaking man's law or God's law? If man's law, what about one who persistently drives over the speed limit? Would he be by definition a practicer of lawlessness and not a Christian? If God's law, would it be possible that there was a law that man set up contrary to God and a Christian would be compelled to break it?

And there are people who commit adultery and justify it by saying that they're only providing a little happiness to somebody trapped in a loveless marriage.

And there are people who justify stealing by saying that large corporations owe it to the "little people".

But we're not talking about adultery or stealing; we're talking about killing. To repeat one of my questions, do you think that a Christian is ever justified in killing, and if so, under what circumstances and conditions?

Daniel

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Hi JohnDeereFan,



Fair enough. I believe that your definition of what a true Christian is may include elements that are not inherently part of the Christian faith. I believe that the Bible teaches that, in order to be a Christian, one must accept Jesus as Lord and Savior

Really? Where does the Bible say anything at all about "accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior"?

Thanks for the Scripture quote. So, would you say that be definition, killing would be persisting in sin, rather than just a momentary lapse?

If you kill somebody and try to cover it up and run from the police, that's an ongoing pattern of sin.

As far as "practicing lawlessness", would this be breaking man's law or God's law?

Didn't you read the passage I posted?

But we're not talking about adultery or stealing; we're talking about killing.

No, we're talking about justifying sin.

To repeat one of my questions, do you think that a Christian is ever justified in killing, and if so, under what circumstances and conditions?

Same answer I gave you the last time you asked this question.

 

[DanielRB]

Hi JohnDeereFan,

Really? Where does the Bible say anything at all about "accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior"?

Ok, not in those exact words. Here are some Scriptures that may clarify what I mean: Mark 16:16 (disputed, I know); Acts 2:21, 8:37 (though I realize this verse is disputed as well), 15:11, 16:31; Romans 10:9, 13; 2 Thess 2:13.

That's only a few. The ideas that I've gathered from the New Testament as a whole is that a Christian is one who (a) believes; (b) confesses; (c) repents; (d) is baptized (though some dispute the necessity of this).

If you kill somebody and try to cover it up and run from the police, that's an ongoing pattern of sin.

Now you're equivacating. What if someone does kill abortionists, doesn't run, and proudly says "I did it because I thought it was the right thing to do." We're talking about the act of killing, not what comes afterwards.

Didn't you read the passage I posted?

Yes, I did--so I'll assume you meant God's law. What if God's law is in opposition to man's law, and man's law claims, for example, that all Jews need to be taken to death camps? Would a Christian then be justified to resist such a law, and even kill to defend the innocent?

No, we're talking about justifying sin.

So do you assume that all killing is automatically sinful?

Same answer I gave you the last time you asked this question.

I'm sorry, I've looked through the posts but I didn't find it. Could you please tell me what post number? Or if you just thought you answered it but didn't (this happens to me all the time), please clarify your belief: do you believe that killing is ever justified, and if so, under what circumstances?

Daniel

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Ok, not in those exact words. Here are some Scriptures that may clarify what I mean: Mark 16:16

That says believe and be baptised, not "accept Christ".

Acts 2:21

That says "call upon the name of the Lord", not "accept Christ".

8:37

Nope, nothing about accepting Christ there.

15:11

Talks about being saved through grace, not "accepting Christ".

16:31

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ", not "accept Christ".

Romans 10:9

Talks about confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart, not "accepting Christ".

13

"Call upon the Lord", not "accept Christ".

2 Thess 2:13.

Salvation through sanctification of the Holy Spirit and belief in the truth of the Gospel, not "accepting Christ".

Now you're equivacating.

No, it's called answering your question. Not giving you the answer you want to hear is not "equivacating"(sic).

What if someone does kill abortionists, doesn't run, and proudly says "I did it because I thought it was the right thing to do." We're talking about the act of killing, not what comes afterwards.

Then they're still morally culpable for their sin.

Yes, I did--so I'll assume you meant God's law. What if God's law is in opposition to man's law, and man's law claims, for example, that all Jews need to be taken to death camps? Would a Christian then be justified to resist such a law, and even kill to defend the innocent?

