Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
Vine's Dictionary
Expository Dictionary of NT Words
Eternal - Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words - Bible Dictionary
Eternity=
Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin
The relevant part of the bio of Gerry Beauchamin, the writer of the book linked in this post.
Gerry Beauchemin has served in missions since 1986 in Mexico, the Philippines, and Senegal, West Africa. He was a missionary with Youth With A Mission (Y.W.A.M.), The Luke Society, and Philippine Health Care Ministries. Since 2001, he has directed Dental Training For Missions in Brownsville Texas. He and his wife, Denise, (of 32 years), have three daughters and two granddaughters.
What qualifies Gerry to write on this theme? He has extensively reflected upon, read the works of others, and for many years wrestled with and studied the Scriptures on this topic. He has found solid Biblical evidence for his conclusion of hope. Having agonized for most of his life over hell he understands the contradictions it brings upon the Christian faith.
ABOUT
Here are his qualification he "has extensively reflected upon, read the works of others, and for many years wrestled with and studied the Scriptures on this topic. He has found solid Biblical evidence for his conclusions"
.....No graduate degrees in any field let alone any relevant Biblical field. No more qualified than any anonymous person posting in this forum but he is constantly quoted and presented as an authority.
 
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FineLinen

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The relevant part of the bio of Gerry Beauchamin, the writer of the book linked in this post.
Gerry Beauchemin has served in missions since 1986 in Mexico, the Philippines, and Senegal, West Africa. He was a missionary with Youth With A Mission (Y.W.A.M.), The Luke Society, and Philippine Health Care Ministries. Since 2001, he has directed Dental Training For Missions in Brownsville Texas. He and his wife, Denise, (of 32 years), have three daughters and two granddaughters.
What qualifies Gerry to write on this theme? He has extensively reflected upon, read the works of others, and for many years wrestled with and studied the Scriptures on this topic. He has found solid Biblical evidence for his conclusion of hope. Having agonized for most of his life over hell he understands the contradictions it brings upon the Christian faith.
ABOUT
Here are his qualification he "has extensively reflected upon, read the works of others, and for many years wrestled with and studied the Scriptures on this topic. He has found solid Biblical evidence for his conclusions"
.....No graduate degrees in any field let alone any relevant Biblical field. No more qualified than any anonymous person posting in this forum but he is constantly quoted and presented as an authority.

Dear D.A.: can you list the qualifications for being a follower of the Lamb of God? Further: what are the defining marks of one who is IN Christ Jesus & follows the Lamb?
 
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Sir Robbins

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this thread proves to me that many sitting in churches who only know what they are told by man are lost and don't even know their own fate. Many in this thread are clearly investigators and followers enough to have actually studied the bible and its' teachings, not just certain passages passed on a Sunday to people sitting in chairs. I went through most of the pages in this thread....

wow..

some of the deepest and most hardcore topics and conversations happen online. I have NEVER seen people in person discuss such things. Small groups and large congregations fail at this horribly. Nothing beneath the surface is scratched.
 
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Choir Loft

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I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before trying to respond to it. Now in addition to empty hollering you are into making judgments and and false accusations. I never said or implied that I had any authority to judge anyone whether they had or had not done anything or that God had had/had not heard or approved them.

I never said or implied otherwise. You are still misrepresenting what I said.

YOU never said or implied that you had any authority to judge anyone? Let me repeat and quote your own words......

Unfortunately it is not possible to accept as credible everyone who claims they are born-again and have prayed about something.

The quoted statement of yours IS INDEED a judgment. Your oily attempt to deny your own words makes you sound as though you're some sort of politician - or worse.

YOU DID judge and YOU DID claim that being born-again or reflecting upon personal prayer is an invalid expression of one's convictions.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
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FineLinen

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The relevant part of the bio of Gerry Beauchamin, the writer of the book linked in this post.
Gerry Beauchemin has served in missions since 1986 in Mexico, the Philippines, and Senegal, West Africa. He was a missionary with Youth With A Mission (Y.W.A.M.), The Luke Society, and Philippine Health Care Ministries. Since 2001, he has directed Dental Training For Missions in Brownsville Texas. He and his wife, Denise, (of 32 years), have three daughters and two granddaughters.
What qualifies Gerry to write on this theme? He has extensively reflected upon, read the works of others, and for many years wrestled with and studied the Scriptures on this topic. He has found solid Biblical evidence for his conclusion of hope. Having agonized for most of his life over hell he understands the contradictions it brings upon the Christian faith.
ABOUT
Here are his qualification he "has extensively reflected upon, read the works of others, and for many years wrestled with and studied the Scriptures on this topic. He has found solid Biblical evidence for his conclusions"
.....No graduate degrees in any field let alone any relevant Biblical field. No more qualified than any anonymous person posting in this forum but he is constantly quoted and presented as an authority.
 
