Why aren't you a muslim?

[Maranatha27]

Hi JohnDeereFan,



I think you're in danger of falling into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

You must admit that Christians fall into sin, and sometimes may even murder. Sinning, in and of itself, does not make someone not a Christian, according to the Bible.

Those that bomb abortion clinics and kill abortionists view themselves like those Christian Generals and others (including Bohnhoffer, a pastor) who plotted to kill Hitler. Yes, it would be murder and yes it would be illegal, but they thought it was justified given the circumstances. You (as myself) are simply rejecting their point of view.

May I ask when you think, if ever, it is justified for a Christian to kill?

Daniel

Hi Daniel,

Reading some of your reponses I had an unsettling feeling. This thread started with the question "why are you not a muslim?". At some point killing in the name of religion became the theme of this thread.

A better understanding of the Koran and the Bible would shed some light on this sensitive issue. Lets start with the Koran first. In the Koran you can find both good and bad statement about "The People of the Book" (Jews and Christians). There is no doubt in the original Arabic there are several clear statements made by thier prophet to kill these people, and not only the peopleotb but any infidel that will not submit to Allah. A moslem may take you to a surah, that no doubt speaks in favor of the potb. So how does the muslim deal with these conflicting verses? When a muslim reads his Koran there is a concept called "Nask". Simply put any verse that contradicts a prior verse, the later revelation cancels the early verse. Upon reading the Koran you would find that that is an ill omen for anyone that would reject Allah and his prophet Muhammad. A moslom goes through his or her entire life unsure if Allah will accept them, the prophet Muhammad was unsure of his salvation when upon the Earth. At death the muslim faces scales and if the good in thier life out wieghs the bad, then they will be accepted. There is a loophole however, if a person becomes a martyr for Allah then the scales are wiped clean and they are freely accepted, with all the carnal perks a sinner could desire.

There is also a very sad story in the Koran with a woman caught in adultry. The woman was became pregnent and was brought to Muhammad. He told the woman to come back after the child was weened. When she came to him and proved that the child could take bread, the prophet digged a hole and buried the women up to her neck and stoned her.

Compare that to when a women was caught in the act and was brought to the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Maranatha27]

Hi Daniel,

To continue on the same theme, In response to some of you posts and others about the fact that Jehovah comanded that violators of His Law in the camp of Israel to be put to death. You also brought up the fact that as the Israelites when taking possesion of the land, Jehovah comanded that the people were to be slain and that none were to remain.

As for the people that were in possesion of the land before the Israelites, the Bible is not silent. The people had become so vile in the sight of the Lord that He could no longer tolerate them, because of their unspeakably corrupt lives the land was about to vomit them out (Lev 18:25). In Abrahams day we are told that the iniquity of the Amorites was not yet full (Gen 15:16). God had therefore waited in longsuffering and mercy, but now the nations of Cannan had sunk into such depravity and the land had become so defiled, the only remedy was judgement. It is also telling That all these people had heard of the God of Israel and the wonders that He wrought in Egypt. Rahab being a prime example of repenting and coming to faith after hearing of Yahweh and how He promised the Israelites the land. There is also a command in Exodus that I was unable to find that speaks of when the Israelites went to war and the enemy came out in peace that they should not be harmed, and the history recorded in Joshua is to the contrary.

As for the Law of God, the children of Israel accepted it

Exodus 24
3 When Moses went and told the people all the LORD's words and laws, they responded with one voice, "Everything the LORD has said we will do."

God knowing that this people could not keep the Law provided a sacrificial system, where a repentant person could recieve forgiveness by the sheding of blood. This was done continually because the blood of bulls and goats could only cover sins and not take them away. Mercy rejoiceth against judgement. Jehovah always provided a way to himself and it is crystal clear in scripture how communication with sinful man and Holy God was possible, and that was through the sheding of blood. Adam, Abel, the passover, the sacrifical system all pointed to the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ who was sinless bore the full penalty of the Law, that you and I may be acceptable to a Holy God. The penalty of sin is terrible as Paul through the Holy Spirit tells us, the wages of sin is death. God Himself bore the full penalty that we might enter into eternal life. Now God proclaims that those that are not under the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ are subject to judgement. He destroy the world with water the first time, and promised that the second time would be with fire. There are many illustations of shelter from the Almightys wrath, but sinful men and women sadly don't heed the mesage. When a man accidently killed a person, God provided six cities of refuge. The person was to flee there and they would be safe from the avenger of blood, usually a famly member of the victim. If they left the city before a new high priest was appointed they were able to be slain. Sadly scripture records men that did not heed the Word and were killed. Rahab was comanded that she hang a scarlet ribbon or cloth on her house and that all people that remained in the house durring the siege would be saved, but anyone that ventured out was in danger of death. The blood on the door post in the passover it all speaks of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is our surety, our hiding place.


Isaiah 55
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

 

[Maranatha27]

I think you're in danger of falling into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

You must admit that Christians fall into sin, and sometimes may even murder. Sinning, in and of itself, does not make someone not a Christian, according to the Bible.

Those that bomb abortion clinics and kill abortionists view themselves like those Christian Generals and others (including Bohnhoffer, a pastor) who plotted to kill Hitler. Yes, it would be murder and yes it would be illegal, but they thought it was justified given the circumstances. You (as myself) are simply rejecting their point of view.

May I ask when you think, if ever, it is justified for a Christian to kill?

