Why are we accountable if we did not ask to be exist?

[Ygrene Imref]

The issue is about the prescience to think about what life would mean for YOUR offspring - if we want to keep it simple. Do we bring more children into a world we KNOW is malevolent, and absolutely evil - with the sensations in the physical and spiritual that (apparently) confirm this for us who are alive? Do we FORCE these children to be, knowing those implications, simply because we can, and we want to? What is the driving force that keeps us breeding, while we are presented with the reality of this world in all of its (un)glory? And, this is given the perspective that someone has already saved the world, so there is no need to procreate in the hopes of a Savior, or something, "saving" us.

It is understandable pre-Christ why people procreate to the degree they did, because they had a Savior to look forward to.

But, He Is here now; He has saved the world. What, then, makes one have a child knowing that that entity will automatically be under the curse of SIN, AND ITS CONSEQUENCES?

Even Enoch, when stewarded by hosts of heaven and upon seeing Adam, reviled Adam for the shame he brought onto the entire human race, and for continuing to procreate GIVEN the knowledge that all of us would be under that curse. This is Enoch, by the way - the only man besides Christ who made it the furthest in righteousness as a son of man.

And, that is another thing: Adam lost his title of son of God. We know what that implies. We have examples of twins - one evil and one good - and their life under this curse. We are expected to be able to think. Otherwise, perhaps we should be dictated by nature to determine when, and how many children we can have.

This philosophical discussion all the way from the OP seems to not be targeting persons who are alive now - it is about the (non)choice of existing at all, and the implications connected to the ones who bring that entity into existence.

 

[dc87]

.... This philosophical discussion all the way from the OP seems to not be targeting persons who are alive now - it is about the (non)choice of existing at all, and the implications connected to the ones who bring that entity into existence

Exactly. People seemed to think i was crazy when i said that children are not accountable to their parents but rather they are accountable to God and that the parents are the ones who answer for how they raise them. Sure they are accountable temporarily here for a few years until adults but thats unimportant and nothing that has any eternal effect. Its how they respond to God which is what matters and anyone who says 'questioning the reason for existence or bringing others into existence is absurd', well IMO it is THAT which is the actual reckless carnal mentality.

 

[least]

I feel like these materialistic analogies fail because the clay is not eternal... and has nothing to gain or lose and can make no decisions. Im sure if the clay could, it would indeed ask that question.
.....
Well if were given the choice to exist like the mormons believe then that would indeed simplify the justification for our judgement.

Well I can't argue against your feelings, best of luck!

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Exactly. People seemed to think i was crazy when i said that children are not accountable to their parents but rather they are accountable to God and that the parents are the ones who answer for how they raise them. Sure they are accountable temporarily here for a few years until adults but thats unimportant and nothing that has any eternal effect. Its how they respond to God which is what matters and anyone who says 'questioning the reason for existence or bringing others into existence is absurd', well IMO it is THAT which is the actual reckless carnal mentality.

I asked my mom similar questions, and not surprisingly, she asked her parents similar questions.

My grandmother told my mother - in response to the question of why people in abysmal conditions continue to bring children into the world - that, "sometimes that's all people have to do to pass the time..."

!

Seriously? Clearly, I don't subscribe to that mentality, and neither do my parents, ironically. But, it gives perspective on why we choose to ignore the state of the world and Co tinge to bring children here.

If we called this planet what it actually is - physic heaven trying to be hell - how much sense would it make to Co ti ue to have children on a territory that is desperaty trying to be all of the definitions of he'll our Creator has told us about - especially when He Himself has already sent someone who has saved this world.

This is especially after that Savior "upgraded" our responsibilities - as everything you spiritually align yourself with is as (de)meritituous as what you do physically (lusting = the actual act of adultery.)

 

[Nick714]

if someone holds a gun to your head and says give me $5... are they forcing you to give them $5 or are they giving you a choice?

i wouldnt compare Jesus to a guy puting a gun up to your head. he offers life and all things good and salvation as a free gift. its just that Jesus is the way the truth and the life and if we do not chose that than we are choosing a lie, death and misdirection. but either way its in our power to chose and with power comes responsibility. so please dont be unresponsive to what he gave us. i dont want you to go down that road where you are unable to make the choices you want because you have chosen a life that leads to bondage. freedom is everything and God wants us to have life abundantly.

 

[cuja1]

I asked my mom similar questions, and not surprisingly, she asked her parents similar questions.

My grandmother told my mother - in response to the question of why people in abysmal conditions continue to bring children into the world - that, "sometimes that's all people have to do to pass the time..."

!

Seriously? Clearly, I don't subscribe to that mentality, and neither do my parents, ironically. But, it gives perspective on why we choose to ignore the state of the world and Co tinge to bring children here.

If we called this planet what it actually is - physic heaven trying to be hell - how much sense would it make to Co ti ue to have children on a territory that is desperaty trying to be all of the definitions of he'll our Creator has told us about - especially when He Himself has already sent someone who has saved this world.