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FineLinen

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Dear D.A.: as you parade your vast knowledge before us, consider the words of St. Paul!

"I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ..."
 
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Der Alte

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YOU never said or implied that you had any authority to judge anyone? Let me repeat and quote your own words......

DA said:
Unfortunately it is not possible to accept as credible everyone who claims they are born-again and have prayed about something.
And I think I can say without fear of being contradicted that you make the same kinds of Judgments I do.

CL said:
The quoted statement of yours IS INDEED a judgment. Your oily attempt to deny your own words makes you sound as though you're some sort of politician - or worse.
Let us see if this is true.
CL said:
YOU DID judge and YOU DID claim that being born-again or reflecting upon personal prayer is an invalid expression of one's convictions.
Wrong! Let us see if you are just as "guilty" as I am of this same type of evaluation? Here are a list of a few groups who all claim that they are saved and they have prayed about it and know that they are "saved;" JW, LDS, WWCG. OP, UPCI, UU, INC, some MJ, to name a few. Do you agree with all of them, do you believe that they are saved and that they have prayed about it and God has definitely assured them they are "saved?"
CL said:
that's me, hollering from the choir loft..
A simple yes or no will suffice, rather than a bunch of empty hollering.
 
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DeeR.

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YOU never said or implied that you had any authority to judge anyone? Let me repeat and quote your own words......

Unfortunately it is not possible to accept as credible everyone who claims they are born-again and have prayed about something.

The quoted statement of yours IS INDEED a judgment. Your oily attempt to deny your own words makes you sound as though you're some sort of politician - or worse.

YOU DID judge and YOU DID claim that being born-again or reflecting upon personal prayer is an invalid expression of one's convictions.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
YOU never said or implied that you had any authority to judge anyone? Let me repeat and quote your own words......

Unfortunately it is not possible to accept as credible everyone who claims they are born-again and have prayed about something.

The quoted statement of yours IS INDEED a judgment. Your oily attempt to deny your own words makes you sound as though you're some sort of politician - or worse.

YOU DID judge and YOU DID claim that being born-again or reflecting upon personal prayer is an invalid expression of one's convictions.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
I actually agree with the the discernment/ judgement here. The statement you quoted is indeed a judgement, however, there is a difference between judging rightly and unrighteously. We are called to make right judgement and discern that which is true from false. I also agree that we can not just accept anyone's claim, that is we are given the Holy Spirit within to teach convict and guide us as well as the church, Scriptures etc. We are told to test all things and make righteous judgements. Also, while many politicians are exposed as corrupt as individuals we should not slander and group all politicians together. They are God's established authority and therefore His. We should bless and lift them up as we are commanded to.
 
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Pneuma3

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The relevant part of the bio of Gerry Beauchamin, the writer of the book linked in this post.
Gerry Beauchemin has served in missions since 1986 in Mexico, the Philippines, and Senegal, West Africa. He was a missionary with Youth With A Mission (Y.W.A.M.), The Luke Society, and Philippine Health Care Ministries. Since 2001, he has directed Dental Training For Missions in Brownsville Texas. He and his wife, Denise, (of 32 years), have three daughters and two granddaughters.
What qualifies Gerry to write on this theme? He has extensively reflected upon, read the works of others, and for many years wrestled with and studied the Scriptures on this topic. He has found solid Biblical evidence for his conclusion of hope. Having agonized for most of his life over hell he understands the contradictions it brings upon the Christian faith.
ABOUT
Here are his qualification he "has extensively reflected upon, read the works of others, and for many years wrestled with and studied the Scriptures on this topic. He has found solid Biblical evidence for his conclusions"
.....No graduate degrees in any field let alone any relevant Biblical field. No more qualified than any anonymous person posting in this forum but he is constantly quoted and presented as an authority.

What was Peter, James and John's qualifications?
 
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ClementofA

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The word "aionios" is used 71 times in the Bible, and every time it is used, it is describing something that is eternal.

Easy to say. Another thing to prove. Can you prove the "aionion" fire (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom burned forever? Is Sodom still burning? If that fire was temporary & not "eternal", why must the use of the same words, aionion fire, in Matthew 18:8 & 25:41 mean the fire is "eternal"? Is Love Omnipotent an eternal sadist infinitely worse than what Satan, Hitler & Stalin have done combined?