See Acts 5:29

So do you assume that all killing is automatically sinful?

Does the answer I gave you when you asked me what circumstances it's permissible to kill sound like I assume all killing is sinful?

 

[DanielRB]

Hi, JohnDeereFan,

That says believe and be baptised, not "accept Christ".

That says "call upon the name of the Lord", not "accept Christ".

Nope, nothing about accepting Christ there.

Talks about being saved through grace, not "accepting Christ".

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ", not "accept Christ".

Talks about confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart, not "accepting Christ".

"Call upon the Lord", not "accept Christ".

Salvation through sanctification of the Holy Spirit and belief in the truth of the Gospel, not "accepting Christ".

So...if you call upon the name of the Lord, are saved by grace, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, confess with your mouth and believe in your heart in Christ, call upon the Lord, are saved by being sanctified by the Holy Spirit, believe the truth of the gospel...you are not "accepting Christ"?

Seems odd to me. I thought all of those things were "accepting Christ."

No, it's called answering your question. Not giving you the answer you want to hear is not "equivacating"(sic).

Sorry for the misspelling, by bad.

However, what I meant was that you're saying that the actions after the killing determine whether or not they were sinful--or sinfully abiding in sin. I'm talking about the killing itself.

Then they're still morally culpable for their sin.

So the actual killing is still sinful, in your view. Thanks--I appreciate you answering my question.

See Acts 5:29

Ok, I understand. Your answer to the following question will further explain your position.

Does the answer I gave you when you asked me what circumstances it's permissible to kill sound like I assume all killing is sinful?

I'm sorry, I'm not sure when that was. What post number was that?

Daniel

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Hi, JohnDeereFan,



So...if you call upon the name of the Lord, are saved by grace, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, confess with your mouth and believe in your heart in Christ, call upon the Lord, are saved by being sanctified by the Holy Spirit, believe the truth of the gospel...you are not "accepting Christ"?

Seems odd to me. I thought all of those things were "accepting Christ."

No, we're never instructed to "accept Christ". To the contrary, the Bible tells us that it is up to Christ to accept us (or not).

However, what I meant was that you're saying that the actions after the killing determine whether or not they were sinful--or sinfully abiding in sin. I'm talking about the killing itself.

I'm talking about the killing combined with factors surrounding the killing.

So the actual killing is still sinful, in your view. Thanks--I appreciate you answering my question.

No problem. Not sure why you didn't get it the first time I said it.

 

[314159]

Yes, it is. If it is not directed to Christians, then it is false for you to say that it is teaching Christians to kill.

Haha, once again, at no point did I say Christians are taught to kill by the bible. To quote the original post for a THIRD time:

"Thousands of christians are motivated through their religion to kill people as well."

Do you see any suggestion in there that these Christians are using the bible as an instruction booklet for murder? Before we can continue this discussion any further you need to see the difference between motivation and direct instruction; at present it appears you are blind to this difference.

Yes, it is. If it is not directed to Christians, then it is false for you to say that it is teaching Christians to kill.

It makes no difference. If a Christian reads a bible passage that incites intolerance towards homosexuality, and decides that this attitude towards homosexuality is acceptable because it comes from the book of their god, then this Christian's intolerance of homosexuality is motivated by his/her belief in God. Agreed? So if a Christian decides to take action against certain homosexuals, then this action is also motivated by their religion.
Whether you think that this Christian has misintepretted the text is immaterial.

If you have a problem with the above paragraph, please let me know which specific points you find inaccurate and why. I would be interested to know.

 

[Everlasting33]

It makes no difference. If a Christian reads a bible passage that incites intolerance towards homosexuality, and decides that this attitude towards homosexuality is acceptable because it comes from the book of their god, then this Christian's intolerance of homosexuality is motivated by his/her belief in God. Agreed? So if a Christian decides to take action against certain homosexuals, then this action is also motivated by their religion.
Whether you think that this Christian has misintepretted the text is immaterial.

