Why are there religious people?

[ToddNotTodd]

Some parents do try to shove their religion down their kids' throats, unfortunately.
We see the results of that every day, don't we? So many of the angry young atheists I have spoken with are angry for this very reason. Their atheism seems to be more of a rebellion against that early "indoctrination" than anything else.

Most religious parents, however, while they do teach their kids what they believe, leave it to the kid to decide for himself. We do understand that forced faith is not real faith at all. We expose him to our faith, trusting him to our God...and most of the time, the kid chooses God.
I have seven kids, and seventeen grandkids, and every single one of them is a Christian. I also have three great grandkids, and another "on the way". It's a little early to tell yet...although one little boy does insist that his momma hear his prayers at bedtime. Of course, this is probably a ploy to get to stay up later...

What about atheist parents? Do atheist parents trust their kids to decide for themselves, or do they raise their children to follow their...uh...non-religion?
Sorry, I don't have a better term.

I recently had a series of discussions with my young son regarding belief, evidence, fact, fantasy, etc. After much introspection, both Santa and God were abandoned. I wasn't pushing either way.

 

[Cearbhall]

Many intellectuals of yesteryear used to predict that as western culture became more educated and more intelligent that religion would die off - especially Christianity.

Those who said it would die off completely were wrong, obviously, but it's been dying off steadily in the most developed nations for decades. I expect that the trend will continue. I'm interested to see how low the percentage gets in countries such as the UK and the US before it plateaus, or whether immigration from developing countries (with higher religiosity) will start to outpace the decline.

What data are you looking at that suggests otherwise?

 

[Colter]

Some of the people who leave the social institution of the church aren't leaving faith per say, just the weekly ritual. They may still have faith. Also, young people today find spirituality more appealing than doctrine. In their hearts they just don't believe some of what they are hearing from religion.

I DESPISED church as a kid! I don't go as an adult, however I do find spiritual fellowship in and among the 12 step programs.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Some parents do try to shove their religion down their kids' throats, unfortunately.

Mmm. Yes. Accurate.

We see the results of that every day, don't we?

I doubt that.

So many of the angry young atheists I have spoken with are angry for this very reason. Their atheism seems to be more of a rebellion against that early "indoctrination" than anything else.

Accurate. I went through my cooling off period. I was a proud new atheist announcing my independence. It was me finally snapping my chains so to speak. It wasn't rebelling against my indoctrination but I did try to make sure people were "aware" and I wanted any confrontation handled and kaputzed early.

Most religious parents, however, while they do teach their kids what they believe, leave it to the kid to decide for himself.

I dunno. I've heard some horror stories from the Bible belt. But I can't speak for most.

We do understand that forced faith is not real faith at all.

We expose him to our faith, trusting him to our God...and most of the time, the kid chooses God.

I don't disagree with this assessment. But Children who aren't presented with any knowledge of the contrary are generally gonna choose the affirmative.

What about atheist parents? Do atheist parents trust their kids to decide for themselves, or do they raise their children to follow their...uh...non-religion?

I don't know how this would go I grew up with a Christian mom and Deist dad so, yea. I'd think they just wouldn't bring religion up and would teach their children secular values. When it comes time to actually discuss religions it'd probably be like a mythology class. Kids shouldn't be made to follow a religion or lack of.

If I have a kid I'd tell him straight about all the gods. All fictional. And I'd explain to him that every society before us has also had a majority that believed in a religion and that doesn't make them more real and we're nothing more than the modern day Odinian or Greek society in that regard.

My brother is a Deist and my sister in-law I don't really know but I think she's non religious either. So I'll see how they handle it with my niece.

 

[Davian]

April 28, 2015 was 30 years of continuous sobriety and clean from drugs for me by depending on what Atheist call "the God delusion."