The word "aionios" is also used to describe
the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14),
salvation (Hebrews 5:9),
redemption (Hebrews 9:12),
the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:11),
the honor and power of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 6:16),
God's glory (1 Peter 5:10),
and our immortal bodies that we will one day receive (2 Corinthians 5:1).
Those who argue that the punishment in the lake of fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that all of these will one day expire.

By that logic one day Jesus being with the disciples "will one day expire", since Jesus said:

teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age. (Mt.28:20)

Those who argue that the punishment in the lake of fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that all of these will one day expire.

You have merely asserted that, but provided no evidence, argument, reasoning or proof that what you allege is true and not false.

So then what you are saying by your version of the definition used of 'aionios'
the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14), reference refers to a temporary, not an eternal Spirit of God

No. Is Jesus being with us only temporary since He said:

teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age. (Mt.28:20)

How much more will the blood of the Annointed, who through a Spirit of That Age* offered himself unblemished to God, purify our conscience from dead observances, for worship of a living God! (Heb.9:14, DBH, * "An aeonian Spirit.")

Through the Spirit of that age, e.g. the Holy Spirit that will reign in the millennial age of 1000 years, or the Holy Spirit of this present age, Jesus "offered himself". Does that mean this present age or the millennial age will last forever? No. Does that mean the Holy Spirit will die when those ages end? No. No more than Jesus' words in Mt.28:20 mean He will only be with His disciples in this age & not after this age.

salvation (Hebrews 5:9), God's salvation is temporary

Is Jesus being with His disciples temporary since He said:

teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age. (Mt.28:20)

And having been perfected he became a cause of salvation in the Age for all who are obedient to Him (Heb.5:9, DBH).

"salvation in the Age", e.g. the millennial age kingdom. Those who are not "obedient to Him" will not partake of that salvation. Does that limit salvation to only the millennium age? No, for the saved will also have immortality, incorruption, always be with the Lord, pain will be no more, etc (Lk.20:36; Rev.21:4; 7:14-17; 1 Cor.15:42-57, 1 Thess.4:17, etc). Eventually all will have salvation that never ends, for God will be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28; Rom.5:18-19; Phil.2:9-11; etc).

redemption (Hebrews 9:12), Christ's dying to redeem us only temporary

Not by blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, he entered once and for all into the Holy of Holies, having obtained an emancipation payment for the Age (Heb.9:12, DBH).

Those that obey Him (Heb.5:9) obtain redemption in "the Age" (Heb.9:12). Those that don't obey Him will not, though even they will be eventually saved along with the saints, as referenced above.

The kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:11), His kingdom is temporary

The same words, aionios kingdom, are used of Satan's kingdom. Are you going to argue that Satan's aionios kingdom is "eternal"? Early church father Chrysostom wrote that Satan's aionios kingdom will end:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

Will Christ's aionios kingdom of the millennial aion (=eon/age) last forever? Obviously not.

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev.20:6)

For thus the entrance into our Lord and savior Jesus the Annointed's Kingdom in the Age shall be lavishly provided you (2 Peter 1:11, DBH).

And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev.20:4b)

Does that mean they only live for 1000 years & their life is temporary? Does that mean they reign only for 1000 years and their reign is temporary?

The honor and power of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 6:16), is temporary

to whom the honor and might of the Age; amen (1 Tim.6:16b, DBH)

The power of Jesus in the millennial Age no more denies His power after that age or in this present age than your teenage years deny your adult years. Just because your teenage years ended, that doesn't mean you ended. That God is the God of Abraham or Israel does not deny that He is the God of all the earth. To say that God is the Sovereign God of this present wicked age does not mean He is temporarily God or will cease to be God after this present eon ends.

God's glory (1 Peter 5:10), is temporary

God's glory of that Age. Same idea as 1 Tim.6:16 above.


and our immortal bodies that we will one day receive (2 Corinthians 5:1). Are not incorruptible but temporary...

Now we know that, if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a home of the Age, in the heavens, not made by hands. (2 Cor.5:1, DBH*).

Paul already told the Corinthians, in his first epistle to them, that the resurrected body will be "immortal" & "incorruptible" (1 Cor.15). To repeat that again in 2 Cor.5:1 would be redundant.

The "heavens" (2 Cor.5:1) are not eternal, but will pass away. So why assume that "the Age" (2 Cor.5:1) is eternal? After the millennial Age ends the heavens will pass away (Rev.20). That doesn't mean the immortal body will pass away. Obviously it cannot.

