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Featured Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by DM25, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <Clem>...There we see God's reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the "divine will":
    “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will.<ende>
    .....This must mean that in every case where ἵνα/ina occurs in the NT "purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows." Or does it?
    .....Note this comment says "in many cases." It does not say "in all cases" and it does not say "in most cases."
    .....Were one to actually read the full definition of ἵνα/ina in BDAG they would find that the correct interpretation of "ina" is given in virtually every occurrence.
    .....Under the comment, "In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, etc." BDAG lists only 31 vss out of 626 to which it applies, Lk 11:50; J 4:36; 12:40; 19:28, Ro 3:19; 5:20; 7:13; 8:17; 11:31f, Mt 1:22; 2:15; 4:14; 12:17; 21:4; 26:56; J 12:38; 17:12; 19:24, 36, Mk 4:12, Lk 8:10, Rv 22:14, 4:13, J 12:7, Gal 1:11, 2 Cor 2:4, Ac 19:4, Ro 11:31. 1 Cor 7:29, Gal 2:10, Col 4:16.
     
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't see anyone contesting that some things are conditional.

    12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
     
  3. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Then why do you not believe the world will be saved as it was Gods plan in sending Jesus?
    If the world is not saved then it would be more then a mite short it would be a catastrophe of epic proportions.

    Read the parable of the lost coin and the lost sheep if they remain lost it is the one who lost them that suffers. Can you in all honesty say God will suffer eternally for His lack of finding them?
     
  4. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Amen brother. Not many seem to take these things into consideration
     
  5. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    My dear brother Pneuma: It amazes me after following the Master for over 60 years the level of dumb within me and vast segments of the churchianity of today. We fall short in our grasp of Him, but His mighty Plan has been approved within Himself, with consultation with none other. That Plan He cherishes! As surely as no morsel of fish or bread was lost from the miracle feeding of thousands, He loses NOTHING!
     
  6. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    it amazes me that so many believe He who cannot fail will indeed fail to do what He planned to do from before the foundations of the world.
     
  7. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The point of “salvation” is not going to heaven, it is being a part of the kingdom of God ON EARTH while you live in your earthly body.

    His Plan from start to finish

    "You filled your lungs with polluted unbelief, and then exhaled disobedience.

    We all did it, all of us doing what we felt like doing, when we felt like doing it, all of us in the same boat. It's a wonder God didn't lose his temper and do away with the whole lot of us.

    Instead, immense in mercy and with an incredible love, he embraced us. He took our sin-dead lives and made us alive in Christ.

    He did all this on his own, with no help from us!

    Then he picked us up and set us down in highest heaven in company with Jesus, our Messiah.

    Now God has us where he wants us, with all the time in this world and the next to shower grace and kindness upon us in Christ Jesus.

    Saving is all his idea, and all his work.

    All we do is trust him enough to let him do it.

    It's God's gift from start to finish!

    We don't play the major role. If we did, we'd probably go around bragging that we'd done the whole thing!

    No, we neither make nor save ourselves.

    God does both the making and saving. He creates each of us by Christ Jesus to join him in the work he does, the good work he has gotten ready for us to do, work we had better be doing."
     