Good for you. I have stayed sober and avoided recreational drugs for my whole life, no delusions required.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Good for you. I have stayed sober and avoided recreational drugs for my whole life, no delusions required.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Every kid sooner or later gets to a time when he starts trying to find his own identity, separate from his parents. It can be a very trying time for all involved.
And yes...often it is rebellion. The kid begins to question his faith...it is natural and right that he should do so. But the parents panic, and redouble their efforts to keep their precious progeny on the "straight and narrow". The kid becomes more and more frustrated...yeah. I've met a great many atheists who tell a similar tale. They didn't walk away so much as they were pushed away by their well meaning family. Most of these people do not even know the "doctrines" they can't find a reason to believe. And to be fair, neither do most of the "Christians" they have been exposed to, who had their belief spoon fed to them from behind a pulpit.
Most of the time this could all have been avoided if the parents had bothered to actually read their Bible and make themselves ready to sit down and explore their childrens' questions with them.
Kids know a phony when they see one....



I didn't think so. Young yet, aren't you?

What sort of special powers do you have as a christian mystic? I meant that as a serious question... I have no idea what a christian mystic is.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You are assuming that people are honest, you yourself pointed out above that it's againt the forum rules to promote atheism so I'm beginning to understand why the Atheist here are so defensive about calling the promotion of Atheism a movment, belief or form of doctrine.

The New Atheism has no problem being honest about what they are doing.

"New Atheism is a social and political movement in favour of atheism and secularism promoted by a collection of modern atheist writers who have advocated the view that "religion should not simply be tolerated but should be countered, criticized, and exposed by rational argument"​

New Atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From your link...

"In a 2010 column entitled Why I Don't Believe in the New Atheism, Tom Flynn contends that what has been called "New Atheism" is neither a movement nor new, and that what was new was the publication of atheist material by big-name publishers, read by millions, and appearing on best-seller lists.[4]"

I happen to agree with Tom Flynn, there is no "New Atheism". It's a term coined by christians for christians who suddenly find themselves trying to defend their beliefs from logic and rationality where they'd never had to before. I imagine that the advent of the internet age must've felt like the Tet Offensive to christians. Suddenly, atheists were everywhere... in your neighborhood, in your schools, at work, and probably even in your church. Christians who had spent their whole lives never having to justify their beliefs were suddenly being challenged whenever they brought them up.

To the atheists though, there was nothing new about it. The only difference for us is that upon realizing just how many of us there really are...we didn't need to hide anymore. No more pretending to believe just to avoid any unpleasantness at the work-party. No more making up excuses to turn down offers of joining friends at church on Sunday. No more faking it when someone bows their head and says "grace" before dinner.

I've never met a New Atheist, nor have I heard of anyone claiming to be one. There's no New Atheism newsletter, meeting place, leaders, beliefs (except for the one that's universal amongst atheists), rituals, or agenda. At least there's none that I know of and none that Colter has offered as proof of the group's existence.

 

[Cearbhall]

Some parents do try to shove their religion down their kids' throats, unfortunately.
We see the results of that every day, don't we? So many of the angry young atheists I have spoken with are angry for this very reason. Their atheism seems to be more of a rebellion against that early "indoctrination" than anything else.

Yes, and it's very sad. I was relatively lucky. I was raised Catholic and was expected by my parents to stick with it for life, but my parents are also reasonable people who knew when to stop pushing. My own atheism is therefore not the rebellious sort. I had a gradual and non-traumatic journey from Catholicism to agnostic atheism as I sought out information on my own. It was a natural progression, and I think that all people should be allowed to govern their own spiritual journeys in this way.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I get that term from the concept of what sin is from the UB:

Forgiveness of Sin​

"Ancient man only attained consciousness of favor with God through sacrifice. Modern man must develop new techniques of achieving the self-consciousness of salvation. The consciousness of sin persists in the mortal mind, but the thought patterns of salvation therefrom have become outworn and antiquated. The reality of the spiritual need persists, but intellectual progress has destroyed the olden ways of securing peace and consolation for mind and soul.

Sin must be redefined as deliberate disloyalty to Deity. There are degrees of disloyalty: the partial loyalty of indecision; the divided loyalty of confliction; the dying loyalty of indifference; and the death of loyalty exhibited in devotion to godless ideals.

