• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by DM25, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private
    "“In looking at Phil. 2:10, “That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow,” it may be objected that they “should,” but they will not. But the original here means that they not only “should,” but that they also will; the same construction is in John 3:16 where the Word reads “that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,” etc. There is no doubt expressed in the word “should,” a believer will certainly not perish. Besides, the passage in Isa. 45:23 states by the divine oath that “every knee shall bow.” “In the Name of Jesus” (Greek and R. V.) means more than simply using the name of Jesus. It signifies, according to the Hebrew idiom, in the very nature of Jesus. This implies not only a change of heart, but that He has bestowed His own nature and spirit. Besides, the confession is that “Jesus Christ is Lord.” No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."

    http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/ch8_neglected_age.html

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
     
  2. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,452
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context.
    I read Rom 11, I read the rest of Romans too.

    Romans 11:4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
    Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
    God has reserved only a remnant not all Israel.
    Romans 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
    Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
    Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
    The converse of vs. 23 is "if they persist in unbelief they will not be grafted in."
    Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy [ἐλεέω] on them all.
    eleeō the word translated "may have mercy" is an aorist, active, subjunctive. The subjunctive is the mood of possibility and potentiality not certainty.
    Romans 14:9
    (9) For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord [κυριεύω] of both the dead and the living.
    kurieuō the word translated "might be the Lord" is aorist, active, subjunctive the mood of possibility and potentiality not certainty.
    Romans 2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
    Romans 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
    The converse of "immortality and eternal life" is "not eternal life, not immortality." And FYI in this verse Paul clearly defines or describes "aionios zoe" as eternal life, not "ages" by pairing it with "immortality."
    Romans 2:9
    (9) There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
    Trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, not salvation after death. How did the Roman gentile and Jewish Christians understand this? Do you think they were sitting around telling each other, "It's alright if we do evil we are all going to get saved anyway?"
    Romans 2:12
    (12) All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
    Those who "sin apart from the law will ...perish." Where is that everyone will be saved no matter what? Do you think the Roman gentile and Jewish Christians were saying to each other "We are not going to perish, we are all going to be saved."
    Romans 6:16
    (16) Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
    "Slaves of sin...leads to death." Where is the "everyone will be saved no matter what?"
    Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
    The converse of this "There is condemnation for those who are not in Christ."
    Romans 11:14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
    Paul hopes that he might save some of his people, not all.
     
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private
    That's referring to the "present time" in the past over 1900 years ago when Paul wrote that, hence irrelevant to the topic of any future or final destinies to our time in 2018 A.D..

    Notice there is "sternness" to those who fell, the unbelievers, not endless sadistic tortures.

    Obviously unbelievers are not grafted in. Not until they believe. "God is able to graft them in again".

    When the subjunctive occurs with the particle hina, as in Rom.11:32 & Gal.2:16, for examples, it does not indicate "possibility & potentiality" but rather "purpose or result". "When hina is used with the subjunctive, the mood changes from one of possibility or probability, to one of purpose or result." http://salvationbygrace.org/current-qa/understanding-a-hina-clause/

    “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.” (Gal.2:16, NASB)

    "Again, “may” here is an idiomatic way of translating purpose in English. The purpose of belief is justification. Indeed, one can also see here the hina clause being used to indicate result. Paul, by using the subjunctive, is not intending to communicate any kind of uncertainty with regard to justification. Rather, by using the subjunctive in a hina clause, he is proclaiming that our faith in Christ has its purpose in our justification, and also has its end result in our justification." http://salvationbygrace.org/current-qa/understanding-a-hina-clause/



    Again, as with Rom.11:32 above, you ignore the use of the particle hina:

    "When hina is used with the subjunctive, the mood changes from one of possibility or probability, to one of purpose or result." http://salvationbygrace.org/current-qa/understanding-a-hina-clause/


    Already refuted many times before, e.g.:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...os-based-on-aion.8040292/page-2#post-72110302

    Trouble & distress, not endless, pointless, insane, hopeless, sadistic tortures.

    If God wished to express endless trouble, pain, distress or punishment, then Scripture would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

    Scripture didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because Love Omnipotent didn't believe in endless punishment.


    The "perishing" takes place on a single "day", not forever and ever:

    Rom.2:16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

    The word "perish" is the same Greek word used of the prodigal son who was "lost" and later found, who was dead & became alive again. So those who "perish" can be saved. Is anything too difficult for Love Almighty?

    Condemnation, not endless pointless, sadistic condemnation.

    Rom.8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    Rom.1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Worthy of death, not endless tortures or endless annihilation.


    Paul was only one man & could only be used to save a limited number of people in this mortal life while they & he were still alive. Therefore that verse doesn't address the subject of postmortem salvation, final destiny or universalism. Furthermore, Paul doesn't say some will "never" be saved, nor deny that all will eventually be saved. Neither does he address in Rom.11:14 what he is hoping to save people from, i.e. he doesn't say "save some from endless tortures" or "save some from the lake of fire" or "save some from an eon in Gehenna".

    Rom.11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath imprisoned them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    36 For out of him, and through him, and into him - all: to whom be glory into the eons. Amen.

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

    “In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

    Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

    Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

    "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

    For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  4. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

    +379
    Christian
    I never said you should accept them over BDAG I have pointed out to you time and time again that scripture defines the words used in it and those scriptures just happen to agree with YLT and strong's definition. You on the other hand just keep pointing to BDAG as more of an authority on the meaning of scripture then the scriptures themselves.
     