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    For the unwary who might be swayed by the reference to the UR out-of-context proof text. Lamentations 3:31.
    Lam 3:22-33
    (22) It is of the LORD'S mercies that we [God's people Israel] are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
    (23) They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.
    (24) The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him.
    "The Lord is MY portion,"my portion," "I will hope in Him" NOT all mankind.
    (25) The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.
    (26) It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.
    The writer of Lamentations said "The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeks him." The converse of that is "The lord is not good to those who do not seek Him" and "not good to the soul that does not seek Him."
    The writer of Lamentations said "
    It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD." The converse of that is "It is NOT good that a man should NOT hope and NOT quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD."
    (27) It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.
    (28) He sitteth alone and keepeth silence, because he hath borne it upon him.
    (29) He putteth his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
    (30) He giveth his cheek to him that smiteth him: he is filled full with reproach.
    (31) For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
    (32) But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
    (33) For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
    First who does "the children of men" refer to? Did the Jews understand that to mean all mankind?
    Jewish Encyclopedia-Gentiles
    With regard to the text "This is the law when a man dieth in a tent" (Num. xix. 14), they held that only Israelites are men, quoting the prophet, "Ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men" (Ezek. xxxiv. 31); Gentiles they classed not as men but as barbarians (B. M. 108b).
    GENTILE - JewishEncyclopedia.com
    Throughout Lamentations the writer is talking about the fate of God's people Israel, their fate because they had disobeyed and turned away from the Lord. Does the writer suddenly in vs. 31 start talking about all mankind? Did any non-Jews read Lamentations at or near the time of Jeremiah?
    Lam 3:56-57
    (56) Thou heardest my voice; hide not Thine ear at my sighing, at my cry.
    Lam 3:57
    (57) Thou drewest near in the day that I called upon Thee; Thou saidst: 'Fear not.'
    The writer is praying to God about his problems not all mankind. God is not telling all mankind to “fear not.”
    Lam 3:62-66
    (62) The lips of those that rose up against me, and their muttering against me all the day.
    (63) Behold Thou their sitting down, and their rising up; I am their song.
    (64) Thou wilt render unto them a recompense, O LORD, according to the work of their hands.
    (65) Thou wilt give them hardness of heart, Thy curse unto them.
    (66) Thou wilt pursue them in anger, and destroy them from under the heavens of the LORD.
    These 5 verses say what happens to “them,” Israel’s enemies. If the writer was saying in Lam 3:31 the Lord will not cast off all mankind for ever, how could he say that God would pursue “’them’ and destroy ‘them’ from under the heavens [plural] of God,” vs. 3:66? Was the writer of Lamentations stupid did he forget what he wrote in 3:31?
    …..Is there anything in Lamentations, or the entire OT, that would make the writer or any Israelite, at the time, reading Lamentations think that God was going to save all mankind after death?

    Lam 4:16
    (16) The anger of the LORD hath divided them; He will no more regard them; they respected not the persons of the priests, they were not gracious unto the elders.
    Does “no more regard them” mean “in the sweet by and by I will regard them again?” Is there anything in Lamentations or the entire OT that would make the writer or any Israelite reading Lamentations, at the time, think that God was going to save all mankind after death?


     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION – ADLAI LOUDY

    “The crowning glory of the ‘good news’ or evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ which Paul was granted the grace to bring to the ‘gentiles’ or nations, is the revelation that He will reconcile all to God.

    What a marvelous outcome of God’s purpose! What a wonderful Christ Who can accomplish such a complete and glorious reconciliation! All creatures, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, reconciled in perfect peace to the great love of God through the Son of His love.

    More of these untraceable honors and glories of Christ which Paul was granted the grace to reveal, could be pointed out with delight, but these will suffice to increase our faith, enrich our joy and brighten our expectation ‘in Him in Whom our lot was cast also,’ Christ Jesus our Lord, Life, and Head!

    Untitled

    God is the ta panta of the all!

    Our God is the All of the all!
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Irrelevant. The subject there in chapter 1 is not the subject in chapter 3 here:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    Stating the obvious. Again irrelevant. Chapter 1 does not tell us what is revealed in chapter 3.

    (25) The LORD is good unto them that wait for Him

    Does v.25a apply to Israelites only or anyone of any nation, i.e. all mankind? Or these:

    26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

    27It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.


    See above re vs. 25-27 and why do you ignore the immediately following context and rest of the author's continuing thought:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    When you see the word "for" look & see what it is there for.

    Why do you ignore all these verses:

    34To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth,

    35To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High,

    36To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not.

    Does "the earth" (v.34) mean Israel alone?

    37Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?

    38Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

    39Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?

    Irrelevant in light of my comments above and the more immediate contexts of 3:31.