* The New Testament: A New Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale University Press

More examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
 
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ClementofA

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So then what you are saying by your version of the definition used of 'aionios'
(Romans 16:26) but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God

A literal more accurate translation of aionion (=eonian) in Rom.16:25-26 states:

25 Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times EONIAN,
26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the EONIAN God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience

A number of Greek scholars understand aionion in Rom.16:25 to refer to a finite duration, even among those biased to endless punishment. Just look at a few dozen Greek lexicons, dictionaries, commentaries & translations to see for yourself.

Even aionion in verse 26 doesn’t require aionion mean eternal. Gustav A. Deissmann discovered a tablet from the time of the ECF Origen that said God is aionian and more than aionian (epiaionion), making aionion in reference to God finite.

Moreover, if aionion in v.25 is finite, then contextually one should consider that its use in v.26 of the context is likewise finite. Rom.16:25 refers to eons past that have ended. So in the same sentence continuing into v.26, the reference to eonian God can be to those past eons. That’s the contextual case for the viewpoint that eonian in v.26 is also finite. God was the eonian God over past eons that have already ended.

“I agree that aidios conveys the sense of eternal, forever, etc. but that in itself does not automatically make it synonymous with aionios which is a completely different word. How did you make that leap of logic? That would be another logical fallacy commonly known as an overgeneralization. Did you not notice that in v.25 - the verse previous to Rom 16:26 - also contains the word aionios? This word cannot possibly mean eternal in this verse as it refers to a mystery previously kept secret but is now revealed. An “eternal” secret by plain definition can never be revealed thus the translators/scholars chose to translate aionios in v.25 as “long ages” or something equivalent. This then begs the question why these scholars chose to translate aionios in the very next verse as eternal instead of ages? What is the justification for changing its meaning from one verse to the next? And if Paul wanted to convey the meaning of an eternal God in v.26, why didn’t he employ aidios which does mean that? The context of these two verses describe God who reveals himself and his purpose to men through the prophets and the scriptures. Something that was once a mystery kept secret but now made manifest though the ages of time. Therefore v.26 can be properly translated as “and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith -” (YLT). God works out his manifest will through the ages making it known to all the nations - something that was previously a secret. Thus aionios in v.26 does not refer to God’s eternal nature but instead references his age-during ‘method’ of making his will known through the ages of time.”

Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?
Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?
 
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Pneuma3

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Easy to say. Another thing to prove. Can you prove the "aionion" fire (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom burned forever? Is Sodom still burning? If that fire was temporary & not "eternal", why must the use of the same words, aionion fire, in Matthew 18:8 & 25:41 mean the fire is "eternal"? Is Love Omnipotent an eternal sadist infinitely worse than what Satan, Hitler & Stalin have done combined?



By that logic one day Jesus being with the disciples "will one day expire", since Jesus said:

teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age. (Mt.28:20)



You have merely asserted that, but provided no evidence, argument, reasoning or proof that what you allege is true and not false.



No. Is Jesus being with us only temporary since He said:

teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age. (Mt.28:20)

How much more will the blood of the Annointed, who through a Spirit of That Age* offered himself unblemished to God, purify our conscience from dead observances, for worship of a living God! (Heb.9:14, DBH, * "An aeonian Spirit.")

Through the Spirit of that age, e.g. the Holy Spirit that will reign in the millennial age of 1000 years, or the Holy Spirit of this present age, Jesus "offered himself". Does that mean this present age or the millennial age will last forever? No. Does that mean the Holy Spirit will die when those ages end? No. No more than Jesus' words in Mt.28:20 mean He will only be with His disciples in this age & not after this age.



Is Jesus being with His disciples temporary since He said:

teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age. (Mt.28:20)

And having been perfected he became a cause of salvation in the Age for all who are obedient to Him (Heb.5:9, DBH).

"salvation in the Age", e.g. the millennial age kingdom. Those who are not "obedient to Him" will not partake of that salvation. Does that limit salvation to only the millennium age? No, for the saved will also have immortality, incorruption, always be with the Lord, pain will be no more, etc (Lk.20:36; Rev.21:4; 7:14-17; 1 Cor.15:42-57, 1 Thess.4:17, etc). Eventually all will have salvation that never ends, for God will be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28; Rom.5:18-19; Phil.2:9-11; etc).



Not by blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, he entered once and for all into the Holy of Holies, having obtained an emancipation payment for the Age (Heb.9:12, DBH).

Those that obey Him (Heb.5:9) obtain redemption in "the Age" (Heb.9:12). Those that don't obey Him will not, though even they will be eventually saved along with the saints, as referenced above.



