Why are we accountable if we did not ask to be exist?

dc87

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I am going to respond with what may seem to be a harsh tone, but I promise you it is not meant to be.

First, why do you refer to God as your Father? Because you believe in God? That is not enough, for when Jesus came to his own people, the Jews—although they believed in God—they did not receive him, “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:11-13).

The underlying issue you have is that you reject God’s word, which testify of the Lord Jesus Christ. Do you believe in God? Why don’t you believe what he says? Read the words of Paul, “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve” (1 Corinthians 15:3-5).

Again, the only way that you can have a relationship with God as your father is by being born again. That is only possible through the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6).

Without your acceptance of God’s word as authoritative, no one on this forum can truly give you a biblical or Christian response to your question.

Until then, here are some questions for you:

Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
“Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Dress for action like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.
Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell, if you have understanding.” Job 38:1-4

And the Lord said to Job,
“Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
He who argues with God, let him answer it.” Job 40:1-2

“You will say to me then, ‘Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?’ But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, ‘Why have you made me like this?’” Romans 9:19-20

The book of Job is my favorite. And no, I understand why the molder made man. To prove to satan that He is Love. I am asking how he can make us eternally acountable when we never chosen to be eternal. He gave us the ability to chose life or death... but not existence vs non existence.
 
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dc87

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The greatest question, that will lead to the answer for you, is how does God hold you accountable? If charges are brought against you, why are you guilty and not innocent? Can you give an example of the charges you are facing?

This is what I am asking. The bible tells us we are accountable and guilty. Therefore how are we held accountable for an occupation not chosen?
 
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dc87

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.... So He has put the ball squarely in your court. You can choose to be accountable to Him or you can go your own way and choose not to be accountable to Him. He is certainly not going to force you....

actually He IS in essence forcing you. let us define force.
force: "coercion or compulsion, especially with the use or threat of violence."

does the government force you to pay taxes? yes.

does God force you to go His way? yes
 
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dc87

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.... I was asking what you though of someone who, therefore chooses not to have children, likely, and specifically because their children didn't ask, and are bound to a certain standard if born.

I wonder this when I think of having another child. I dont know that the 'be fruitful and multiply' command is valid anymore since the fall.
 
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dc87

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I believe the Mormons have an answer to this question. We were spirits beforehand, and chose to come to earth. So for them, there was a pre- existence and pre-choice.

Well we finally have one possible answer. Now we are talking. And I agree with the response of Ygrene here.

I believe each and every spirit child of God chooses either to follow God or not. Their choice is made in the spirit world before they enter their body's on earth...

This is somewhat calvinistic but ok - one possibility.
 
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dc87

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The basic answer is like this: the way that you have operated your life has impacted the lives of others. This is why you are accountable for it. Just as a driver of that car is accountable for how he operated the car .....

......Do you know what particular reason you have that causes you to distrust Him? Do you think that He is an unfair judge?....

I love the car analogy which seems perfect. And to that I ask whos decision it was to put me in that car? Mine? Hmm that means I chose to come into this world. His? ok then did He ask me if I feel capable of driving the car. If not then why am I blamed if I reck it if i was forced into the drivers seat?


And to answer your question... I dont think it would matter if I think He is a trustworthy judge or not. Hes still the judge and im trying to find the reasoning behind judging me in the first place.
 
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least

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The book of Job is my favorite. And no, I understand why the molder made man. To prove to satan that He is Love. I am asking how he can make us eternally acountable when we never chosen to be eternal. He gave us the ability to chose life or death... but not existence vs non existence.
How did you come to the conclusion that God made man to prove to Satan that he is love? Satan himself is a created being; God doesn't have anything to prove to Satan. In fact, Satan stands condemned before God for his rebellion.

And he doesn't have to prove anything to us either. However,

"But God demonstrates his own love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

And so we see that while he has no requirement to prove anything to us, he has certainly given evidence to the fact.

How can he hold us eternally accountable when we never chose to be eternal? Again, how can the clay say to the potter, "Why did you make me like this?" (Romans 9:20). Paul is referencing Jeremiah 18, where God is telling him that Israel is the clay and he is the potter. God is shaping Israel into the ideal nation that will point the world to him.

But Israel was rebellious and so God gave them a choice to allow him to shape them into a vessel of honor or shape them into calamity. The same is true for the world today, because God has made provision for everyone through Christ.

Frankly, God is not willing that any should perish, but that all will come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9) and be saved and come to a correct knowledge of him (1 Timothy 2:4). Even to the clay that refuses to form to his will, he exhorts, "Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds" (Jeremiah 18:11).

Salvation is available to all people, and it is God's desire that they receive it. No, he did not ask you whether or not you wanted to be created, nor did he ask you if you would prefer eternal life or temporal. And I will say you will not find an answer from anyone on this forum, or anywhere else for that matter.

The fact is that you exist and you will exist forever. You can snarl your lip and shake your fist at God if you wish, but he has a lot better planned for you if you will receive it. It is my hope and prayer that you will entrust your life to the one who is faithful.
 