    Obviously to destroy does not require casting off forever. What is the problem in understanding the easy harmonization of 3:31-33 with 3:62-66? From "under the heavens" is a way of saying - from the earth or from this life. It says nothing about postmortem consequences or final destiny.

    No, you just don't seem to see how 3:31-33 & 3:62-66 easily harmonize.

    What does he say:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    Does it get any plainer than that?

    As translated by NIV & NET, two of your most trusted versions, it says only what is, not how long it will be into the future:

    16 The LORD himself has scattered them; he no longer watches over them. The priests are shown no honor, the elders no favor. (NIV)

    16 The LORD himself has scattered them; he no longer watches over them. They did not honor the priests; they did not show favor to the elders. (NET)

    16 The face of Jehovah hath divided them, He doth not add to behold them, The face of priests they have not lifted up, Elders they have not favoured. (YLT)

    16 The face of Yahweh has made them split up; He shall not continue to look upon them; They have not respected the priests; they have not favored the elders. (CLV)

    16 he shall not proceed to look upon them
    Lamentations 4 O how the gold shall be darkened, and the good silver changed; holy stones were discharged at the top of all the streets,

    So it also is perfectly harmonious with:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Actually i pointed out all the verses you ignored & still do.

    The LXX omits "are men", as do two of your most trusted versions, the NIV & NET, etc. Perhaps you should listen to them instead of the silly racist opinions of those whom Scripture says their minds are blinded (2 Cor.4:4; 1 Cor.2:12-16). Is God a racist? Are His inspired Scriptures?

    The opinions of Scripture by Christ mocking anti-Christian racist Jews which twist & reject the Word of God (the Scriptures) & replace them with the traditions of the Pharisees are to be rejected.

    Mk.7:13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.

    A single Jewish opinion of uncertain date is not inspired Scripture. Inspired Scripture is God breathed & relates God's opinions which are always true. Is it God's opinion that non Jews are not men?

    "Now, that neither you nor any else mistake the allegory, note, saith God, this flock of my pasture are not sheep literally, but they are men..." [Matthew Poole's Commentary]

    "And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men,.... This is observed, to show that all that had been said in this chapter concerning sheep, and a flock of sheep, was to be understood, not in a literal sense, but in a figurative one, of such as were rational and spiritual persons; a set of men..." [Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible]

    Ezekiel 34:31 Commentaries: "As for you, My sheep, the sheep of My pasture, you are men, and I am your God," declares the Lord GOD.

    Nothing in Ezek.34:31 says only Jews are men & non Jews are non human. A Jewish interpretation that non Jews are non humans is irrelevant, uninspired and anti-scriptural.

    This translation of the LXX says: "he shall not proceed to look upon them":
    Lamentations 4 O how the gold shall be darkened, and the good silver changed; holy stones were discharged at the top of all the streets,

    Such does not mean "he shall never look upon them again". So there is no contradiction between Lam.4:16 and 3:31-33:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    The highly acclaimed Liddell-Scott Greek lexicon states:

    "in LXX and NT, continue or repeat an action":
    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, προστίθημι

    If someone says "I will not continue to sleep" does that mean they will never sleep again? No.

    Which applied to Lam.4:16 gives this alternate translation:

    "he shall not **continue** to look upon them"

    IOW He will stop looking upon them. But it does not reveal how long He shall do so. While Lam.3:31-33 KJV indicates it will not be forever:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    "Lit:"place/set-toward", hence add/proceed-onward":
    Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - προστίθημι - to add (v.)

    "I will not proceed to sleep".

    So the LXX does not deny the plain irrefutable statement of:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…


    Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. (Jer.10:11)

    "He looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens" (Job 28:24)

    “There is a time for everything,
    and a season for every activity under the heavens:
    a time to be born and a time to die,
    a time to plant and a time to uproot,
    a time to kill and a time to heal,
    a time to tear down and a time to build,
    a time to weep and a time to laugh,
    a time to mourn and a time to dance,
    a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
    a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
    a time to search and a time to give up,
    a time to keep and a time to throw away,
    a time to tear and a time to mend,
    a time to be silent and a time to speak,
    a time to love and a time to hate,
    a time for war and a time for peace.”