The same words, aionios kingdom, are used of Satan's kingdom. Are you going to argue that Satan's aionios kingdom is "eternal"? Early church father Chrysostom wrote that Satan's aionios kingdom will end:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

Will Christ's aionios kingdom of the millennial aion (=eon/age) last forever? Obviously not.

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev.20:6)

For thus the entrance into our Lord and savior Jesus the Annointed's Kingdom in the Age shall be lavishly provided you (2 Peter 1:11, DBH).

And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev.20:4b)

Does that mean they only live for 1000 years & their life is temporary? Does that mean they reign only for 1000 years and their reign is temporary?



to whom the honor and might of the Age; amen (1 Tim.6:16b, DBH)

The power of Jesus in the millennial Age no more denies His power after that age or in this present age than your teenage years deny your adult years. Just because your teenage years ended, that doesn't mean you ended. That God is the God of Abraham or Israel does not deny that He is the God of all the earth. To say that God is the Sovereign God of this present wicked age does not mean He is temporarily God or will cease to be God after this present eon ends.



God's glory of that Age. Same idea as 1 Tim.6:16 above.




Now we know that, if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a home of the Age, in the heavens, not made by hands. (2 Cor.5:1, DBH*).

Paul already told the Corinthians, in his first epistle to them, that the resurrected body will be "immortal" & "incorruptible" (1 Cor.15). To repeat that again in 2 Cor.5:1 would be redundant.

The "heavens" (2 Cor.5:1) are not eternal, but will pass away. So why assume that "the Age" (2 Cor.5:1) is eternal? After the millennial Age ends the heavens will pass away (Rev.20). That doesn't mean the immortal body will pass away. Obviously it cannot.

* The New Testament: A New Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale University Press

More examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

those who continue to teach aion and its adjective are eternal are totally missing what the gospel writers are saying. There is a mystery of the ages that is being done away with because of their insistence on aion and its adjective being eternal. for how can one understand what God has been saying through the ages if aion and its adjective is eternal.

God is the God of the AGES and just because one age ends and another age starts does not mean God must also end and start.
 
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Pneuma3

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“I agree that aidios conveys the sense of eternal, forever, etc. but that in itself does not automatically make it synonymous with aionios which is a completely different word. How did you make that leap of logic? That would be another logical fallacy commonly known as an overgeneralization. Did you not notice that in v.25 - the verse previous to Rom 16:26 - also contains the word aionios? This word cannot possibly mean eternal in this verse as it refers to a mystery previously kept secret but is now revealed. An “eternal” secret by plain definition can never be revealed thus the translators/scholars chose to translate aionios in v.25 as “long ages” or something equivalent. This then begs the question why these scholars chose to translate aionios in the very next verse as eternal instead of ages? What is the justification for changing its meaning from one verse to the next? And if Paul wanted to convey the meaning of an eternal God in v.26, why didn’t he employ aidios which does mean that? The context of these two verses describe God who reveals himself and his purpose to men through the prophets and the scriptures. Something that was once a mystery kept secret but now made manifest though the ages of time. Therefore v.26 can be properly translated as “and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith -” (YLT). God works out his manifest will through the ages making it known to all the nations - something that was previously a secret. Thus aionios in v.26 does not refer to God’s eternal nature but instead references his age-during ‘method’ of making his will known through the ages of time.”

:clap::amen:
 
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"Now, since the New Testament was not written by Greeks but by Hebrew men using the Greek language, shouldn’t we expect the idioms and word-meanings found in the NT to be, in general, derived not from secular Greek literature, but rather from the Old Testament Scriptures? While I’m certainly not suggesting that 1st century secular Greek works should be disregarded as irrelevant, shouldn’t the LXX be considered more appropriate and useful in determining the meaning(s) that Christ and the authors of the NT (who, of course, were Jewish) would have ascribed to the words aion and aionios rather than, say, the works of a 4th century BC Classical Greek philosopher? I mean, assuming there was such a thing in existence in the 1st century as the Hebrew Bible translated into Koine Greek, shouldn’t it be one of the primary sources to which one should refer when trying to ascertain what a 1st century Jew most likely meant when he used the words aion and aionios in a work written in Koine Greek? Or am I missing something?