  5. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

    +379
    Christian
    No, you are the one who brought up what you believe is conflicting scripture to the ones I gave. this is the second time you have reverted to this type of argument, using scripture against scripture, and both times you want me to do your work for you. You brought them up, it is your job to reconcile them.
     
  6. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

    +379
    Christian

    I have answered this many times already. here it is again


    Do you not believe scripture is the word of God?
    Then would not these testimonies be God breathed?


    Now either you believe the scriptures below that testify to Jesus Christ being the saviour of the world are God breathed, or spoken by God Himself or you do not. So which is it? If they are indeed God breathed then why do you not believe their testimony?


    There now you have 7, the number of completion, telling you Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world.

    Before you say something is out of context you should really read it in context.

    Paul is talking to Tim about doctrine and telling him to hold fast to the doctrine given him and not to be seduced by what he calls the doctrine of devils. Paul goes on to tell Tim exactly what doctrine we are commanded to teach which is...

    Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.

    Which just happen to be also what the what all the Prophets taught.

    Acts 3:21



    Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


    Jn.1:29

    The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


    What those who heard Jesus speak taught.

    Jn.4:42

    And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.




    and what the apostle taught.

    2co.5:19

    To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.



    1 jn.2:2

    And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



    1 jn.4:14

    And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son the Saviour of the world.

    Just what greater testimony do you need before you will believe Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world?

    And that is why you are wrong DA, it is not because I say so, it is because of the witnesses above who testify that Jesus Christ IS the saviour of the world.

    Now can you show us all why these testimonies of Jesus Christ are wrong and your belief in eternal torment is correct?
     
  7. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

    +379
    Christian
    read clements post just below this one. He does a good job showing your error in understanding of those verses.
     
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,452
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    I never said you should accept them over BDAG I have pointed out to you time and time again that scripture defines the words used in it and those scriptures just happen to agree with YLT and strong's definition. You on the other hand just keep pointing to BDAG as more of an authority on the meaning of scripture then the scriptures themselves.
    Wrong as usual. Remember this post.
    Funny how scriptures defines words in it when they appear to support your assumptions/presuppositions but when they don't then that's a wrong conclusion and a nonsequitur.
    Link to my post citing 23 passages which literally, actually define/describe aion as eternity and aionios as eternal, everlasting.. which you have never addressed.
    [post #60]
     
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,452
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    No he does not. All he does is copy/paste canned arguments from his pet UR websites which do not specifically address anything I post.
     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,452
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Not one single verse which is quoting Jesus or God saying that they will save all men good or evil, no matter what.
     
  11. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

    +498
    Christian
    Married
    You keep telling yourself that.
     
  12. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

    +379
    Christian
    I don't know who this butch guy you keep referring to, but it's not me. And I don't have to go over every single scripture you post about aion and its adjective when scripture actually tells us they have a beginning and an end. So if scripture tells us they have a beginning and an end the you are obviously wrong.
     
  13. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

    +379
    Christian
    sure it does but you do not want to see it.
     
  14. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

    +379
    Christian
    You keep waffling on many things here DA. Everyone reading can see it.

    If scripture is the word of God and those scriptures tell us Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world who else but God is telling you Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world? Thus every verse I quoted is a quote from God.

    So again I will ask you what greater testimony do you need before you will believe Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world?
     
  15. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

    +379
    Christian
    Hi butch seems DA thinks we are the same person, how he came up with that I will never know. specially when he quotes me (pneuma) and then turns right around and quotes you as something he believes I had said.
     
  16. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

    +498
    Christian
    Married
    Hey! I'm the other guy who keeps showing him that Jesus spoke of the end of the age and that aion is used in Scripture of finite periods of time.
     
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,452
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    And what exactly do you think that proves? There are 200+ figures of speech used in the Bible. One of those is hyperbole, which actually is derived for the Greek word υπερβολην/uperbolén. I could give examples but it probably would be a waste of time.
    Merriam-Webster
    Hyperbole or, Exaggeration. When more is said than is literally meant (epauxesis, hyperroche, hyperthesis, superlatio)
    See Bullinger's "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible," p. 423
    https://archive.org/stream/figuresofspeechu00bull#page/422

     
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,452
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    You keep waffling on many things here DA. Everyone reading can see it.
    If scripture is the word of God and those scriptures tell us Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world who else but God is telling you Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world? Thus every verse I quoted is a quote from God.

    So again I will ask you what greater testimony do you need before you will believe Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world? <end>
    No waffles I prefer pancakes. Do you believe that,
    “the whole world is under the control of the evil one” 1 John 5:19
    “Satan, who leads the whole world astray” Revelation 12:9
    “The whole world … followed the beast” Revelation 13:3
    “Diana …, whom all Asia and the world worships.” Acts of the apostles 19:27
    Satan is “the god of this world.” 2 Corinthians 4:4
    What we still do not have is any Bible writer directly quoting God or Jesus saying that all mankind good and bad, will be saved. But here is what Jesus Himself says,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these [on the left] shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.
    .....Unlike the UR crowd I consider Jesus to be the standard not Paul or John or other NT writers. I interpret the writings of Paul et al. to agree with what Jesus said. On the other hand UR-ites reinterpret the words of Jesus so that they do not mean what they literally say in order to make them agree with the UR interpretation of Paul et al.

     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private
    BDAG refers to hyperbole usage for certain words, but never for aion & aionios. Evidently BDAG opposes your hyperbole theory. In fact you've never quoted a single source in the past 5000 years that agrees with your theory.

    "The second English edition, closely following its German model, gave "brother" as the general meaning of the word and then listed five, more specialized meanings or usages, viz., (1) literal, (2) figurative" http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2001/2001-06-01.html
     
Loading...