    "God offers much wisdom in the saying, “There is a time for everything, / and a season for every activity under the heavens.” God is sovereign. Our activity in this world is meaningful as we rely on His wisdom, His timing, and His goodness."
    What does it mean that there is a proper time for everything (Ecclesiastes 3:1–8)?


    Obviously to destroy does not require casting off forever. What is the problem in understanding the easy harmonization of 3:31-33 with 3:62-66? From "under the heavens" is a way of saying - from the earth or from this life. It says nothing about postmortem consequences or final destiny.

    The heavens in "under the heavens" will pass away & there will be a new universe. The destroyed bodies will live again when they are un-destroyed in resurrection. Their souls continue to exist & live when their bodies are destroyed. Nothing is said in Lam.3:62-66 of what will become of them in the new heavens & new earth. Though 3:31-33 says:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
     
  12. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The same empty, meaningless rhetoric which does not directly address anything in my post and certainly does not refute anything I quoted. You reject the Jewish Encyclopedia, LXX and any credible sources which totally destroys UR and quote anonymous online blogs like Gerry Beauchamin, who has zero qualifications in any relevant field. He taught Sunday school and read a lot of books.
    Your unsupported opinion what the Hebrew word translated "destroy" "really" means is meaningless, just UR rhetoric.
    You ignored the verses I specifically addressed and ask about some other verses without even trying to explain what relevance you think they might have.
    You repeatedly saying this or that is "harmonious" with something else is meaningless unless you explain what you mean.
    Explain what you mean by the subjects of Lam 1 and 3 are different? The theme running throughout the book of Lamentations is God's punishing Israel for their sins and rejecting Him.

    Lam 1:8-9
    (8) Jerusalem hath grievously sinned, therefore she is become as one unclean; all that honoured her despise her, because they have seen her nakedness; she herself also sigheth, and turneth backward.
    (9) Her filthiness was in her skirts, she was not mindful of her end; therefore is she come down wonderfully, she hath no comforter. 'Behold, O LORD, my affliction, for the enemy hath magnified himself.'
    Lam 2:1-2
    (1) How hath the Lord covered with a cloud the daughter of Zion in His anger! He hath cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and hath not remembered His footstool in the day of His anger.
    (2) The Lord hath swallowed up unsparingly all the habitations of Jacob; He hath thrown down in His wrath the strongholds of the daughter of Judah; He hath brought them down to the ground; He hath profaned the kingdom and the princes thereof.
    Lam 3:45-47
    (45) Thou hast made us as the offscouring and refuse in the midst of the peoples.
    (46) All our enemies have opened their mouth wide against us.
    (47) Terror and the pit are come upon us, desolation and destruction.
    Lam 4:6-7
    (6) For the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands fell upon her.
    (7) Her princes were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was as of sapphire;
    Lam 5:7
    (7) Our fathers have sinned, and are not; and we have borne their iniquities.
    Lam 5:11
    (11) They have ravished the women in Zion, the maidens in the cities of Judah.
    You can quote selective proof texts from all the versions you want to but they are all meaningless. I quoted from the Jewish Publication Society and LXX all your arguments are wasted band width unless you can provide credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence which proves JPS/LXX wrong.
    JPS Lam 3:64-66
    (64) Thou wilt render unto them a recompense, O LORD, according to the work of their hands.
    (65) Thou wilt give them hardness of heart, Thy curse unto them.
    (66) Thou wilt pursue them in anger, and destroy them from under the heavens of the LORD.
    LXX Lam 3:64-66
    (64) Thou wilt render them a recompense, O Lord, according to the works of their hands.
    (65) Thou wilt give them as a covering, the grief of my heart.
    (66) Thou wilt persecute them in anger, and wilt consume them from under the heaven, O Lord.
    JPS Lam_4:16 The anger of the LORD hath divided them; He will no more regard them; they respected not the persons of the priests, they were not gracious unto the elders.
    LXX Lam 4:16
    (16) The presence of the Lord was their portion; but he will not again look upon them: they regarded not the person of the priests, they pitied not the prophets.
    And at the end of the day you cannot provide one single verse OT or NT where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, unequivocally says that all mankind will be saved after death, the unrighteous and the righteous alike.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sorry to say, Der Alter, your comments are erroneous.