"As far as the definitions of aionios provided by BDAG, I think the first definition given (“pertaining to a long period of time” that is past) could apply to the word as it appears in the LXX in a number of places (e.g., Job 22:15; Ps 24:7; Ps 24:9; Ps 77:5; Pro 22:28; Pro 23:10; Isa 58:12; Isa 61:4; Isa 63:11; Jer 6:16; Jer 18:15; Eze 26:20; Eze 36:2; Hab 3:6). But I wonder what definition of aionios BDAG would consider most appropriate when a time of limited future duration is in view? Because the LXX abounds with such examples (e.g., Gen 17:7; Gen 17:8; Gen 17:13; Gen 17:19; Gen 48:4; Ex 12:14; Ex 12:17; Ex 27:21; Ex 28:43; Ex 29:28; Ex 30:21; Ex 31:16; Ex 31:17; Lev 6:18; Lev 6:22; Lev 7:34; Lev 7:36; Lev 10:9; Lev 10:15; Lev 16:29; Lev 16:31; Lev 16:34; Lev 17:7; Lev 23:14; Lev 23:21; Lev 23:31; Lev 23:41; Lev 24:3; Lev 24:8; Lev 24:9; Lev 25:34; Num 10:8; Num 15:15; Num 18:8; Num 18:11; Num 18:19; Num 18:23; Num 19:10; Num 19:21; Num 25:13; 1Ch 16:17; Job 3:18; Job 10:22; Job 21:11; Job 41:4; Ps 76:4; Ps 78:66; Ps 105:10; Isa 24:5; Isa 55:13; Isa 60:15; Jer 5:22; Jer 18:16; Jer 20:17; Jer 23:40; Jer 25:9; Jer 25:12; Jer 51:39; Eze 35:5; Eze 35:9; Jon 2:6; Mic 2:9).

"While some might see the remaining occurrences of aionios in the LXX as falling under the last two definitions provided by BDAG (e.g., Gen 9:12; Gen 9:16; Gen 21:33; Ex 3:15; 2Sa 23:5; Job 33:12; Job 34:17; Ps 112:6; Ps 139:24; Isa 26:4; Isa 33:14; Isa 35:10; Isa 40:28; Isa 45:17; Isa 51:11; Isa 54:4; Isa 54:8; Isa 55:3; Isa 56:5; Isa 60:19; Isa 60:20; Isa 61:7-8; Isa 63:12; Jer 31:3; Jer 32:40; Jer 50:5; Eze 16:60; Eze 37:26; Dan 4:3; Dan 4:34; Dan 7:14; Dan 7:27; Dan 9:24; Dan 12:2), I think even these examples can be understood as referring to temporary duration rather than endless duration in an absolute sense. At any rate, most would agree that, while long and indefinite duration is most likely in view in the former examples, endless duration in an absolute sense is not. So I’m not sure why we can’t understandaionios in Matt 25:46 (for example) to have the same or similar meaning as it has in the LXX translation of Num 25:13 or Jer 25:9.

"I like the concluding definition for aionios found in The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan): “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance, or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Caesar’s life.” That is, the word stands for a “hidden” and indefinite duration of time, whether past or future. This seems to be the meaning of olam in the Hebrew Bible, and since aion and aionion seem to have been employed by the inspired writers of the NT as the Greek equivalents of this single Hebrew word, this definition would be most consistent. And as it seems likely that Jesus would’ve spoken Hebrew or Aramaic (at least, when he was speaking to his disciples, like in Matt 25:46), the word he would have used would have either been olam or alam .
 
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Dear Pneuma: I am so happy it does not require me to respond to the posts of our friend Clement!

“The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior’s day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.

Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment?

Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation.”
 
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DeeR.

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Easy to say. Another thing to prove. Can you prove the "aionion" fire (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom burned forever? Is Sodom still burning? If that fire was temporary & not "eternal", why must the use of the same words, aionion fire, in Matthew 18:8 & 25:41 mean the fire is "eternal"? Is Love Omnipotent an eternal sadist infinitely worse than what Satan, Hitler & Stalin have done combined?



By that logic one day Jesus being with the disciples "will one day expire", since Jesus said:

teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age. (Mt.28:20)



You have merely asserted that, but provided no evidence, argument, reasoning or proof that what you allege is true and not false.



No. Is Jesus being with us only temporary since He said:

teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age. (Mt.28:20)

How much more will the blood of the Annointed, who through a Spirit of That Age* offered himself unblemished to God, purify our conscience from dead observances, for worship of a living God! (Heb.9:14, DBH, * "An aeonian Spirit.")

Through the Spirit of that age, e.g. the Holy Spirit that will reign in the millennial age of 1000 years, or the Holy Spirit of this present age, Jesus "offered himself". Does that mean this present age or the millennial age will last forever? No. Does that mean the Holy Spirit will die when those ages end? No. No more than Jesus' words in Mt.28:20 mean He will only be with His disciples in this age & not after this age.