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Galatea

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actually He IS in essence forcing you. let us define force.
force: "coercion or compulsion, especially with the use or threat of violence."

does the government force you to pay taxes? yes.

does God force you to go His way? yes
He forces you to either go His way or go to Hell. You decide, not Him.

He forces you to choose, absolutely!

I meant He does not force you to choose Him. He lets you decide if you want Him and everything beautiful and wonderful or if you want your own way.

It is binary.
 
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Steve Petersen

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This is what I am asking. The bible tells us we are accountable and guilty. Therefore how are we held accountable for an occupation not chosen?

I think this question assumes original sin, that we are all born condemned. Not everyone believes in that doctrine.
 
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Widlast

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You said:

"The argument " I did not ask to be born" is a non-starter right there.
You have to deal with reality, you are born, whether you "asked" to be or not is meaningless.
You were created, you are here. Thus, having being, you are responsible for your actions
. There are certain behaviors which are evil no matter what opinions or points of view you may have. If you pursue evil and continue in it, God (and everyone else) has a right to find fault with your bad behavior."

The context is in bold, and underlined. I was asking what you though of someone who, therefore chooses not to have children, likely, and specifically because their children didn't ask, and are bound to a certain standard if born.
The statement "I did not ask to be born" is ridiculous. I could say more but it would come across as harsh. At the very least it appeals to a certain disdain of reality, to selfish egotism. No sane person could use that as a "reason" for not having children, because it is not a reason, it is an appeal to childishness.

The main reasons people do not have children are:
1. inability, i.e. the person is functionally sterile
2. realization that the person is not emotionally or mentally capable of raising children properly
3. selfishness, the unwillingness to spend resources and time on somebody else (this one is destroying Europe as we speak)
 
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dc87

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The statement "I did not ask to be born" is ridiculous. I could say more but it would come across as harsh. At the very least it appeals to a certain disdain of reality, to selfish egotism. No sane person could use that as a "reason" for not having children, because it is not a reason, it is an appeal to childishness.

The main reasons people do not have children are:
1. inability, i.e. the person is functionally sterile
2. realization that the person is not emotionally or mentally capable of raising children properly
3. selfishness, the unwillingness to spend resources and time on somebody else (this one is destroying Europe as we speak)

i could not disagree more.
 
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dc87

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He forces you to either go His way or go to Hell. You decide, not Him.

He forces you to choose, absolutely!

I meant He does not force you to choose Him. He lets you decide if you want Him and everything beautiful and wonderful or if you want your own way.

It is binary.

right.... we are not machines

a choice is do you want blueberry or strawberry jelly.

forcing someone is .... pay taxes or go to jail.
 
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dc87

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Because man was created by the holy God Almighty. This man had freewill and would be tested to see if he was holy as to his ways. Man became fallen and God provided a way to know what sin is - the law of commandments - and He-willing that none should perish-sent His Son/Himself in the flesh - as our Redeemer. Now, we have a choice - you can die one day as - lost -bound for hell - or in Christ/redeemed -purchased by His precious blood -and inherit eternal life.

How you started out is a sinner - but you can live -die/finish your course - as redeemed and with hope of the promise of the gift of eternal life.

gee sounds fun. i think everyone should have children and force them to have to go through the same thing! .... not....
 
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cuja1

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gee sounds fun. i think everyone should have children and force them to have to go through the same thing! .... not....

Question:

Let's say someday you find yourself with your back against the wall. You know it is a certain sin that has you there and you know that if you continue, you will die. Let's say the thought occurs to you that you can be saved from this under the condition that you ask God to forgive you and stop doing what it is that is killing you.

Would you tell God that you'd rather die because you don't believe that He is just? Or would you accept His help?
 
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Galatea

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right.... we are not machines

a choice is do you want blueberry or strawberry jelly.

forcing someone is .... pay taxes or go to jail.
But that is still not 'forcing'. You can choose not to pay taxes. Regardless, when all is said and done, it is God's universe. I mean, you exist, and now you must decide.

I suppose you can call it being forced, if you want. I think it is kind of reassuring, because God had not overwhelmed us with multiple ways and options. He has kept it very elegant, binary. Everything or nothing, light or darkness, love or hate, mercy or justice, life or death, abundance or ruin, pleasure or pain, good or evil.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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I wonder this when I think of having another child. I dont know that the 'be fruitful and multiply' command is valid anymore since the fall.

This is what I was getting at in a (perhaps, slow) Socratic method!

Yes, the command to be fruitful and mutiply was given to Adam and Eve BEFORE they fell. The words were to be fruitful and multiply, and replinish the earth. Something happened to make the earth void, and without form (another discussion.) Our job was to fill this planet with righteous, holy entities... not 7,000,000,000 sinful, murderous, envious, deceitful, uncaring, ignorant, selfish... children.