Daniel

After reading this quote I didn't respond to it properly. When a muslim kills himself and and takes a couple of Jews with him, he is assuring himself a place in paradise in full commitment to his revelation from god. When a lunitic "christian" goes and kills an aborionist he is acting directly contrary to the words of the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is a weak example

 

[coldsnailnet]

314159, hey sorry didn't catch your name... I'm James.

You said earlier:

My beliefs are not something I can choose. Even if the Christian lifestyle was incredibly beneficial compared to all others, that wouldn't make me a Christian, because I can't believe something when evidence suggests contrary to it. The fact that something makes you feel good doesn't make it true.

Hey I totally agree that believing something doesn't make it right... even believing something sincerely, because you can still be sincerely wrong!

But can I ask what the evidence is that you have seen/encountered which suggests contrary to the truth of the Bible and Christianity?

James

 

[Apodictic]

Hi Maranatha27,

If you do not mind, might I ask you for examples in the Koran for these things you mentioned.

There is no doubt in the original Arabic there are several clear statements made by thier prophet to kill these people, and not only the peopleotb but any infidel that will not submit to Allah.

Simply put any verse that contradicts a prior verse, the later revelation cancels the early verse.

A moslom goes through his or her entire life unsure if Allah will accept them, the prophet Muhammad was unsure of his salvation when upon the Earth. At death the muslim faces scales and if the good in thier life out wieghs the bad, then they will be accepted. There is a loophole however, if a person becomes a martyr for Allah then the scales are wiped clean and they are freely accepted, with all the carnal perks a sinner could desire.

There is also a very sad story in the Koran with a woman caught in adultry. The woman was became pregnent and was brought to Muhammad. He told the woman to come back after the child was weened. When she came to him and proved that the child could take bread, the prophet digged a hole and buried the women up to her neck and stoned her.

Specifically I am curious about these things.

1. Koran on having the ability to freely kill those who do not submit to Allah, without doubt.

2. Koran on abrogation.

3. Koran on salvation being uncertain

4. Koran on martyrs getting a free ticket to heaven without recompense of deeds.

5. Koran on carnal perks in paradise.

6. Where in the Koran is this story you mention?

 

[Maranatha27]

Hi Maranatha27,

If you do not mind, might I ask you for examples in the Koran for these things you mentioned.

Specifically I am curious about these things.

1. Koran on having the ability to freely kill those who do not submit to Allah, without doubt.

2. Koran on abrogation.

3. Koran on salvation being uncertain

4. Koran on martyrs getting a free ticket to heaven without recompense of deeds.

5. Koran on carnal perks in paradise.

6. Where in the Koran is this story you mention?

Hi A,

Most of my infomation was gleaned from the Caner brothers and many others that converted to Christianity from Islam. The story my be contained in the Hadith and would be my error, but I will do my best to provide you with this material.

 

[Maranatha27]

Hi A,

You have to forgive me because Im doing my best, I can not claim to any authorty when dealing with the Koran and Hadith only having read through the Koran once. I can only provide verses that are in question. Judging by the fruit Islam has borne, I believe the that the application of these verses has produced the hundreds if not thousands of suicide bombers in the past year alone.

Koran on having the ability to freely kill those who do not submit to Allah?

There were many other examples in the Koran that were disturbing, but these are sufficient. As a layman reading these verses, it is clear that the only peace is with the convert to Allah.

[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
[2.194] The Sacred month for the sacred month and all sacred things are (under the law of) retaliation; whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you and be careful (of your duty) to Allah and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

[3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.
[3.152] And certainly Allah made good to you His promise when you slew them by His permission, until when you became weak-hearted and disputed about the affair and disobeyed after He had shown you that which you loved; of you were some who desired this world and of you were some who desired the hereafter; then He turned you away from them that He might try you; and He has certainly pardoned you, and Allah is Gracious to the believers.

​

[4.88] What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given.you a clear authority​

 

[Maranatha27]

[SIZE=+2]Koran on abrogation?
Again I have no authority to speak on the subject, this was a paper writen from the point of view of the problem with koranic abrogation, that fact remains that there is such a thing and it is needed for the comprehension of the Koran.

"Muslim authorities try to explain the internal contradictions in the Qur'an by stating that certain passages of the Qur'an are annulled (Mansukh) by verses revealed chronologically later than themselves. The verses which replace them are referred to as Nasikh. Yet, there is by no means any certainty as to which disagreeing verses are mansukh and which are nasikh, since the order in which the Qur'an was written down was not done chronologically but according to the length of the suras.
From the preceding section we have found that even the text at our disposal was found and collated piecemeal, leaving us little hope of delineating which suras were the more authentic. Furthermore, Muslim tradition admits that many of the suras were not even given to Muhammad in one piece. According to tradition, some portions were added to other suras under the direction of Muhammad, with further additions to the former suras. Therefore, within a given sura there may be found ayas which were early, and others which were quite late. How then could we know which were the more authoritative?
The law of abrogation is taught by the Qur'an in sura 2:106,108, stating: "We substitute one revelation for another..." This is echoed in sura 17:86, which reads, "If it were Our Will, We could take away that which We have sent thee by inspiration." In sura 16:101 the law of abrogation is clearly defined as one verse being substituted by a better verse. Verse 101 read, "None of our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar- Knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?""

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9d.htm
[/SIZE]

 

[Maranatha27]

Ill do my best to finish later