Is Jesus being with His disciples temporary since He said:

teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age. (Mt.28:20)

And having been perfected he became a cause of salvation in the Age for all who are obedient to Him (Heb.5:9, DBH).

"salvation in the Age", e.g. the millennial age kingdom. Those who are not "obedient to Him" will not partake of that salvation. Does that limit salvation to only the millennium age? No, for the saved will also have immortality, incorruption, always be with the Lord, pain will be no more, etc (Lk.20:36; Rev.21:4; 7:14-17; 1 Cor.15:42-57, 1 Thess.4:17, etc). Eventually all will have salvation that never ends, for God will be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28; Rom.5:18-19; Phil.2:9-11; etc).



Not by blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, he entered once and for all into the Holy of Holies, having obtained an emancipation payment for the Age (Heb.9:12, DBH).

Those that obey Him (Heb.5:9) obtain redemption in "the Age" (Heb.9:12). Those that don't obey Him will not, though even they will be eventually saved along with the saints, as referenced above.



The same words, aionios kingdom, are used of Satan's kingdom. Are you going to argue that Satan's aionios kingdom is "eternal"? Early church father Chrysostom wrote that Satan's aionios kingdom will end:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

Will Christ's aionios kingdom of the millennial aion (=eon/age) last forever? Obviously not.

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev.20:6)

For thus the entrance into our Lord and savior Jesus the Annointed's Kingdom in the Age shall be lavishly provided you (2 Peter 1:11, DBH).

And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev.20:4b)

Does that mean they only live for 1000 years & their life is temporary? Does that mean they reign only for 1000 years and their reign is temporary?



to whom the honor and might of the Age; amen (1 Tim.6:16b, DBH)

The power of Jesus in the millennial Age no more denies His power after that age or in this present age than your teenage years deny your adult years. Just because your teenage years ended, that doesn't mean you ended. That God is the God of Abraham or Israel does not deny that He is the God of all the earth. To say that God is the Sovereign God of this present wicked age does not mean He is temporarily God or will cease to be God after this present eon ends.



God's glory of that Age. Same idea as 1 Tim.6:16 above.




Now we know that, if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a home of the Age, in the heavens, not made by hands. (2 Cor.5:1, DBH*).

Paul already told the Corinthians, in his first epistle to them, that the resurrected body will be "immortal" & "incorruptible" (1 Cor.15). To repeat that again in 2 Cor.5:1 would be redundant.

The "heavens" (2 Cor.5:1) are not eternal, but will pass away. So why assume that "the Age" (2 Cor.5:1) is eternal? After the millennial Age ends the heavens will pass away (Rev.20). That doesn't mean the immortal body will pass away. Obviously it cannot.

* The New Testament: A New Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale University Press

More examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
To answer your question, yes Sodom also refers to the people as a whole and fire also refers to that which effects more than the temporal body. Fire represents God's wrath and Judgement upon the wicked and God does not merely demonstrate anything in scripture solely for the outward temporal purpose or teaching. The fire those who are Sodom receive is perpetual because it is in line with what evil they have chosen in rejecting God. Just as their chosen inward torment will not cease so too the fires do not cease ... The bible shows that suffering after death occurs because the wicked are still conscious and aware of the suffering their ways have caused them and seek for water (revealed by scripture as the Word of God) but none is given to them because they never had or would take that water and use it for it's purpose. It is similar to if you had water for those in need and one person kept coming asking for water & every time you gave the water to them they would dump it out and mock everyone... no more water will be given because it is precious and needed for those who will use and appreciate it.
Yes my friend Sodom is more than just a physical 'place' and it's fire is more than physical temporary fire.
Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
 
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Easy to say. Another thing to prove. Can you prove the "aionion" fire (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom burned forever? Is Sodom still burning? If that fire was temporary & not "eternal", why must the use of the same words, aionion fire, in Matthew 18:8 & 25:41 mean the fire is "eternal"? Is Love Omnipotent an eternal sadist infinitely worse than what Satan, Hitler & Stalin have done combined?



By that logic one day Jesus being with the disciples "will one day expire", since Jesus said:

teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age. (Mt.28:20)



You have merely asserted that, but provided no evidence, argument, reasoning or proof that what you allege is true and not false.