He gave this command to Noah and his sons because, something happened (i.e. the world literally ended,) and they were the only "genetically"/generational perfect (genetically in tact) humans left. As per His character that doesn't change, He left a remnant, and told them to rebuild mankind. Even then, He didnt mean fill the world with billions of spiritual derelicts and morally inept entities - who just so happen to welcome every foul bird and spirit drifting in the spiritual plane waiting to possess and oppress anyone they choose.

We should know better; even the animals have a cap on their litters and offspring - dictated by nature.
 
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dc87

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.... How can he hold us eternally accountable when we never chose to be eternal? Again, how can the clay say to the potter, "Why did you make me like this?" (Romans 9:20). Paul is referencing Jeremiah 18, where God is telling him that Israel is the clay and he is the potter. .....

....... No, he did not ask you whether or not you wanted to be created, nor did he ask you if you would prefer eternal life or temporal. And I will say you will not find an answer from anyone on this forum, or anywhere else for that matter.....

I feel like these materialistic analogies fail because the clay is not eternal... and has nothing to gain or lose and can make no decisions. Im sure if the clay could, it would indeed ask that question.
.....
Well if were given the choice to exist like the mormons believe then that would indeed simplify the justification for our judgement.
 
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dc87

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Question:

Let's say someday you find yourself with your back against the wall. You know it is a certain sin that has you there and you know that if you continue, you will die. Let's say the thought occurs to you that you can be saved from this under the condition that you ask God to forgive you and stop doing what it is that is killing you.

Would you tell God that you'd rather die because you don't believe that He is just? Or would you accept His help?

accept His help of course?
 
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dc87

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But that is still not 'forcing'. You can choose not to pay taxes. Regardless, when all is said and done, it is God's universe. I mean, you exist, and now you must decide.

I suppose you can call it being forced, if you want. I think it is kind of reassuring, because God had not overwhelmed us with multiple ways and options. He has kept it very elegant, binary. Everything or nothing, light or darkness, love or hate, mercy or justice, life or death, abundance or ruin, pleasure or pain, good or evil.
if someone holds a gun to your head and says give me $5... are they forcing you to give them $5 or are they giving you a choice?
 
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Ygrene Imref

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The statement "I did not ask to be born" is ridiculous. I could say more but it would come across as harsh. At the very least it appeals to a certain disdain of reality, to selfish egotism. No sane person could use that as a "reason" for not having children, because it is not a reason, it is an appeal to childishness.

Wait a minute...

We just got through talking about how many people are pained asking this exact question - precisely because they had no choice. And, then some of these same people were told that, "you are here, you are now, you live, get over it and make a choice."

Perfectly fine.

However, I think it is asinine NOT to thoroughly think about the implications LIFE would have on your own offspring - including afterlife considerations respective to your beliefs. I would say it is PRUDENT to think about the wellbeing of your future child, and to at least have a plan about how to approach and cultivate your child's best chances for a life and afterlife before having them. Others take it a step further by asking, " Why do I want a child in THIS time, knowing THESE things about life and the afterlife: would my child want to be born into "this?" Would my child be able to stay strong and resist the powerful evil in the world - destroying his or her chances of being with the Creator?

Parenting is more than having children because the activity feels good, and then dealing with existential philosophy from the consequences of the birth of your child, and from what they bring up, on the fly as you parent.

That is reckless, and one of the reasons why people are highly confused about the purpose of their genesis - especially given the circumstances of this planet in the last 1500 years, frankly.

It isn't like they believe their child would save the world (like the Hebrews throuth prophecy,) or at least shouldnt; someone has already saved the world. So, the idea that we are having children for a better tomorrow - like we are biological factories of reproduction producing more bodies for the betterment of the STATE - is the real ludicrous situation. I would like to think most people fully think about these physical, metaphysical and spiritual implications of having a child; not that we breed them, and then tell them to toughen up and deal with life. Then, there IS some responsibility that falls on the parent.


The main reasons people do not have children are:
1. inability, i.e. the person is functionally sterile
2. realization that the person is not emotionally or mentally capable of raising children properly
3. selfishness, the unwillingness to spend resources and time on somebody else (this one is destroying Europe as we speak)

Bull.

I won't have children specifiAly because of social, cultural, ethnic and spiritual reasons. People actually think about the implications of procreation for long periods of time before making the decision to have a child. Of course people are selfish, emotionally unstable, or downright sterile; those are facts of life (part of the facts of life some of us think about before breeding,) so it is very easy to give the list you gave.

But, it is by no measure the exhaustive list of reasons why people choose not to have children - and, they aren't even in the top 30 reasons.

You could have said peoe choose not to have children out of fear (of murderers, rapists, pathological liars, abusers, racists, bigots, nukes, etc.) and you would have been less insulting, and closer to an actual "Top 15" list of reasons.

It is good you never had this existential dillema, however it makes you ignorant if the side of the argument that makes a well-reasoned argument for not having children - even those who question why persons continue to breed seemingly without thought further than what a five year plan demands.
 
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