If you have a problem with the above paragraph, please let me know which specific points you find inaccurate and why. I would be interested to know.

So, are you saying that Christians have justifiable cause to hurt homosexuals?

 

[314159]

So, are you saying that Christians have justifiable cause to hurt homosexuals?

No, I am saying that Christians who cause hurt to homosexuals are able to justify their actions to themselves through their religion.

 

[Everlasting33]

No, I am saying that Christians who cause hurt to homosexuals are able to justify their actions to themselves through their religion.

So? They are still wrong.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Haha, once again, at no point did I say Christians are taught to kill by the bible. To quote the original post for a THIRD time:

"Thousands of christians are motivated through their religion to kill people as well."

Do you see any suggestion in there that these Christians are using the bible as an instruction booklet for murder?

Yes. All of our teaching and all of our doctrine comes from the Bible. Our religion is based on the Bible, so when you say that Christianity motivates people to kill, you're saying that the Bible motivates people to kill.

It makes no difference. If a Christian reads a bible passage that incites intolerance towards homosexuality, and decides that this attitude towards homosexuality is acceptable because it comes from the book of their god, then this Christian's intolerance of homosexuality is motivated by his/her belief in God.

Intolerance is not murder.

So if a Christian decides to take action against certain homosexuals, then this action is also motivated by their religion

Not if Christianity teaches AGAINST such actions.

Whether you think that this Christian has misintepretted the text is immaterial.

No, it is crucial.

 

[314159]

So? They are still wrong.

This is my point - people can do things that most of us would deem to be terrible, but they can justify their actions to themselves through their religion. Indeed, I would sat that most of them think that they are doing the right thing in most cases.

 

[Everlasting33]

This is my point - people can do things that most of us would deem to be terrible, but they can justify their actions to themselves through their religion. Indeed, I would sat that most of them think that they are doing the right thing in most cases.

Yes, I agree with this point. But they cannot justify their actions since God commands murder is wrong.

Every human being believes, in some ways, that their behavior and beliefs are right and justified.

Hitler thought he was doing the right thing by masterminding annihilation of the Jews. But he was wrong in that thinking.

You are always going to have people who have their own ideas, in contrary, to Scripture and of the law.

 

[314159]

Yes. All of our teaching and all of our doctrine comes from the Bible. Our religion is based on the Bible, so when you say that Christianity motivates people to kill, you're saying that the Bible motivates people to kill.

Correct, I am saying that the bible motivates some people to kill. This is different from saying the bible teaches people to kill, which seems to be what you are suggesting I am saying.

Intolerance is not murder.

Intolerance can lead to murder

Not if Christianity teaches AGAINST such actions.

This is the problem. We will likely find verses both for and against various issues in the bible (acceptance of homosexuality, for example), so you can pick and choose which view you'd like to take. I presume you sensibly ignore the verses which condemn homosexuality as a sin. However, the next man may not.

No, it is crucial.

How so?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Correct, I am saying that the bible motivates some people to kill.

Finally. Thank you for admitting it.

The Bible cannot motivate Christians to kill because it teaches us the exact opposite of that.

Intolerance can lead to murder

Intolerance is intolerance. Murder is murder.

This is the problem. We will likely find verses both for and against various issues in the bible (acceptance of homosexuality, for example), so you can pick and choose which view you'd like to take. I presume you sensibly ignore the verses which condemn homosexuality as a sin. However, the next man may not.

No, I do not ignore God's condemnation of homosexuality.

 

[314159]

Finally. Thank you for admitting it.

Erm, this is what I posted originally:

"Thousands of christians are motivated through their religion to kill people as well."

So, what's your point!?

The Bible cannot motivate Christians to kill because it teaches us the exact opposite of that.

Indeed it does, countless Christians manage to find ways round this though: execution, war etc. Indeed, some people may think they are doing the lord's work by killing abortion doctors.

Intolerance is intolerance. Murder is murder.

Can you not see that intolerance can lead to murder?

No, I do not ignore God's condemnation of homosexuality.

Oh dear, you've certainly gone down in my estimations.