No. Is Jesus being with us only temporary since He said:

teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age. (Mt.28:20)

How much more will the blood of the Annointed, who through a Spirit of That Age* offered himself unblemished to God, purify our conscience from dead observances, for worship of a living God! (Heb.9:14, DBH, * "An aeonian Spirit.")

Through the Spirit of that age, e.g. the Holy Spirit that will reign in the millennial age of 1000 years, or the Holy Spirit of this present age, Jesus "offered himself". Does that mean this present age or the millennial age will last forever? No. Does that mean the Holy Spirit will die when those ages end? No. No more than Jesus' words in Mt.28:20 mean He will only be with His disciples in this age & not after this age.



Is Jesus being with His disciples temporary since He said:

teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age. (Mt.28:20)

And having been perfected he became a cause of salvation in the Age for all who are obedient to Him (Heb.5:9, DBH).

"salvation in the Age", e.g. the millennial age kingdom. Those who are not "obedient to Him" will not partake of that salvation. Does that limit salvation to only the millennium age? No, for the saved will also have immortality, incorruption, always be with the Lord, pain will be no more, etc (Lk.20:36; Rev.21:4; 7:14-17; 1 Cor.15:42-57, 1 Thess.4:17, etc). Eventually all will have salvation that never ends, for God will be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28; Rom.5:18-19; Phil.2:9-11; etc).



Not by blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, he entered once and for all into the Holy of Holies, having obtained an emancipation payment for the Age (Heb.9:12, DBH).

Those that obey Him (Heb.5:9) obtain redemption in "the Age" (Heb.9:12). Those that don't obey Him will not, though even they will be eventually saved along with the saints, as referenced above.



The same words, aionios kingdom, are used of Satan's kingdom. Are you going to argue that Satan's aionios kingdom is "eternal"? Early church father Chrysostom wrote that Satan's aionios kingdom will end:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

Will Christ's aionios kingdom of the millennial aion (=eon/age) last forever? Obviously not.

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev.20:6)

For thus the entrance into our Lord and savior Jesus the Annointed's Kingdom in the Age shall be lavishly provided you (2 Peter 1:11, DBH).

And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev.20:4b)

Does that mean they only live for 1000 years & their life is temporary? Does that mean they reign only for 1000 years and their reign is temporary?



to whom the honor and might of the Age; amen (1 Tim.6:16b, DBH)

The power of Jesus in the millennial Age no more denies His power after that age or in this present age than your teenage years deny your adult years. Just because your teenage years ended, that doesn't mean you ended. That God is the God of Abraham or Israel does not deny that He is the God of all the earth. To say that God is the Sovereign God of this present wicked age does not mean He is temporarily God or will cease to be God after this present eon ends.



God's glory of that Age. Same idea as 1 Tim.6:16 above.




Now we know that, if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a home of the Age, in the heavens, not made by hands. (2 Cor.5:1, DBH*).

Paul already told the Corinthians, in his first epistle to them, that the resurrected body will be "immortal" & "incorruptible" (1 Cor.15). To repeat that again in 2 Cor.5:1 would be redundant.

The "heavens" (2 Cor.5:1) are not eternal, but will pass away. So why assume that "the Age" (2 Cor.5:1) is eternal? After the millennial Age ends the heavens will pass away (Rev.20). That doesn't mean the immortal body will pass away. Obviously it cannot.

* The New Testament: A New Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale University Press

More examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
And Yes, Yes, Praise God, Hallelujah absolutely, Jesus being with them is temporary!!!! You understand then and prove the scriptures's point exactly...
John 14
14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
Jesus the Way to the Father
5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
 
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DeeR.

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Dear Pneuma: I am so happy it does not require me to respond to the posts of our friend Clement!

“The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior’s day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.

Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment?

Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation.”
Age lasting, Yes! Correct! It is absolutely true since only in this age are those things happening for the purpose to correct !!!! After their judgement they can no longer receive any chance of being corrected... it is just a choice they chose that will be granted to them in the just judgement, giving to all what they decided for themselves by their lives deeds and actions. Some deny the Peace and Joy which is God Himself, some embrace bitterness and anger which consumes them day in and day out. God is just and gives everyone the choice to choose to be with Him or separated from Him (in this age with the hope of being corrected, after this age there is no more correction, just a fearful expectation of judgement).
 
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DeeR.

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And Yes, Yes, Praise God, Hallelujah absolutely, Jesus being with them is temporary!!!! You understand then and prove the scriptures's point exactly...

John 14
14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jesus the Way to the Father
5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”


Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.


25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

You write so many long things and with many words, i apologize for taking so long to respond to you and giving you much more concise responses.
 
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