The sense or feeling of guilt is the consciousness of the violation of the mores; it is not necessarily sin. There is no real sin in the absence of conscious disloyalty to Deity.

The possibility of the recognition of the sense of guilt is a badge of transcendent distinction for mankind. It does not mark man as mean but rather sets him apart as a creature of potential greatness and ever-ascending glory. Such a sense of unworthiness is the initial stimulus that should lead quickly and surely to those faith conquests which translate the mortal mind to the superb levels of moral nobility, cosmic insight, and spiritual living; thus are all the meanings of human existence changed from the temporal to the eternal, and all values are elevated from the human to the divine.

The confession of sin is a manful repudiation of disloyalty, but it in no wise mitigates the time-space consequences of such disloyalty. But confession — sincere recognition of the nature of sin — is essential to religious growth and spiritual progress.

The forgiveness of sin by Deity is the renewal of loyalty relations following a period of the human consciousness of the lapse of such relations as the consequence of conscious rebellion. The forgiveness does not have to be sought, only received as the consciousness of re-establishment of loyalty relations between the creature and the Creator. And all the loyal sons of God are happy, service-loving, and ever-progressive in the Paradise ascent. UB 1955
​

You're aware that the Urantia Book was long ago shown to be a hoax, right?

 

[Colter]

You're aware that the Urantia Book was long ago shown to be a hoax, right?

No, that's not true. You make the same mistake bible worshipers make, believe the claim rather than consider the content. Besides, it has fantastic spiritual and philosophical insights regardless of attempts to debunk it.

 

[bhsmte]

No, that's not true. You make the same mistake bible worshipers make, believe the claim rather than consider the content. Besides, it has fantastic spiritual and philosophical insights regardless of attempts to debunk it.

Wouldn't the content, be the same as the claim?

 

[TheBarrd]

Mmm. Yes. Accurate.



I doubt that.



Accurate. I went through my cooling off period. I was a proud new atheist announcing my independence. It was me finally snapping my chains so to speak. It wasn't rebelling against my indoctrination but I did try to make sure people were "aware" and I wanted any confrontation handled and kaputzed early.



I dunno. I've heard some horror stories from the Bible belt. But I can't speak for most.







I don't disagree with this assessment. But Children who aren't presented with any knowledge of the contrary are generally gonna choose the affirmative.



I don't know how this would go I grew up with a Christian mom and Deist dad so, yea. I'd think they just wouldn't bring religion up and would teach their children secular values. When it comes time to actually discuss religions it'd probably be like a mythology class. Kids shouldn't be made to follow a religion or lack of.

If I have a kid I'd tell him straight about all the gods. All fictional. And I'd explain to him that every society before us has also had a majority that believed in a religion and that doesn't make them more real and we're nothing more than the modern day Odinian or Greek society in that regard.

My brother is a Deist and my sister in-law I don't really know but I think she's non religious either. So I'll see how they handle it with my niece.

See, you want to insert your opinion. Of course, that is your prerogative as a parent.
I agree, kids should not be made to accept their parents' views. However, as a parent, you do have a right to present your views to your child, and trust him to choose for himself.

Oh, btw, I live in the Bible belt. I've probably heard more horror stories than you have.
That makes the abusive parents wrong.
It doesn't make the faith wrong.

 

[bhsmte]

See, you want to insert your opinion. Of course, that is your prerogative as a parent.
I agree, kids should not be made to accept their parents' views. However, as a parent, you do have a right to present your views to your child, and trust him to choose for himself.

Oh, btw, I live in the Bible belt. I've probably heard more horror stories than you have.
That makes the abusive parents wrong.
It doesn't make the faith wrong.

IMO, for any faith to be meaningful to a person and produce positive results for them, it has to be a faith they have reconciled on their own and in their own mind.

Nothing wrong with parents bringing their kids up with a certain faith and there is nothing wrong with recognizing; eventually each person has to decide on their own, whether they can reconcile that faith in their own mind.