This is especially after that Savior "upgraded" our responsibilities - as everything you spiritually align yourself with is as (de)meritituous as what you do physically (lusting = the actual act of adultery.)

I think maybe the majority of the population haven't given it as much thought as you have.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

I think maybe the majority of the population haven't given it as much thought as you have.

Which, understandably, makes me look like an a-hole for the energy I have in the argument, possibly on to something, something normal, or something to be heralded.

I accept the absolute former, and reject the absolute latter.

It could also be possible that I think about this a lot because I don't have any children or partner (by choice,) so I may have "a lot of time on my hands." But, I am still relatively young, so I don't think it is anything novel, or fantastic.

 

[cuja1]

Which, understandably, makes me look like an a-hole for the energy I have in the argument, possibly on to something, something normal, or something to be heralded.

I accept the absolute former, and reject the absolute latter.

It could also be possible that I think about this a lot because I don't have any children or partner (by choice,) so I may have "a lot of time on my hands." But, I am still relatively young, so I don't think it is anything novel, or fantastic.

No, not an a-hole. Just someone searching for answers.

 

[grasping the after wind]

This is a frustration of mine. I'm not necessarily a non believer. But this is a topic anyone could ask so I ask it here.

I did not ask to be born. Why does God hold me accountable for anything?

He created me, gave me a spirit im supposed to make sure conforms to his destinity - otherwise im doomed. gee.... thanks :/ so gracious of You. Sometimes im like... can I go back to not existing.... no? k... thanks for nothing! (i say that sarcastically today but not always)

What am I not realizing?

I haven't read the majority of answers you got so if someone else has said this before oh well. Who told you God holds you accountable? He doesn't. He tells you what he wants you to be but he doesn't make you pay for not being that. Instead he takes all the responsibility upon himself and has paid the price Himself.

 

[chriscomplex]

He forces you to either go His way or go to Hell. You decide, not Him.

He forces you to choose, absolutely!

I meant He does not force you to choose Him. He lets you decide if you want Him and everything beautiful and wonderful or if you want your own way.

It is binary.

Either he forces you or not, however if I put my old Christian cap on I'd say:

Hell is a formality, the world was perfect right? So no one was intended to go to hell. After the Angel's fell, then mankind, God was forced unto a situation where he had to deal with a corrupt world. Since no one would have gone to hell in the first place, it is mankind's fault for turning away from God in the garden of Eden. Now we are all fallen like them, but God can't undo what he set in motion because he'd be undoing himself. So he sent his son for us to show us the way back home, and keep us from hell (A place that was ment only for the fallen Angel's)

 

[Galatea]

Either he forces you or not, however if I put my old Christian cap on I'd say:

Hell is a formality, the world was perfect right? So no one was intended to go to hell. After the Angel's fell, then mankind, God was forced unto a situation where he had to deal with a corrupt world. Since no one would have gone to hell in the first place, it is mankind's fault for turning away from God in the garden of Eden. Now we are all fallen like them, but God can't undo what he set in motion because he'd be undoing himself. So he sent his son for us to show us the way back home, and keep us from hell (A place that was ment only for the fallen Angel's)

I presented my case badly. He forces us to choose, true. But He does not force us to choose Himself.

I agree with your post, here. It is what I believe the Bible says.

 

[chriscomplex]

I presented my case badly. He forces us to choose, true. But He does not force us to choose Himself.

I agree with your post, here. It is what I believe the Bible says.

Well, there was never a choice in the first place. In a perfect world everyone would know God, but a choice exists now because the fall of mankind created an unknown variable.

 

[Galatea]

Wait a minute...

We just got through talking about how many people are pained asking this exact question - precisely because they had no choice. And, then some of these same people were told that, "you are here, you are now, you live, get over it and make a choice."

Perfectly fine.

However, I think it is asinine NOT to thoroughly think about the implications LIFE would have on your own offspring - including afterlife considerations respective to your beliefs. I would say it is PRUDENT to think about the wellbeing of your future child, and to at least have a plan about how to approach and cultivate your child's best chances for a life and afterlife before having them. Others take it a step further by asking, " Why do I want a child in THIS time, knowing THESE things about life and the afterlife: would my child want to be born into "this?" Would my child be able to stay strong and resist the powerful evil in the world - destroying his or her chances of being with the Creator?

Parenting is more than having children because the activity feels good, and then dealing with existential philosophy from the consequences of the birth of your child, and from what they bring up, on the fly as you parent.

That is reckless, and one of the reasons why people are highly confused about the purpose of their genesis - especially given the circumstances of this planet in the last 1500 years, frankly.

It isn't like they believe their child would save the world (like the Hebrews throuth prophecy,) or at least shouldnt; someone has already saved the world. So, the idea that we are having children for a better tomorrow - like we are biological factories of reproduction producing more bodies for the betterment of the STATE - is the real ludicrous situation. I would like to think most people fully think about these physical, metaphysical and spiritual implications of having a child; not that we breed them, and then tell them to toughen up and deal with life. Then, there IS some responsibility that falls on the parent.