    Unfortunately that is more error & remarks that i've already addressed which have never been refuted. See post #'s 1350 & 1351 above. Likewise this refutes your opinions:

    Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
    33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

    That is more of the same missing the mark that i've already addressed which has never been refuted. See post #'s 1350 & 1351 above. Likewise this refutes your opinions:

    Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
    33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  14. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear D.A. From your vast knowledge can you tell us what qualifies an individual as a saint in Father's Presence?

    Hebrews 6:10 “For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do.”
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Wrong as usual and irrelevant as usual. Any words omitted by the LXX and any other version are irrelevant because the words are in the Hebrew. Your attacking the Jewish scholars as "racist opinions" is racist in and of itself. Since you are so biased why should anyone consider anything you say?
    .....Here is the Hebrew of Ezek 33:31

    ואתן צאני צאן מרעיתי אדם אתם אני אלהיכם נאם אדני יהוה׃
    Note the 5th word from the right, which is how Hebrew is read, is אדם/adam, the Hebrew word for man. Cherry picking sources does not support your UR argument. As a matter of fact it destroys credibility.
    .....Instead of telling me which versions I should listen to, to the exclusion of others, perhaps you should learn that cherry picking sources does NOT prove your UR arguments.

    Showing once again you don't know the difference between the interpretation of scripture and "traditions," which disqualifies you from any credible opinion on this matter.
    The Jewish Encyclopedia has been accepted by Jewish scholars as a highly respected source for more than 100 years. Therefore the biased opinion of one UR-ite means diddly. Especially one who quotes anonymous writers with zero qualifications online e.g. Gerry Beauchamin as credible sources just because they support UR doctrine.
    Wrong as usual and irrelevant as usual. The Jewish interpretation of Hebrew scriptures is more valid than any argument you can provide.
    Here are a few more teachings about Gentiles mentioned in the Jewish Encyclopedia

    Gamaliel [who was Paul's teacher Acts 22:3] also expresses himself to the same effect, adding that the Gentiles, by their impure motive, incur the penalty of Gehenna.
    Eliezer b. Hyrcanus is less tolerant. According to him, the mind of every non-Jew is always intent upon idolatry (Giṭ. 45b). The cattle of a heathen is unfit for sacrifices ('Ab. Zarah 23b).
    Eleazar of Modi'im, in reference to Micah iv. 5, explains that Israel, though guilty of the same sins as the Gentiles, will not enter hell, while the Gentiles will (Cant. R. ii. 1). … On the whole, he is very bitter in his condemnations of the heathen. "They profit by their deeds of love and benevolence to slander Israel" (referring to Jer. xl. 3; B. B. 10a).
    Simon ben Yoḥai is preeminently the anti-Gentile teacher. In a collection of three sayings of his, beginning with the keyword טוב (Yer. Ḳid. 66c; Massek. Soferim xv. 10; Mek., Beshal-laḥ, 27a; Tan., Wayera, ed. Buber, 20), is found the expression, often quoted by anti-Semites, "Ṭob shebe-goyyim harog" (="The best among the Gentiles deserves to be killed")