 

[quatona]

Well, the plain atheist here that don't see themselves as promoting godless ideals as something that they believe, yes. The so called "New Atheist" aren't pretending to be neutral, they are publically, actively battling the value and values of religion.

So whenever you say "atheism" you silently refer to "New Atheism" in particular?

 

[GrimKingGrim]

See, you want to insert your opinion. Of course, that is your prerogative as a parent.

Since when is mythology class an opinion? It's telling the truth. I'd rather my kid know that gods are right on the same level as Lucky the leprechaun, Santa, Easter Bunny, and Barney than go around having them bend reality in their head to shape around the belief of a magic sky wizard.

I agree, kids should not be made to accept their parents' views. However, as a parent, you do have a right to present your views to your child, and trust him to choose for himself.

And I will. I will present ALL OF THE CASES IN HISTORY. So it's not just a 50/50 coin flip and the decision is much much easier.

Rather than pressure my kid into believe in Yahweh or reality, I'll give them Yahweh, Olodumare, Odin, The Fates, Nessie, Puff the magic Dragon, Santa, etc. And then when they're done being confused and ask "what's the difference?" I'll reply "none"

Oh, btw, I live in the Bible belt. I've probably heard more horror stories than you have.

I bet.

That makes the abusive parents wrong.

Didn't comment on that.

It doesn't make the faith wrong.

You're right about that. There's plenty other things that make it wrong.

 

[bhsmte]

It doesn't make the faith wrong.

It would appear, faith beliefs are a very personal thing and are defined based on each person's personal perceptions and personal experiences.

The right faith for you, may not be the right faith for someone else. Could be why, there are so many denominations of Christianity and other religions in the world.

 

[Colter]

So whenever you say "atheism" you silently refer to "New Atheism" in particular?

The more I look into this term "New Atheist" the more it seems to be a refernece to the current pop atheist books and notoriety like Dawkins. While some may be more aggressive, it doesn't appear to be a movement apart from just plain atheism.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

The more I look into this term "New Atheist" the more it seems to be a refernece to the current pop atheist books and notoriety like Dawkins. While some may be more aggressive, it doesn't appear to be a mo ment depart from just plain atheism.

It's the exact same as classic atheism.

 

[TheBarrd]

Since when is mythology class an opinion? It's telling the truth. I'd rather my kid know that gods are right on the same level as Lucky the leprechaun, Santa, Easter Bunny, and Barney than go around having them bend reality in their head to shape around the belief of a magic sky wizard.

And I will. I will present ALL OF THE CASES IN HISTORY. So it's not just a 50/50 coin flip and the decision is much much easier.

Rather than pressure my kid into believe in Yahweh or reality, I'll give them Yahweh, Olodumare, Odin, The Fates, etc. And then when they're done being confused and ask "what's the difference?" I'll reply "none"

"Magic sky wizard"? "Lucky the leprechaun"? What, no pink unicorns? I really like the pink unicorns.

I do sense a bit of hostility here.
Of course, there is that enchanting screen name "GrimKingGrim". And the stunning avatar. *brrrr*
I suspect you've walked through a few storms...
So have I. And I have questioned my faith, more than once. Almost lost it a few times...
Who is "Olodumare"? I don't recall hearing about him befor.
You have forgotten those other gods...Mithras is a favorite of mine. So sexy with his hat, facing the famous bull...
And then there is the Wiccan "goddess". I kinda like her, too.
And no mythology class would be complete without the Greek and Roman pantheon of gods and goddesses. Such fascinating stories!
Why leave out so many fascinating stories?

Will you tell your kid that, ever since there have been men advanced enough to worship, there has been some form of religion?
Will you point out the good things religion has given the world...like hospitals, homeless shelters, food banks, orphanages, etc?

There truly are more than one side to this story. Do you have the courage to present your kid with all of them?

I bet.

I don't confuse the followers with the LEADER.
Which is what you are doing.

Didn't comment on that.

I noticed.

You're right about

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