Bull.

I won't have children specifiAly because of social, cultural, ethnic and spiritual reasons. People actually think about the implications of procreation for long periods of time before making the decision to have a child. Of course people are selfish, emotionally unstable, or downright sterile; those are facts of life (part of the facts of life some of us think about before breeding,) so it is very easy to give the list you gave.

But, it is by no measure the exhaustive list of reasons why people choose not to have children - and, they aren't even in the top 30 reasons.

You could have said peoe choose not to have children out of fear (of murderers, rapists, pathological liars, abusers, racists, bigots, nukes, etc.) and you would have been less insulting, and closer to an actual "Top 15" list of reasons.

It is good you never had this existential dillema, however it makes you ignorant if the side of the argument that makes a well-reasoned argument for not having children - even those who question why persons continue to breed seemingly without thought further than what a five year plan demands.

Why do Christians have children? Because God is still working and their children can still be saved.

Never being born is worse than being born, accepting Christ as Savior and going to Heaven.

Would you deny your hypothetical children an opportunity to go to Heaven?

There is no guarantee that Christians' children will be saved and go to Heaven. This is true, and having children should not be taken lightly. Parents are responsible for raising children in "the nurture and admonition of the Lord" and to "provoke not your sons to wrath". This is a lifelong responsibility, to be a good witness to your children.

The verse "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart" comes true very often. John Newton was a wretch, he probably committed every sin in the Bible. But his mother was a Christian, and one day, he was saved and stopped being a slave trader and became a minister.

This is why Christians have children, the hope of their salvation is ever present.

 

[Galatea]

Well, there was never a choice in the first place. In a perfect world everyone would know God, but a choice exists now because the fall of mankind created an unknown variable.

I would agree with everything you write here- except "unknown" variable. God knew what was going to happen. The Lord was "crucified from the foundations of the Earth". Nothing takes God by surprise.

 

[chriscomplex]

Why do Christians have children? Because God is still working and their children can still be saved.

Never being born is worse than being born, accepting Christ as Savior and going to Heaven.

Would you deny your hypothetical children an opportunity to go to Heaven?

There is no guarantee that Christians' children will be saved and go to Heaven. This is true, and having children should not be taken lightly. Parents are responsible for raising children in "the nurture and admonition of the Lord" and to "provoke not your sons to wrath". This is a lifelong responsibility, to be a good witness to your children.

The verse "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart" comes true very often. John Newton was a wretch, he probably committed every sin in the Bible. But his mother was a Christian, and one day, he was saved and stopped being a slave trader and became a minister.

This is why Christians have children, the hope of their salvation is ever present.

Hallelujah!

Whoops, I left my Christian cap on.

 

[Galatea]

Hallelujah!

Whoops, I left my Christian cap on.

I would argue that if you were ever saved in the first place, you still have your Christian cap on, it is permanently sealed. Even if you try to take it off. However, that is a different discussion for another thread and I do not wish to derail the op.

 

[chriscomplex]

I would agree with everything you write here- except "unknown" variable. God knew what was going to happen. The Lord was "crucified from the foundations of the Earth". Nothing takes God by surprise.

Naturally.

 

[chriscomplex]

I would argue that if you were ever saved in the first place, you still have your Christian cap on, it is permanently sealed. Even if you try to take it off. However, that is a different discussion for another thread and I do not wish to derail the op.

Yes, do that.

 

[Galatea]

Yes, do that.

No, I am in a bad habit of derailing threads as it is.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Why do Christians have children? Because God is still working and their children can still be saved.

This is still a conditional statement for which I, personally, am not willing to thrust upon my children.

They CAN also be spiritual derelicts despite my instruction.

Never being born is worse than being born, accepting Christ as Savior and going to Heaven.

That is a human romanticism of the relationship between God and humans. "It is better to love and lost the to never loved at all" is a way humans try to rationalise fantastical circumstance. You cannot confirm that is better to be alive than not exist at all.

Would you deny your hypothetical children an opportunity to go to Heaven?

Nope, but I know my hypothetical children will be born "sons and daughters of man," and that is a curse. So, I am not going to bound my children to the curse of being born sons of daughters of men.

There is no guarantee that Christians' children will be saved and go to Heaven. This is true, and having children should not be taken lightly. Parents are responsible for raising children in "the nurture and admonition of the Lord" and to "provoke not your sons to wrath". This is a lifelong responsibility, to be a good witness to your children.

The verse "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart" comes true very often. John Newton was a wretch, he probably committed every sin in the Bible. But his mother was a Christian, and one day, he was saved and stopped being a slave trader and became a minister.

Ok, so? The issue of choice of being is still existent - as well as the implications.

This is why Christians have children, the hope of their salvation is ever present.

Hope... is one of the most devestating human romanticism ever thought of.

Even in human 'lore, people still don't realize how incredibly incredibly dangerous it was that Pandora let it escape - closing the box too late.

It is a falsehood, just as evil as everything else that came out of that box - except if it is in the Most High God.