    On the basis of Hab. iii. 6, Simon b. Yoḥai argued that, of all the nations, Israel alone was worthy to receive the Law (Lev. R. xiii…Hence, while Israel is like the patient ass, the Gentiles resemble the easy-going, selfish dog (Lev. R. xiii.; Sifre, Deut., Wezot ha-Berakah, 343).
    Judah ben 'Illai recommends the daily recital of the benediction. "Blessed be Thou . . . who hast not made me a goi"[gentile] (Tosef., Ber. vii. 18: Men. 43b, sometimes ascribed to Meïr; see Weiss, "Dor," ii. 137). The Talmud says that the passage refers to the Gentiles of Barbary and Mauretania, who walked nude in the streets (Yeb. 63b), and to similar Gentiles, "whose flesh is as the flesh of asses and whose issue is like the issue of horses" (Ezek. xxiii. 20);
    The Torah outlawed the issue of a Gentile as that of a beast" (Miḳ. viii. 4, referring to Ezek. l.c.)
    Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death"
    Resh Laḳish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). Rabbina, said "not even on Mondays [is the Gentile allowed to rest]";
    GENTILE - JewishEncyclopedia.com
    This what Jews were taught about gentiles for 100s of years..
    None of your arguments and nothing you have quoted has disproved anything I have posted
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sorry to say, Der Alter, once again your post is full of comments that are erroneous.

    Your faith in sources such as the Jewish Encyclopedia has been repeatedly exposed.

    Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

    While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

    The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
    "And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

    Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
    "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

    Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
    "And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

    Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

    Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
    "And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."
     
  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear D.A.: Have you ever been born from above? You sing of the J. Encyclopedia, sing us one note of the amazing love of God in Jesus Christ. Can you?

    God loves you exceedingly abundantly above all you can ask or think
     
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Grace Abounding Over Adam's Fall

    “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life”
    (Romans 5:18).

    A.E. Saxby, in God in Redemption 1, gives us a wonderfully logical reason for rejecting the notion that God will condemn anyone to eternal damnation and suffering, and rather proves that He has provided for the salvation of all mankind.

    He says,

    If a human act was effectual for ruin, how much more shall a Divine act be effectual for salvation?
    How quickly we believers will latch on to some fragment of a verse, in a whole context, to prove a negative perception and then propagate it as truth, to the total exclusion of the whole context of the doctrine being presented.

    Why do we so easily jump to conclude all men to condemnation, but find it so terribly difficult to accept with the same unabashedness the accompanying text which says that “the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life”?

    How can anyone think that as the first Adam’s act could bring about the “ruin” of all of his descendants, that the second Adam’s act was nowhere near as efficacious to provide the remedy whereby all of those descendants would be rescued from such a penalty? It’s really quite an illogical act of mental gymnastics to interpret Romans 5 that way.

    It is rather amazing that we never consider that as sin abounded in its effect on all of the first Adam’s posterity, God’s “grace did much more abound” (Romans 5:20).

    Thus, if the first Adam’s act was so powerful as to affect the ruin of all of his future generations, how much less of an effect would God’s grace be through the redeeming act of the Second Adam, that even one of those offspring could be eternally lost forever to the loving grace of His Creator and Father?

    It is too much to comprehend that we serve a God and Father so callous to the welfare of His creation, that He would allow any one of His dear creatures to go unprovided for in the eternal plan of His “great love wherewith He loved us.”

    Note: 1. God in Redemption by A.E. Saxby, reprinted by Bible Student’s Press (2008).

    http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Sneidar/grace.htm
     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Sorry to say typical empty UR rhetoric. This is the equivalent of ""I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" You have not shown anything I have posted to be erroneous and you certainly have not "exposed anything."
    The same repetitious, misdirecting UR rhetoric which does not address anything in the post you quoted. The same out-of-context quotes from the same cherry picked sources which do not, cannot prove or disprove any translation of any Greek word. Here is how legitimate scholars demonstrate the correct translation of Greek words.
    .....Note this definition cites 69 contemporary sources which support the translator's translation. The contemporary sources are highlighted in blue.

    αἰώνιος (ία ③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos.,Bell. 4, 461αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv. [1]
    [1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 33–34). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

    (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John

    In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

    4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

    The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

    Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

    Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

    Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

    Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

    In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

    Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

    Two Questions
    Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

    ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

    could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

    12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
     
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